A1a: we live in a causal universe A1b: every effect has a cause A2a: if we follow that chain back far enough we reach “the beginning of our universe” A2b: If an in-universe cause preceded this, it is not “the beginning of our universe” Therefore our universe began with an external cause;
B1: premise A1 is foundational to discerning truth through science B2: premise A2 is a tautology. Therefore arguing against A requires you to argue against the validity of the foundation of using science to discern knowledge.
Sure, every single tiny thing in creation is part of Gods plan. Apart from the foreskin right ? Better chop that off.
Brandon Ross
Read Kant and Schoepenhauer you midwit. Cause and effect is a never ending infinite cycle. There is no beginning of the universe, it just goes on forever. The universe is nothing but phenomenon.
Camden Young
because causality is attribute of our universe alone, outside of it there is nothing suggesting effect cannot preceed a cause. quantum mechanics is a bitch
Adrian Lopez
And also how do you think causality applies to "external causes"? causality is merely a construction of our minds, it only deals with the universe as it appears to our senses, it tells us nothing about how things actually are.
Xavier Jones
You seem to be so obsessed with a single god you can’t even consider diesm without lashing out against your imaginary sky fairy you don’t even believe in
Wierd, right? Care to try again?
Ethan Hughes
>2043 >still believing that we came from an explosion Atheists are pure LOLZ. Go back to church and accept Jesus as your only savior, son, there is still time to save your soul from damnation. Also, stop masturbate to lolicon and traps.
Jayden Allen
>some niggers I didn’t understand seemed to imply shit could happen for no reason. >therefore I believe in Magic Are you pretending?
Address the argument.
Daniel Wood
>causality is imaginary. Things happen for no reason. See argument B
how so you assume that cause always happens "before" the effect, im pointing out its not always necessarily true
Aiden Gutierrez
First off, you aren’t,.
Second off, in such a situation that you were correct you would be misatributing cause and effect. And you can’t prove otherwise.
Your entire faith is built around effectless causes and causeless effects; something that is definitively anti-scientific.
Which was my point, atheists hate science,
Evan Davis
This is like analytical philosophy for toddlers. Haha. Jfc this board.
Isaiah Morgan
Our board has intellectual toddlers. Argue, accept the necessity, or move onl
Henry Lee
>Therefore our universe began with an external cause;
it's fair to suppose that, without further evidence, I guess...
However, can you prove that this "External Cause" was anything like literally ANYTHING in any of your holy books?
use the same rigorous logic, now.
Jack Young
Gotta point out we’ve had a few belligerents and none have even attempted to address the argument.
Wierd? Right? If there was an error it would be so easily pinpointed by big rain atheists.
Aaron Hernandez
My holy books? Seems like you are attempting a straw man argument to avoid addressing the proof
I mentioned no holy books and no deity.
Can you feel your own desperation?
Andrew Kelly
I used to argue with people at parties about this stuff--or anything, really--and what would happen is that the other person (the kind op is talking about) would inevitably pull out their phone and try rebut my argument with a Ted Talk clip or something.
>"He definitely addresses that and totally refutes it. Just watch. I think it was this video..."
So you can see that the essential quality at work is pure credulity in the face of celebrity authority.
The jewel is inability to defend a personal position. They can’t. None of them can. They chose a poor position for reasons beyond logic.
Ian Morgan
>I mentioned no holy books and no deity. >Can you feel your own desperation?
You were addressing Atheists in your OP post.
Meaning that you are NOT an Atheist.
So, which holy book do you pray to?
Lucas Allen
So few responses, is Jow Forums truly a Christian board?
If not, why can’t atheists rebut?
Jacob Phillips
Are you really this fucking braindead? Are you pretending to be retarded?
Look up deism, and try not to dwell there too long,
>obligatory indication you have zero arguments.
Hudson Hernandez
then why are you proselytizing?
Josiah Hall
I have no problem with controlled evolution.
My problem is christmutt, jews and moslems shoving their jew god into it.
Nathaniel Parker
I have to add, you are a zealot. You don’t understand or recognize that, but that is what you are.
You turned a purely logical proof of the existence of a creator into an ideological argument about which creator is correct even though you “don’t believe” in a creator.
You are a blind unthinking fool.
Address my proof or fuck off.
Aiden Bennett
the position of atheist or theist is a non-starter. Anyone who uses science can only claim to be agnostic. If you want to discuss the validity of any particular RELIGIONS, however, it is quite obvious that essentially all of them are wrong. Especially the abrahamic faiths.
I would have to ask why you are using words you don’t know the meaning of and why you are avoiding the topical argument
Is it because you can’t find a fault in it?
Hunter White
Imagine being so stupid you can’t briefly show how stupid stupid people arguments are.
Michael Green
Not an argument Feel free to try again (you won’t)
Camden Anderson
Some version of you comes here every day, it's so tiresome, you should understand how many others have come here and said the same things over and over, been rebutted or not, ad nauseum.
Jackson Bailey
And an agnostic would never claim god doesn’t exist, right?
Stop pretending to be retarded.
