Hows that free market working out for you, idiots?

“Muh dik”

the cold war was basically over by 1990 you retard. there would be no reason for the CIA to lie about that.

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Commies lack understanding of GDP
If the government pays a guy to fix the roads,
and there's 2 offers. One for 100 dollars, and one for 1 million dollars. if the government chooses the million dollar option their GDP increases. In other words GDP does not indicate growth or decline of an economy

Literally every country on that list is capitalist.

Literally every country on that list has at least relatively free, liberal, open, global markets, including 2019 China and , arguably 1990 Soviet Union (post-glasnost / pereistroika; they still had command economy but developed market reforms).

Using GDP to argue against the free market is retarded because even onions commies will admit that capitalism is the best mode of production for producing wealth; they just don't like how it's distributed.

>everything I like is capitalism

a retard's guide to understanding economics. capitalism isn't actually an economy where capitalists own the major economic forces, it's whatever I can worm my way into redefining it to be just to damage control China or the USSR.

>theODORra.com

just lmao

trtworld.com/europe/how-oil-prices-impact-russia-s-economy-22067

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How did you convert the GDP of the Soviet Union, non-idiot?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_ruble

>current meme age
>not inheriting your land and domiciles from your family after how many thousands of years of chances to save something up for the next generation
what a fucking ch00b

>onions

lol phoneposting
i meant "Onions"

Are you telling me right now that the USSR and the CCP weren't/aren't state capitalist?

Are you telling me that the Deng Xiaoping and Gorbachev reforms straight up didn't happen?

Socialism is when workers own their means of production, and labor with those means as they please, since they're the ones that own it. If the state owns the means of production, and demands labor output from the workers in order to compete with capitalist empires, that's state capitalism.

Capitalism isn't "an economy where capitalists own the major forces", that phrase doesn't even make any sense, communist retard. Who are the "capitalists"? What are the "major forces"? Capitalism is a mode of production where the means of production are owned and operated by private entities, and workers commodify and sell their labor-power to those private entities, therefore not having any control over the means of production or ownership of the fruits of their labor.

If the state owns the means of production, and the state is a dictatorship that is not democratically elected by laborer's (i.e.: not a proletariat dictatorship, but more like just Mao's/Stalin's dictatorship), then the workers do not own or control the means of production. The state, which cannot be held accountable by their laborers, own the means of production, and the workers sell their labor to the state.

If you stopped sucking tranny cocks and actually read the work of your heroes, you'd realize that even Lenin admitted this. His idea of communism developing from Russia's peasant feudalism that had not reached the late-stage post-industrialist capitalism that Marx required for a successful communist revolution meant a "stopgap" period where you'd have "state capitalism" where the state owns and controls everything without democratic appeal while they get the industrial show on the road, but then after that you get communism, I promise guize. Communist retard.

>"Onions" again

Holy fuck. I meant S O Y I M. ONIONS. ONIONS.

>free market
That is a model in a text book. It doesn't exist in nature.

WHAT THE FUCK?

S O Y I M
ONIONS
ONIONS

S
O
Y
I
M

ONIONS
ONIONS

I am being outed as a newfag or something because I do not remember Jow Forums fucking with me and turning "onions" to onions.

you are retarded. capitalism is not just someone owning something you moron. you don't know anything about what you're talking about.

capitalism = dictatorship of the bourgeoisie

meaning a state where the ruling class, the capitalist class, has suprememe power and control over everyone. like the United States

that's why, for example, Venezuela is not really a capitalist state despite having a huge private economy. it's a state that supresses the bourgeoisie and is moving away from their tyranny.

ITT:mad hoes

Soviet union had countries pump wealth into it. What a achievement. Todays russian economy is what theyre capable of and it wont get any better because they are all low iq subhuman slaves.

What even is your country?

get back in the union you baltic ape

LMAO, holy fuck, I thought communists were supposed to be good at reading.

I said "capitalism is when you have private ownership of the means of production and workers commodify their labor for wages", and you read "Capitalism is when you own things."

And then you reply that you think capitalism is when you kill rich people or something.

