Atheists HATE this!!!!!

Premise 1: everything which has a beginning to its existence has a cause
Premise 2: the universe has a definite beginning in finite past

Therefore, the universe has a cause which is by definition outside of the universe.

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Self-bump to promote the wreckage of atheism

Also if you post a retarded reply, I will mock you savagely

athiest there. You make no sense so can't argue with you. Try again.

Gods dont exist.

Absolute fucking retard. This argument has been around for literally over a thousand years. If it doesn’t make sense to you, it’s because you’re a RETARD

>makes a statement
retard. Memeflag retard. I’m guessing from the IQ Of your post that your memeflag is to cover for the third world 60 IQ SHITHOLE you inhabit

what argument?. Just give one coherent sentence as to what you're implying. Your shit grammar/writing comprehension is tearing up your ideas.

You saying because all of this couldn't have come from nothing then it must have been created by god?.

Where did he come from then?.

>begins to exist
learn to read you fucking idiot.
>muh grammar
oi vey

ok. tried to take you serious. results are you're serious mode legit retarded or seeking attention on Jow Forums possibly all four.

>can’t respond logically
“N-no you”

Gods by definition do not exist. Sorry.

Premise 1 is not justified. Also, the "by definition outside of the universe" part of the conclusion does not follow from the premises.

Premise 1 is the basis for modern science, so I guess you’re denying modern science

And the conclusion follows LOGICALLY from the argument you FUCKING RETARD

Ok Daniel Webster. How do you define retard, by looking in the mirror?

>Use human-invented logic to try and prove god
>"Ok seems legit.."

>Following this logic, the cause must have also had a previous cause, so what created god?
>All of a sudden logic gets thrown out the window and theists delve into meta physics, language restrictive semantics and literal magic
Prove to me that this doesn't happen literally every single fucking thread

OP can't bump threads newfag

>Premise 1 is the basis for modern science
Prove it.
>And the conclusion follows LOGICALLY from the argument
It literally doesn't. The second half is nowhere to be found in the premises, you merely tacked it on.

>begins to exist
Learn to read, tard

No. Retard isnt defined by what is seen in a mirror. Unless you read a dictionary in the mirror of the definition.

But those are both baseless assumptions

Crap argument is crap. Everything in existence has a cause? So where does your unobserved god come from?

It "always was and always will be".. well I say matter, which we all know exists and all know that it cannot be created or destroyed all was and always will be.

But whatever,, for purposes of argument let's just just say a god created the universe. Why did stop creating? Could such a being even perceive an individual human being let only care about what they do? Which ants do you prefer red or black? Maybe god exists and it doesn't matter.

Wow, denying a causal universe is the premise for modern science? Retard.

In a cause and effect universe (premise 1), causes PRECEDE the effect, therefore If the universe BEGAN to exist then the cause must have PRECEDED the universe which is therefore OUTSIDE OF THE UNIVERSE.

STUPID RETARD

So god never "began" to exist?

>begins to exist
Readlet

>wrong

>what is prime mover
Crocodile Dindu

>thinks it’s cool to browse 4 Chan for a long time
Fuck me thats grim

speaking of arguments that have been around for a thousand years...

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>what is prime mover
You tell me, big brain.

Not an argument. Also, saying that everything within the universe is causal therefore the universe itself must be causal as well would be a fallacy.
>which is therefore OUTSIDE OF THE UNIVERSE
Does not follow. Try again.

>the universe has a definite beginning in finite past
WRONG
the big bang never happened, the universe is far older and more terrifying than you know and we are but pathetic chess pieces being manipulated by intelligences fast vaster and older than the human imagination can fathom

If you only knew how bad things are

Holy shit you’re an actual retard. If the universe did not exist then by definition what caused it is OUTSIDE of the universe.

Go to college

Honestly we need to start castrating retards that deny science. If you don't understand it, no kids for you.

Have an upvote, but you’re still a retard

not really a response to the argument.. let's just say your creator god exists,, Why should I give a fuck about it? Why should it mean anything more in my day to day to life than some black hole or quasar a thousand light years away?

