Changing of Poland's borders after 1945 was a big fucking mistake.
What's the point of relocating people that lived all generations in their own little fatherlands and regions with local culture and customs to german dilapitated regions and their houses being filled with Lithuanian and Ukrainian savages?
Post-war Ethnic cleansing was a crime against humanity. Poland lost half of its culture, museums were robbed by soviets, history stolen by some lithuanian/ukrainian larpers who struggle to justify the existence on our territories.
Dont forget that much of those lands had a ukrainian and belarussian majority. On the picture - percentage of native polish speakers compared to the entire population of each region. While Lviv or Wilno were indeed polish cities, most of the countryside was not. The more east you go the more it so.
>What's the point of relocating people that lived all generations in their own little fatherlands and regions with local culture and customs to german dilapitated regions and their houses being filled with Lithuanian and Ukrainian savages? WW2 was bad, but from the point of view of material potential, it's better that Poland was relocated to Lower Silesia, because it has a better urban structure, while Ukraine or Belarus are concentrated around one big city, like Kyiv or Minsk. The rest are tiny towns and villages.
WW2 shows that in the end Poland doesn't belong in eastern territories, it was, so to speak, an ultimate judgement of history.
Carson Ward
I'm talking about red territories. I indeed don't care about lands with ukrainian minorities. After all ukrainians lived in villages and were 90% illiterate unicivilized savages living with medieval technology, aka the most backward place in Europe were ukrainian inhabited vlllages in Poland and Russia.
Daniel Kelly
>polish europeans no such thing
pic related shows people with European blood marked in red
>After all ukrainians lived in villages and were 90% illiterate unicivilized savages living with medieval technology and 65% of pre-war Poland lived in the countryside, and Poland was also technologically backwards compared to the West, which trade war with Germany in 1924 showed.
Juan White
Not nearly as much as ukrainians though. We were way more civilized because we were culturally superior, we were catholics who were always miles ahead in organization and civilization compared to corrupt orthodox people that promoted no science whatsoever.
Cooper Wilson
Majority of population there was not Polish; the Poles had hostile relations with Russia and the locals. Thus, separation is the best solution, by the side that won the conflict in the end.
Lincoln Cook
Poles were locals there. And they were indeed majority
Christopher Miller
Well it wasnt their fault, both Poland and Russia (before WWI) largely ignored their areas, so they were underdeveloped. If you go by national selfdetermination, not polish imperialism, Poland would keep cities like Grodno, Brest, Wilno and Lviv, and loose most of what is east of it.
Liam Nguyen
>we were catholics who were always miles ahead in organization and civilization compared to corrupt orthodox people that promoted no science whatsoever. Well yes, but it was still minor compared to the West, so by your logic, Germans should rule over Poland because they promoted more science. You're just too stupid and impulsive to notice that your arguments are a double-edged sword.
Hudson Jenkins
Or how about limiting Poland to red territories? Then Poland would be >90% Polish and still no Wilno or Lwów in foreign hands. No museums robbed by red army soldiers etc. No ethnic cleansing.
It was. Other ignored parts of Russian Empire managed to do much better than them. The sole reason of Ukrianian incompetence was orthodox christianity that put no pressure on education or science or hard work, it made them literal white niggers and that why they were so despised.
Joseph Phillips
...Poles were seen as savages back than by germans. A polish peasant was a synonym for stupid and retarted, Bismarck said that if you want to destroy Poland, let them govern themselfs. So you think all that was wrong, but polish bias towards ukrainians is true?
James Cox
wtf is this shit map?
Cameron Wilson
How about not antagonizing Russia for all the decades following collapse of the Empire? Then there might have been no sanctions against Poland at all, or no occupation during the WWII
Hunter Diaz
>If you go by national selfdetermination, not polish imperialism, Poland would keep cities like Grodno, Brest, Wilno and Lviv, and loose most of what is east of it. That's what happened.
> Główny urząd statystyczny Rzeczypospolitej polskiej Yea antipolish bias
Jace Smith
>pic related shows people with European blood marked in red Oh, so Germans don't have European blood in them, good to know.
Brayden Hughes
I am talking about the borders between the war. They still favored poland.
Noah Myers
Poles were not uncivilized. Ukrainians were. Bismarck "hate" towards Poland was because we didn't want to be part of their empire. After all he was true about governing themselves, especially true regarding Germans governing themselves.. you know it the best,
The point is. Poland should be limited (at worst) to the red >90% Polish territories. Mixed territories could be in Ukraine/Belarus
But there is no point giving Ukraine 90% Polish region. The same with Lithuania. This is simily wrong.
Xavier Nelson
Well, it's all arbitrary. One could suggest to leave Prussia and the rest of the contested lands in German hands, since they were more civilized and more loyal to the Soviet union, and annex Poland as the Soviet Republic, since it was a part of Russian Empire, so no harm done
Elijah Nguyen
You are beyond retarded. Russia was the agressor. You kind of are known for fucking up "your-governed" Europe and you struggle to admit it. You are like nigger dictators ruling over Africa and making their own "genius" plans, or South American extreme populist junta leaders.
You lack sanity.