Seriously, when you get to graduate school, which is the only thing a communist can do in the US besides sit in his mom's basement and smoke weed all day, they're gonna expect you to read extremely obscure shit like Bakunin and Fischer, man. If you can't handle basic fucking Marx you're going to be lost, retard.

at least Estonia exists today, while the Soviet Union only shows up in your dreams

Lenin argued the state should temporarily run the economy, which would eventually be taken over by workers. To Lenin, "state capitalism" did not mean the state would run most of the economy, but that "state capitalism" would be one of five elements of the economy:
State capitalism would be a step forward as compared with the present state of affairs in our Soviet Republic. If in approximately six months' time state capitalism became established in our Republic, this would be a great success and a sure guarantee that within a year socialism will have gained a permanently firm hold.

Get BTFO'd illiterate Communist

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Lend Lease
Marshall Plan all given to the eastern Kikes stolen from those allotted
Credits
and massive
western subsidies

and still no food

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How do you measure GDP when all the prices are fixed and everything is made by the government?

you are the one with a fundamental misunderstanding of marxism and socialism in general.

>Bakunin is obscure

every other leftie in america is an anarchist

>I heard the term state capitalism being used once and have to keep repeating it

you're embarrassing yourself. what Lenin was referring to as state capitalism was the NEP. which was actual capitalism, but regulated by teh state.

>commie government makes a big statue to their leader
>commie government adds cost of statue to their GDP
>commies still have nothing to eat

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>USSR and China aren't capitalist!! They're not!! You don't know what Communism is!!

>Links definition of state capitalism that literally matches up exactly with what I said, including fucking quotes from Lenin himself who said that he wanted Russia to be state capitalist "just as a stopgap measure you guize i promise we'll be socialist later"

>i'm still the one with a fundamental misunderstanding

Bakunin isn't obscure to you because you're a retarded navel-gazing communist (who still is apparently illiterate and doesn't know what state capitalism means), but to every normal, functioning human being on the planet who just gets up and gets a job instead of inventing retarded abstract models for why the world is unfair, yes, he is obscure.

>boomer tier no food jokes
i often forget just how many boomers invaded this place

True we did get btfo but hey at least we all get to morally decays for the next 50 years together

Again, what Lenin called state capitalism and what some wikipedia dweeb decided to call state capitalism are not the same thing. The USSR and Mao's China did not reach socialism but they were building socialism.

How was the USSR not "an economic system in which the state undertakes commercial, for-profit economic activity, using surplus value to invest in future production"?

How were Gorbachev and Deng Xiaoping not doing liberal, free market reforms?

Unironic non rhetorical questions.

And how much people do these countries have in comparison? How much of that wealth will the average person see? Communism never works out for the people.

i think you meant to say capitalism

>Commies send agitators and spies into our countries and neighbors
>Stoo doing business with them, take steps to ensure they don't start a revolution like a normal country
>REEEEEE RACIST FASCIST NAZI WHITE SUPREMACISF IMPERIALISTS ARE KILLING US ALL, THEY'RE THE REAL REASON FOR ALL THE DEATHS WHY WON'T YOU LET US LEECH OFF YOU

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*stop

So you admit USSR/China were state capitalist that were "building" socialism? But then before they did anything to suggest actual workers owning the means of production (like, having worker's democracy for starters) and they weren't just state capitalists, they totally unluckily and completely coincedentally got people like Deng Xiaoping and Gorbachev that just said "Ah, fuck it, this pie in the sky Commie shit doesn't work, let's just liberalize it"?

your definitions are so incredibly subjective it's just an excuse to label anyone you don't like as bourgeois and tyrannical. Kinda like nazi. Commies aren't very strong in logic and consistency.

Because there was no for-profit activity in the USSR under Lenin or Stalin. The whole concept of profit was removed because there was no capitalism.

youtube.com/watch?v=wcXZSVM6Nps

>How were Gorbachev

Gorbachev was blatantly a socdem, maybe not even that. Jury's still out on Deng's reforms and whether they lead to actual socialism.

Safe bet it's far better than your delusional utopian thought experiment, faggot.

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Wow, it only takes the manpower of a literal billion more people to make take a distant second place to the US. Is communism truly /our system/?

is this bait or are you just retarded?

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The state extracted the laborer's surplus value in order to reinvest in production, because they wanted a command economy to compete with capitalist countries.

That phrase? "Extracted the laborer's surplus value"? Yeah, that's the definition of profit.

>Jason Unruhe
LOL

>Jury's still out on Deng's reforms
...Are you seriously suggesting that 2019 China is not just capitalist? I have to ask this question before deciding whether I want to broach and engage with someone so retarded they think that China in 2019 is not just a capitalist country, just with the CCP's tentacles in every industry.