You can say it's by definition all you like, but that doesn't make it true. Maybe you should try taking some philosophy or something. I also can't help but notice you have no response to the casual universe part.

Proof?

I never said God was good, tard. And that’s a shit argument

You are objectively below 100 IQ

>memeflag
You’re from Africa

>causal

>I never said God was good, tard.
So he's bad?

Not an argument.

Why does the cause have to be a god

You can not argue logically. You just say “nun-uh” In the face of unassailable logic. You’re a black woman

Ok. Proof tho?

>why does the retard always have to be a leaf

...

Well that's observably false. Come back when you've grown up.

>either/or fallacy
Crocodile DinduNuffin

Holy shit you’re stuoid

there is no existence without absolute rules. freemasons know this and ridicule atheists

Premise 1: everything which has a beginning to its existence has a cause
Premise 2: This conveniently doesn't apply to God, because reasons and stuff

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>I can’t answer your question so I’m just going to insult you like a fucking aspie

Atheists a retarded freaks with small weeners and banana butts

No. user is right that is the flaw in the argument. Statement that everything that has a beginning has a cause is not proven.

You shouldn’t want or try to prove the existence of God anyway. It devalues the act and concept of faith.

The existence of god doesn't matter.

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>denies a causal universe
>denies the basis for science
Pick one and only one. Also you are very dumb

How will op ever recover

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You’re all dumb and I’m awesome. Try again tomorrow

Don't dodge it, I want you to tell me if you think god is good or bad

what is the origin of virtue? In nature deception is a virtue as well as it enhances survival. Why not be deceitful?

Major cope

Fuck off mutt.

I don't think virtue necessarily equates to "increased chance of survival"

A virtuous act would be pushing a child out of the way of a speeding car, only to have yourself hit and killed, in order to save the child. That doesn't enhance survival at all, but we see it as an act of virtue.

So where does your unobserved god come from?

This is basically "If the universe can't create itself, why can God create himself?" The thing about God is it's the answer to the question "What caused the universe to come into existence?" Some call that moment the Big Bang, and it only make sense that God caused the big bang, because the big bang is the effect, and we are witness to the effect and we ask "What is the cause?" The cause is god. God is not an effect that need a cause, the universe is.

Premise 3: my semitic sand cult god made everything because semitic sand cultists wrote the book that says so

that's self sacrifice. what makes it virtuous? I'm not saying it isn't, I'm asking what makes it so

Look if you want to argue creationism you simply argue the complexity of nature.
Vastly complex things are of design. Not happening.
You don't look at a grand piano and assume that came about naturally. It's too complex and too polished. You know it was built. You knew it was built when you were a child.
Same with a house. Same with a car. Same with any man made object.
Yet nature itself and the universe is infinitely more complex than anything mentioned. It has interdependencies abound. Clockwork workings of physics. Invisible force fields that hold all matter together. Codes hidden inside DNA structures.
Saying the universe sprang up from nothing or randomness is like saying the same of the Mona Lisa. Because she's a hell of a lot less complex than our universe, the nature of physics, or our world itself.

Didn't you learn this Kindergarten? If you don't play nice no one will play with you. Empathy is an adaptive trait in humanity. If the belief that your sky daddy will punish you after you die is the only thing keeping you from running amok in a murderous rampage something is wrong with you.

>Premise 1: everything which has a beginning to its existence has a cause
True
Premise 2: This conveniently doesn't apply to God, because reasons and stuff

I love how "reasons and stuff" is enough for you to discredit it. If reasons aren't enough for you, what is?

The reason, of course, is God did not have a beginning, the universe did.

>what makes it virtuous
I can't think of every kind of "virtue" right now, but my immediate thought is that most virtues would seem to involve some sort of "self-sacrifice", whether that's physically, or letting go of your ego, etc.

Maybe it's just anything that requires some sort of "expenditure" on your behalf in order to improve yourself or the life of others?

>God is not an effect that need a cause
Who says?

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I'd put it slightly differently - world without trust is hell as it reduces us to animals. Virtue improves the world for everyone, vice deteriorates it

Because putting other people ahead of yourself means recognizing the importance of humility. Humility is virtuous because without it, man becomes more like a beast than like a man. Further removed from a pure life.