Jaxson Morris
It was a map made on paint.
Jayden Wright
Eastern Poland called Kresy: 43% Polish; 33% Ukrainians; 8% Jewish; 8% Belarusian; 8% others like Armenians, Germans/Austrians etc.
Nathan Stewart
How about genocide of Germans in Prussia?
Leo Thomas
>Poles were not uncivilized. From the point of view of advanced, urban Western Europe Poles were uncivilized. This is the part you don't get, because of your emotionality. Poland never developed a townspeople society, like Netherlands, Germany or England. This is how Germans justified partitions in 1848 during Frankfurt Revolution. This is why Germans called themselves Kulturtraeger. Again, your reasoning will backfire.
Brayden Hall
I'm specifically addressing your "civilized" argument here, and my logic is completely solid
Hudson Parker
>From the point of view of advanced, urban Western Europe Poles were uncivilized Germans weren't part of west.
Isaac Wood
Unlike nigger dictators, Russian plans work, and it acts as equal in world politics. Last Polish plan that worked was probably Lithuanian union in Medieval era.
Brandon Sanchez
You don't adress anything. You struggle to admit the lack of rational thought in your culture.
Who cares? Every country between Germany and Russia are and always were proxy states of one or the other.
Jacob Gray
>Russian plans work Like Chernobyl
Jackson Brown
>How about genocide of Germans in Prussia?
Based, we forgot to genocide other Germans though
William Ortiz
>Germans weren't part of west. Chyba cię cos pizdnęło w głowę.
Germans created a townspeople society, just like the Dutch or England, while Poland had towns, but they didn't dominate over the society.
Your argument is just fucking stupid, because you think that the only worth comes from science or economy. If you take those criteria, then Poland should be ruled by foreigners. Come up with better criteria.
Nobody calls for revision just stupid idea. Soviets struggle to justify the initial nazi collaboration and invading Poland together with Germans in 1939. The Kresy are all indeed Soviet taken lands.
Xavier Sanders
>You struggle to admit the lack of rational thought in your culture. You should read some Polish philosopher and mathematician logics, as it had a very strong school in this branch of thought.
A plan is rational when it consistently yelds results, not when you rationalize it. If you don't rationalize it, the problem is with you, not with the plan.
Christopher Taylor
These lands would be only a problem right now since they are so undeveloped xd
Juan Nguyen
>Germans created a townspeople society are you compeletely retarded don't you? Germans aren't part of Roman Empire sphere they were always far behind the core Europe. Just because the regions closest to France or the ex-Roman ones were advances doesn't change the fact that the adjacent eastern german territories were absolutely abysmal in comparison.
>Your argument is just fucking stupid, because you think that the only worth comes from science or economy. If you take those criteria, then Poland should be ruled by foreigners. But not Germans. More like the Jews.
Michael Richardson
>You struggle to admit the lack of rational thought in your culture Because Russians didn't participate in the philosophical exchange of Middle Ages, they didn't have their scholastic period in history, which completely changed Europe and which also separated Ukraine & Belarus from Russia. Belarussians and Ukrainians are more rationalistic than Russians, because they adopted scholastic philosophy and logic from Poland, which had its own medieval university since 1364, while first russian university was created in 1755.
>Soviets struggle to justify the initial nazi collaboration and invading Poland together with Germans in 1939. Noone struggles with it at all. In fact, just recently, the Russian ministry of foreign affairs explained that M-L pact is completely justified and correct from the point of Russian (Soviet) interests and goals.
Kayden Bennett
Ukrainians are the least civilized out of them, historically and nowaydays.
Hunter Phillips
But you expulsed Poles of Wilno for example.
I could accept the german cleansing as its somehow justifable but not the simultaneous cleansing of Poles.
Jaxson Turner
Cri me a river hohol
Hudson Wright
Pre war Poland was a Jewish state with 3 million Jews residing. The highest percentage of Jews in state in history excluding the Levant.
Cooper Young
>How destroying culture of Lwów or Wilno was beneficial for Europe or Poland? It isn't. But noone else should be concerned or care about what is beneficial for Poland. As for Europe - it surely is beneficial for all Polish neighbors, at least.
Jordan Bailey
Is stealing beneficial? This is how Russian brain works?
Mason Walker
>Just because the regions closest to France or the ex-Roman ones were advances doesn't change the fact that the adjacent eastern german territories were absolutely abysmal in comparison Ah, fine. Indeed, Eastern Germany wasn't as well urbanized as Western Germany and Prussia didn't have townspeople society like Hamburg, Lubeck or territory close to Rhine. Again it depends on what you consider Germany, because Germans saw themselves as one dispersed territory, even if they lived in separate states, so they thought that they are more advanced than Poland anyway.
I agree. Stalin was a fucking idiot. According to the first census in the Russian Empire, in 1897 population of Vilnius was 154,500. The largest linguistic groups at the time were those speaking Yiddish (61,847) and Polish (47,795). Other groups included Russian (30,967), Belarusian (6,514) and Ukrainian (517), Lithuanian (3,131), German (2,170), Tartar (722) and Latvian (184) speaking communities.