>hows that free market working out for you, idiots?
pretty good actually you disgusting useless eater fag

lets see if you will still sing the same tune in the future, i doubt it

This
Everyone always focuses on US, Russia, or China but the kings of GDP per capita are easily Japan

Libs really want to pretend to China is one of them.

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>is a post on pol that angers me bait
Whether it was or not you played yourself

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The surplus value didn't go to any capitalist. It went to financing the economy and investment in the people, hence it's not perpetuating capitalism or for-profit enterprise. That's why it's not profit.

>...Are you seriously suggesting that 2019 China is not just capitalist? I have to ask this question before deciding whether I want to broach and engage with someone so retarded they think that China in 2019 is not just a capitalist country, just with the CCP's tentacles in every industry.

I don't consider a country that uses capitalism to abolish capitalism capitalist. That's what Lenin did with the NEP. I think it can be argued that China is using capitalism to boost itself to a level of economic sufficiency where they can move into socialism. The CCP being as powerful as it is lends credence to the dengist argument. Whereas Gorbachev was literally just trying to reform the USSR into a social democracy.

im merely just asking a question comrade

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Pretty great if you're a chingchong, according to that.

>Jason Unruhe
>"Maoist Rebel"

The original fat, chinless zoy goy; imagine worshiping a dictator that oversaw a 60+ year economic flatline and wearing his name as a badge of honor

businessinsider.com/time-lapse-videos-satellite-images-china-infrastructure-change-2017-7

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It doesn't matter if the guy taking the surplus value is a boss who's like "yeah, I need this to reinvest in the business" or the government who's like "yeah, I need this to put it back in the economy so we beat those American pigs". If you are a laborer, and you and you other laborers do not own the means of production, and your surplus value is being extracted by a force that owns the means of production, privately, without any of your consent, it is not socialism.

>C-C-China is just using capitalism to boost itself to a level of economic sufficiency where it can move into socialism!

>flat out admitting that you need capitalism to develop economic sufficency

>this was literally the argument that Russia used ("trust us guize we won't privatize, we just need capitalism in the interim!")

Just listen to the fucking retarded words that's coming out of your mouth, man. "We're not just gonna be capitalist until the end of time, we're USING capitalism to ABOLISH capitalism, trust us, one of these days we're gonna round up all these Huawei guys that have been making us fucking bank and we'll get rid of them and you factory people that we give so few fucks about we make your kids work here, you guys will own everything, trust me, guys, trust me."

This is like if I walked into your apartment and raped your wife and said, "no, trust me, I just need to rape to boost myself to a level of self-confidence suffiency to go out and stop other rapes, I'm actually using rape to abolish rape".

>The US has had the largest economy since 1871

Ftfy. I know, free enterprise is awesome isn't it.

What exactly do you think this proves? You are comparing GNP to GDP for some reason. Also, even commie countries have money change hands. What is the per capita GDP of these places shill?

Yeah, these USSR/China apologists are so retarded, lol. At least retarded s o y i m anarkiddies know enough to admit that capitalism is the best system for producing wealth, they're just angry they're not getting a bigger chunk of it because they got fired from their Starbucks job for showing up high all the time.

Mao wasn't in power for 60 years you dunce. And he didn't oversee an economic flatline. In fact he industrialized the country. Deng just leased out shit Mao built and established trade relations.

That's literally what Marx said to do. Thanks for confirming you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about, please move along now. No more time wasting.

they have a right to be angry, it should be legal to be high at work, revolutionize the workplace

No, Marx said that you needed late-stage post-industrial capitalism in order for the proletariat to develop class consciousness and stage a worker's revolution to establish a dictatorship of the proletariat.

He didn't say that to establish a murderous dictatorship in his name when your country is still just pre-industrialized peasant farmers, and then once you get to the point where you have post-industrialized technocratic capitalism, still have an undemocratic dictatorship for 40 years while the proletariat have exactly 0% increased chance of owning the means of production.

Chinese economic reform started in 1978. It is now 2019. 41 years and there is exactly no sign that they have gotten any closer to the "abolishing" part of "using capitalism to abolish capitalism".
Tell me, do you honestly think that at any point in the next 50 years, that China will be so " economically self-sufficient" that the Chinese are going to rise up and revolt and establish a dictatorship of the proletariat?

I sincerely hope this is ironic.