Tyler Thompson
Explain free will you LARPing faggot
Hard mode: dont reply unless you actually have free will
Cameron Allen
i dont have to, cuz its true
Kevin Powell
Why is it always american with the dumb christianity worship?
inb4 jesus isn't a jew/judean inb4 muh judean is aryan
Camden Diaz
Wait, you have heard countless arguments against my position but rather than simply present them you decided to be a big gay? Powerful.
Certainly you will dismantle my proof at any moment, despite taking time to explicitly not do so,
David Mitchell
>tfw it’s so true you have no argument. Atheists, everyone.
>And an agnostic would never claim god doesn’t exist, right? An agnostic would claim "I don't know if a god exists or not." Would it then be rational for the agnostic to live as though he "knows" a god is real? And how would this agnostic know what this god wants? Your turn.
James Wood
I can’t wven imagine how someone would perceive this to be a meaningful enough response to click 4 cars.
Seriously, I’m so retarded yet NOOONE. Has even attempted at addressing my OP.
Perhaps you are all just religious fanatic NPCs, since otherwise you would actually address my proof,
>you are correct >also, dumb fucking questions I’d like to again address you to the OP which has not only been disproven but also Entirely unaddressed.
Ian Bailey
>addressing my OP im not gonna address your cope, there is no God, period, no amount of As or Bs or word plays will change it
Joseph Morales
>You turned a purely logical proof of the existence of a creator
No, I did not.
It's not a logical proof, it's mere speculation.
We don't have enough data to conclusevly prove ANYTHING like you were asserting, I merely took it as a hyperbolic hypothesis, and attempted to refute the central thesis of your argument, that you are trying to create converts towards your religion....
Since this isn't the place for general social interaction, especially on metaphysical topics, and is instead a board dedicated to politics, I guess I assumed that the purpose of this thread is for politics......
So, are you off topic or not?
Elijah Brooks
>I have no arguments and I have a position based entirely on faith rather than logic or science,
I’m okay with this,
Eli Lopez
>Is it because you can’t find a fault in it?
can't find fault in what? your opening argument?
I can find several arguments against it.
We don't know enough about the universe to say really anything about it, so most of your original axioms are just wrong, thus your argument has no basis on reality.
sound logic upon a false premise isn't sound logic.
Ryder Smith
>assuming that there is a beginning
Jackson Gray
You abviously don’t know what the logical term “proof” means and also have no logical arguments against my proof,
As a guess, you are a dumbfuck who isn’t even capable of being wrong in the arena you stepped into.
Feel free to try again, the argument is at the top of the page.
Parker Peterson
>add numbers and letters and call it logic and science lmao
Past, hey retard: how about presenting one or more of the multiple arguments you have,
Ryder Campbell
I addressed your OP completely by calling it a non-starter. It does not mean anything, and I explained why... atheists and theists likewise deny science and logic. The only scientific position is that of an agnostic.
Now you're not answering the questions I asked you at all. Why would an agnostic live his life as a theist? The starting position for agnosticism is living like an atheist. How does an agnostic know who to pray to, or what to call some sort of being that might have created everything?
These were rhetorical, of course. An agnostic would not have any clue what god would be responsible for creation, just like how he wouldn't have any clue on how this god would want him to act.
Carson Smith
Is this schizophrenia?
Zachary Hill
nigger, our universe does not equate to the beginning of time. But I dont expect nazi kikes with maga hats disrupting their energy flows to understand simple concepts.
Eli Turner
This is a 12 year old's idea of what god is like
Lincoln Green
>have no logical arguments against my proof,
we don't know enough about the "beginning" of the universe to say anything about it.
Your conclusion is based on a false premise.
Ayden Gonzalez
>atheists and theists likewise deny science and logic. This is the best response I have ever gotten
Atheists never use logic, especially when it involves god. >are human beings alone in the universe? “Of course not, the universe is so large that human beings can’t even accurately comprehend its size so the odds of us being alone in the universe is nearly 0%. There are millions, if not billions of stars in the sky, and any one of them could potentially have a planet orbiting it that could contain life, intelligent or otherwise. Given these facts, I think we can accurately say that humans are not alone in the universe just by the sheer size of the number of possibilities alone” >is there a possibility that God exists somewhere in this nearly-infinite universe? “Of course not.”
Kevin Wood
Be more specific. Aka: make an argument.
Jordan Cruz
Worth noting that in a secular universe it is still totally possible earth contains the only advanced life forms, but fuck that because math based on nothing,
Adam Powell
If ur god is so fucking great why don't you go ahead and name one good thing he's done for you're miserable fucking existence?
Thomas Peterson
it would be funny seeing religiouscuck cope when an alien 100x more advanced lands on their church
Connor Miller
>Oh, so causes preceded effects then?
yup, that's how it works.
Angel Taylor
You are not going to get an answer because atheists are absolute fucking brainlets that lack imagination. Their only arguments revolve around "muh skydaddy" fallacy and "i'm too good for religion so I'll just poke holes in the expired dogma of the day"; in neither case do they ever have an answer for the vacuum they've created in explaining their own pitiful existence. Since atheists can't present any evidence that there is no God their hypothesis is actually less scientific than a theists. It's quite humorous actually.