>God is not an effect that need a cause, the universe is.

The solution to this logical problems is dispense with logic entirely and just say it was done by something that the rules don't apply to.

“Who makes the world? Perhaps the world is not made. Perhaps nothing is made. Perhaps it simply is, has been, will always be there…a clock without a craftsman.”

Logic. It's a category fallacy.

And he's testing our faith before divine retribution.

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Without bad there can't be good you objective retard. Fuck off and die.

This doesn't prove the existence of a singular entity, there could be a pantheon of Gods. Supposing that it were a single God, it does t prove its the abrahamic God of Christianity, or Judaism, or Islam.

Lastly, the question becomes what was the origin of the being that created the universe. It hasn't stopped the infinite regression of causality. The answer to the infinite chain of causality is that something must not have had a beginning.

So some basic morality is a logical choice. No god required. Do you think people were just running around murdering each and stealing each other's stuff without a second thought before the ten commandments? Maybe they just made up a god to give their laws so more authority.

God of the Gaps argument. You've proven nothing beyond how much of a lemming you are. God does not exist and nothing about your post disproves that.

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This argument doesn't prove that the original event was sentient, had intent, could pass judgment, and it might as well have been a big bang

Yea I think this is well established the Universe coming from a big bang is like saying that kids come from hospitals. Its true but there are steps before that. While I don't pretend to know what caused that Dirac sea, you are you pretend a sky Jesus did it. Which is dumb, but you can read more on it with your own time.

Close Jow Forums and go get your shit done

All you've done is pull a politicians answer. Someone asked where does the unobserved god come from, and you basically spun it as "that doesn't matter, but the universe exists - so god must too or else it wouldn't be here"

What type of logic dictates one thing needs a cause, but another doesn't and is allowed to be hand waved?

So why do the gods do nothing? All power beings that don't lift a finger.

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"I want you within my goalposts." You are chang, because bruz is ten times more intelligent.

>Lastly, the question becomes what was the origin of the being that created the universe.
There was no origin, He has always been. You've admitted that yourself.
>The answer to the infinite chain of causality is that something must not have had a beginning.

It means there must have been at one point a cause of the universe. What else would you all the "First Cause", a concept of a timeless force that exists outside of the universe and that created it other than God?

>Supposing that it were a single God, it does t prove its the abrahamic God of Christianity, or Judaism, or Islam.

I agree with you here, but before I try to explain why Christianity is true, you first have to accept that there is a God, even if it's just a completely impersonal force of nature that caused the universe to come into being, otherwise you are still an atheist and there's no sense in trying to refine your idea of God, since you don't have one.

What's it got to do with goal posts? The context of the question is based on a quote about god being good or evil - It's a pretty simple question. He could respond "I don't think god has any good or bad intent because it's not a personified entity" if he wants to.

Why does life suck? So we can see the true beauty of the little things. Why should they appease you because you want them to?

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He has, his name was Jesus Christ.

True, but do you accept the idea of a impersonal God, just an architect to the universe?

True enough. Too many brainlets nowadays on the board, you must understand.

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So if we believe that there is an origin to the universe thst can be timeless and without cause, why must it be a God? This does nothing to prove that the universe starting event is intelligent, capable of passing judgement, has any investment in humanity, or anything else that makes a God a God. And it also doesn't necessarily even need to be an infinite or all powerful being, a spontaneous event like the big bang also suits the criteria.

>make pseudoinfinite space
>only make insignificantly minuscule fraction of it important
>important part has been around for a hundred billion years
>only last 15,000 years are significant in any way
This is your brain on christcukery

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What does this have to do with atheism? Atheism just says there is no god. It doesn't say that the universe has existed forever.

If there ever was a creator, they are either dead or evil beyond comprehension, considering how much of a moral dump we endure every day. And said creator would not correspond to any religion we know today, because every single one was created by men looking to control people and get rich.

Further, keeping all of the above in-mind, worshiping this entity is utterly meaningless because they neither care for nor reward your fealty. There is no heaven or hell, there is only oblivion. With all of that in mind... why would you give your faith to this indifferent asshole deity?