If not, I'm screenshotting it and getting it printed on a shirt.

im deadly serious, literally all drugs should be legal, collectively owned and given out for free

Since when was Eastern Europe considered part of the USSR? Sure they were communist and sure they took orders from Moscow but they weren't controlled by autonomous Soviets of the Soviet Union, they were their own countries.

And yet you want others to believe that communists are smart.

This is not exactly why socialist GDP is not comparable. Point is in market economy if something is produced it will inevitably be sold and consumed more or less effectively, cause consumer or company higher in production chain have all incentives to buy less. While in planned economy large part of production is spent inefficiently or just rotten in warehouses. So basically you produce a ton of steel but out of that ton you only make one spoon.

The communist party has been in power for close to 100 years and Dengism has only been a "thing" for well under half of that time.

>Deng just leased out shit Mao built and established trade relations

Easily proven false by statistics and aerial photographs. Both manufacturing output and overall capacity were greatly accelerated under Deng and his contemporaries.

stlouisfed.org/publications/regional-economist/april-2016/chinas-rapid-rise-from-backward-agrarian-society-to-industrial-powerhouse-in-just-35-years

There's that legendary British sense of humor we all know and love.

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I love the free market so much!
As long as I am smarter and work harder than at least 50% of the people I know I shall live comfortably all the days of my life.

Funny thing how Socialists call capitalists greedy for accumulating wealth, but taking it for themselves without working for it, isn't?

HAHAA

Marx was wrong about many things, but the basic concept of using capitalism to boost yourself and create economic stability is absolutely in line with Marxism. Marx never denied that capitalism is good at things like industrializing or technology.

What Marx was wrong about was the idea that the proletariat in all countries will have more or less the same experience. That's not what happened. The industrial countries used their leg up to exploit the third world, imperialism. Hence it was no longer really possible for all working people to rise up. From there on of course one capitalist empire rose up and attempted to crush, destroy, sanction, bomb, invade, every attempt at any kind of socialist and even left wing revolution. That's why left wing countries typically adopted a very authoritarian style of government. When they didn't, they got Allende'd. So you're being retarded and just divorcing things from all context. The USSR was a state that fought to build socialism to the bitter end, against the US. Cuba is fighting to build socialism, DPRK is, they are all communist countries in the sense that they are fighting against western capitalism and imperialism.

>they think im joking
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh
dont you realize the revolutionary potential of free drugs for all? the productivity increases, new ideas and a greater sense of being

Marx predicted that in capitalism proletariat will be thrown into absolute poverty, retard

>close to 100 years

Chinese revolution happened in 1949, dummy. Deng came to power in 78. That's 30 years.

>Easily proven false by statistics and aerial photographs. Both manufacturing output and overall capacity were greatly accelerated under Deng and his contemporaries.

woah they continued industrializing after Mao died. no way.

they are in absolute poverty. people in the third world eat dirt mixed with oil. first world proles live well off imperialism.

Whenever I feel like I'm failing in my life, whether it be my career or personal accomplishments like weightlifting or life skills, I remember there are people like you at there. Who literally just want the government to give them their drugs. You are the spitting image of the Chapo failson.

"New ideas and a greater sense of being". Holy shit, LMFAO. These are grown men we are talking about here. "Please give me heroin, for, uhh, new ideas and greater sense of being."

So fighting for socialism is when you just have normal capitalism except it's under a dictatorship, that never actually has ever materialized in "real" socialism in an entire century, except it's good because you're fighting against Western capitalism. Got it. Thanks.

I will give you this, though - I do like Castro. He was an extreme Chad. Glow in the dark CIA niggers hired an ex-lover to murder him, and she showed up to his apartment, and he literally gave her a gun and said "Kill me if you can", and she couldn't, and then they fucked.

He visited the US without even wearing a bulletproof vest while Cuck US politicians hid in limousines behind bulletproof windows like rats. Also, he would've killed retarded faggots like you, either because you're a faggot or you're retarded.

Yeah, this too, the idea that people in industrialized nations could get wealthier totally throws a wrench in the whole Marxist accelerationist plot, lol

90% of USA posters here are living with mom and dad and don't work.

When they're independent and the gibs run out, they will get sick once and go bankrupt.

They will then pray to capitalism to give them money.