Oliver Harris
Then I’ll have to refer you to the OP while I roll my eyes.
I’m aware. This argument as deliberately constructed to pit their competing gods against each other, I’m actually surprised this Fare into the thread no one has denounced science outright, which generally happens,
Ryder Turner
hard to find evidence against something that doesnt exist, so if it doesnt exist then it doesnt exist, no need for evidence, checkmate christcuck
Itt: brainlets getting fucked by Aquinas of Jow Forums
Caleb Edwards
You seem to have failed to present an argument, Would you like a second chance?
Kevin Young
Religion is complete degeneracy, there's not a bigger falsehood and rabbit hole than relgion.
I can except the fact that maybe there is a god, but he clearly isn't on our fucking side.
William Price
>every child has a mother >therefore the mother of all children exists Why should there be only 1 first cause and not 10 of then? Or 58934?
Oliver Cooper
I read through your thread and it seems to me you just had your logic 101 classes but forgot your basic philosophy classes. The first cause "argument" has been discussed numerous amounts of time. But sure, you know better, OP. Make yourself feel smart.
>he's not a brainlet atheist therefore he must be a christcuck It's all so tiresome
Connor Ramirez
The only evidence christcucks have are there mentally ill spazms about how "aMaZing" god is.
That's why it's not valid
Daniel Edwards
why do a dozen of these threads pop up all at once
Matthew Lee
While I appreciate the credit, it is actually different to Aquinas. Aquinas poorly assigned several qualities to our creator that are not logically sound (within his construct) and I intentionally juxtaposed the necessity of god against the atheist’s last stand of science.
When both logic and science demand god, the atheist becomes (in my experience) quite deranged. I very much enjoy atheists denouncing science because it leaves them in quite the predicament.
It hasn’t happened yet this thread (though also zero arguments have) I imagine once people start providing reasonable arguments against OP we will see atheists denounce science.
Jayden Lee
Are you trying to argue that there wasn’t a beginning to the human race? Or life in general?
Please help me follow your argument,
Alexander Jackson
Baka your argument has the implicit premise that there is one and only one first cause. From a purely logical point of view there is absolutely no reason why there couldn't be 10 or 100 or 1000... first causes. Another example: every car has been manufactured, so there exists the one single manufacturer of all cars?
Cameron Bell
>Magic man everything >Everything was made by something >Except magic man
I understand this isn't actually the argument that Aquinas made, just drawing a parallel to your application of logic to the problems of theology.
As an aside, I'm curious if you believe there must exist only 1 God. In your proof you didn't preclude the idea the the universe was created by a set of simultaneous causes, rather than a singular one.
Joseph King
There is one thing your logic misses: there doesn't have to be a first cause if the causality chain is infinite. To phrase it differently: the universe (or, for a lack of a better word, the "omniverse", if you will") could as well just have "been" here - forever.
Noah Bell
Is the existence of two or several thousand gods a valid argument against the existence of a creator of our universe?
Robert Morris
I do believe there must exist exactly one god. That doesn’t mean our universe was made by that god. I hate to give credence to Gnosticism but yeah, the window is open.
But this isn’t really a thread about theology so much as logic. Our universe was created by a supernatural being/force. This is the argument presented which has yet to even be addressed.
Sebastian Thomas
You seem to be retarded. We live in a created causal universe. That doesn’t mean the creator has a similar situation.
People can design cars, but people don’t need gasoline to run.
Adrian Davis
Assuming the causality chain is infinite is not only ridiculous, contrary to scientific thought, but also doesn’t address the argument presented.
You avoided the argument by presenting an unprovable hypothesis with no backing while still ignoring the actual argument,
Why would you presume an infinite chain of existence on faith alone? Especially in light of all evidence that the universe is approaching heat death?
Are you trying to make a claim contrary to all scientific thought based on faith alone and expecting respect for your position?
Is your position somehow special or better in tune with our current knowledge of the universe, or is it so,etching that makes you feel better and that’s all that matters?
Juan Torres
Also my proof was inspired by the mistakes Aquinas made.
He definitely had a hand in my proof, but he made many mistakes and wasn’t actually trying to convince non-believers.
Aquinas want to prove the Christian god as logically evident, which was a mistake from the start. But he did lay the groundwork for proving a creator was logically evident. He just tried too hard.
Matthew Lopez
224315606 >A1 steak sauce. >Derrr. Where universe come from? Needs cause.
I can't explain so nothing ever will Therefore theology? Lots of physics theories, lots of grand design ideas.
Now 1: intelligent deity exists and makes universe. 2: op is a faggot.
Therefore deity is responsible for OPs faggotry.
Jackson Anderson
you know in the begining there was nothing, and then god said let their be light. could that be gods way of explaining the big bang through divine inspiration? i don't understand this obsession with taking genesis completely literally when its clear from context thats not how its meant to be. its like song of solomon is clearly poetic but the creation story can't possibly be explaining the big bang evolution and the enlightenment and downfall of man. its a literal tree and theres a snake and a snake and thats final. frankly its bizarre and its helping kill faith in the west.