Retard people in Africa always were eating shit, under capitalism they are not dying fron hunger at least. They are not industrial workers and they dont take part in capitalist production to begin with. Stop denying reality.

reminder that china is a racial state and always will be, despite what talmudic sidestep you bugsheviks come up with to continue ignoring genetics in your world theory

Yes, holy shit, I was thinking about this too while arguing with this retarded bugperson. The reason the CCP has it's tentacles in every facet of Chinese capitalism isn't because they're sekritly using capitalism to abolish capitalism, it's because the Chinese people are inherently collectivist and put their identity as a cog in the greater Chinese machine way above their identity as free individuals. They've been like that for literally thousands of years.

it is barbaric, counter-revolutionary and authoritarian to deny people their right to try mind enhancing substances

I don't give a shit what you think about Castro and your retarded arguments you heard from some fat leftcom. The CIA used this tactic all the time during the cold war.

youtu.be/PLDcW8ensIs

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Comrade, why are you even in this racist far-right cesspit?

No I don't think people injecting themselves in the urethra with black tar heroin is going to increase productivity fren. I don't think drugs that are dangerously addictive and debilitating should be legal but I do think that most should be.

It's funny how I'm pretty sure you're both right; Marx never saw his own contradiction though. The fact is we (in the US) are but it's all through anti-competitive legislation, foreign plundering (unsustainable immigration levels, remittances) and decades of one sided undeclared trade warfare. It goes without saying but n-words are a factor in this, as well.

>I don't give a shit about argument
>I don't give a shit about reality
>What some bearded fatass wrote 200 years ago is ultimate truth
Typical communist religious mentality

your idea of someone who takes heroin is skewed, lots of "celebrities" and people who look good do heroin quite often, your idea of a heroin addict is someone living in the gutter and looks messy, that isnt because of the heroin that is because them being criminalized and the lack of any real economic support and mental health support

Marx fucking wrote that effectiveness will grow, wages fall and norm of profit fall at the same time. Not contradicting at all.

>getting angry at people for doing things for the greater good

merishit confirmed, as if the stench of diarrhea didn't give it away

Because as a Communist, he's homosexual and submissive, and likes getting intellectually gangbanged and dominated by people 100 times smarter than he is. Also I love when 25 year old fat people that live in Brooklyn LARP as Bolsheviks and say "comrade" like they wouldn't have been the first to die in Stalingrad because their fingers got too cold to pull the trigger.

Fat leftcom?

You literally said yourself that socialism has not been acheived yet, only "fought for", and that somehow you need a dictatorship that presides over a state capitalist society in order to fight for socialism, and that capitalist industrialization makes peasants wealthier/more economically "self-sufficient", and this somehow will eventually lead to them eventually hating the system that generated that sufficiency and Marx predicted that the accumulation of capital under capitalism would make peasants more poverse as the value of wage-labor dropped, not the other way around. And despite this fight going on for like, a century, your "fight" is no closer to achieving socialism.

What? I'm not angry at them for being collectivist. I think it's admirable, I just think it's more of a racial/cultural thing and not part of some Marxist plot to bring out socialism.

Jow Forums is a good motivator for doing research and looking into more obscure things, also they get mad

Then read fucking Marx

>ideally monarchical
That way the state doesn't have to leave a paper trail to where the money went.

I tried to tell everyone that is dangerous to tickle the tiger. Life magazine published an article in the early sixties, about the Red Menace. They now have more than a billion population.

>"continued"

Stop pretending like you don't know how to read a chart.

>Greek flag

You literally have a 20% unemployment rate, what the fuck? Fuck you. I could go $100,000 into debt and still take home more of my paycheck than Northern Europeans do. Our problems are quite severe but, like most dunning-kruger Euros you only understand them from a surface level-and only because your schools and media want you to concentrate on our problems instead of thinking about yours.

These countries that survive by taxing their people 50% of every dollar they earn even at the lowest income brackets to pay for the children they aren't having or the healthcare their generally healthy citizens don't need would quickly collapse if they were burdened with a small fraction of what the US has endured up until now. Literally imagine whatever problems your country's economy might be dealing with now but add millions of obese landwhales, low IQ, high impulse niggery diggery doos and black market labor from an illegal immigrant population roughly 10% of the legitimate working population.

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>gdp
It’s an aggregate measurement retard
If you have more land and people, your gdp is higher
>USSR
>Russia
Russia is literally half the population of the USSR, and 1/3 smaller of course the GDP is smaller retard

It doesn't matter if they're city-states. You can always move the next city over if the one you're in is run like shit - if you meet their criteria for admission.

There lies a vested interest in running things responsibly, and operating with a longer time horizon for leadership and administrative planning than democracies offer.