Blake Scott
The whole point of the ethnic cleansing of germans living there was to weaken german state, it was part of a jewish plan to supress Germany, and prevent it from rising again.
Julian Nguyen
Historically they were never more advanced than Poland, except the late stage Commonwealth.
James Sanders
>Ukrainians are the least civilized out of them, historically and nowaydays. I don't know. In my view what Ukrainians did with all this Lenin monument destruction in 2014 was impressive and heroic. It's the first Ruthenian state that did decommunization on its own.
Bentley Cox
Why do you care about polenigs so much
Samuel Howard
You should show the later statistics from/after WW1 or before WW2 when talking about Stalin.
Jace Thompson
Can you assume an abstract point of view for a second? This was a contested land, and, if anything, Poland had least ties to it (no major Polish population, no holding it prior for prolonged period of time). Likewise, the Soviet Union took it without any foul play, as it never recognized these lands nor had any obligations to Poland to maintain them in their hands.
Ayden Thomas
>Historically they were never more advanced than Poland, except the late stage Commonwealth. Yes, more or less. But they had Danzig, which was populated by the Germans, trade was done by the Germans, so there was some dominance still. In general, without Silesia it was hard for Poles to compete with urbanized Europe.
Carson Gutierrez
Ukraine today is in worse shape than it was in 1991. And the downfall is even more incredible since other countries of the world flourished in the meantime. Todays Ukraine's GDP per capita is on par with Nigeria.
Ukrainians are good at shitting on people who made them somehow close to be a developed and functioning society.
They are still those illiterate, low IQ peasants by their mentality. Look how they killed Poles in Volhynia, their village retard mentality with lack of processing power called for killing the richer, because richer mean bad or thief.
More like you can justify it because it got you land. You only bitch because you lost something.
Jackson Sanders
It wasn't populated by Germans until Prussia came. Unless you're considering Dutch to be Germans. And Poles were way more present then than after.
>trade was done by the Germans Wrong
>without Silesia it was hard for Poles to compete with urbanized Europe Silesia had coal.
What are you calling for. I struggle to undertsand. There was no actual reason for Germans to feel superior at the time. That's why your argument is shit.
David Barnes
>They are still those illiterate, low IQ peasants by their mentality This is exactly the language which Jews and Germans use to discredit Poland.
I see nothing wrong with peasants or low IQ people.
Bentley Anderson
But Germans should be the only ones losing.
We won the war against them.
Alexander Young
>Poland had least ties to it (no major Polish population, no holding it prior for prolonged period of time). Excuse me but Lwów is around 770 years old and belonged to Poland for almost 500 years while it had a Polish majority population for 650+years. It got its city rights from and was built from the ground up by the Polish king Casimir III the Great after 1349 - when he, and thus the Polish Kingdom, inherited the lands of Galicia (Lwów) and Volhynia by a downward agreement in 1340 after the death of his nephew, Jerzy-Boleslaw II, the prince of Galicia-Volhynia. That's why the city, especially its old town, has predominantly Polish influence in architecture and culture. That's why most churches in the city are originally Polish built Latin/catholic churches; Polish built castles and palaces by Polish kings and magnates/nobles in and around the city/area; Polish royal armory and Polish public and private libraries with over a million volumes of Polish-Latin books even from the middle ages: all from the times of the Polish Kingdom and later the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Lwów was a royal Polish city and one of the most important Polish cultural centers in the country for centuries together with Kraków (its sister city), Warsaw and Poznań etc. What Stalin did to us Poles is despicable: taking Lwów from Poland and expelling it's Polish majority population after 1945. Like from many other cities in Galicia like Stanisławów or Tarnopol etc. which were founded and built by Polish noble magnates and in which Poles constituted a majority as well, until 1945...
Then why bitch when you lost the last dozen or so wars before the world wars? Stalin wanted to shift your borders west and make Germany easier to invade. He wasn't going to give you shit for free.
>Then why bitch when you lost the last dozen or so wars before the world wars? Dozen?
Jackson Perry
Hyperbole
Austin Baker
>>trade was done by the Germans >Wrong In Danzig it was done by the Germans, you can easily google it.
>Silesia had coal. More importantly Silesia was well urbanized since Middle Ages.
>There was no actual reason for Germans to feel superior at the time. There was - Germans remembered who built towns in Poland, Germans knew that Gutenberg created the printing press, Germans knew who Gauss was etc.
Zachary Jenkins
We didn't bitch, because we won WW1 by regaining independence after our ellites betrayed Polish nation in 1795.
WW2 is a story of failure of Germany, not Poland. Poland was damaged but not vanquished. Germans wanted to kill every Pole and then Russians too. I think Russians served Germans like in 5 star hotel in comparison to what they deserved to be treated.
I struggle to find reason for relocation. Stalin was an idiot and that's the real question.
Red plague was horrible.
Nicholas Reed
You do realize that Poles won majority of their wars right? youtube.com/watch?v=xgLKVaJwpXY If you then want to hyperbole correctly then you should average it out towards the majority and say that Poles won all the time.
Chase Powell
>Stalin was an idiot No, he was a geopolitical genius that move ethnicities around in ways to prevent them from opposing Soviet control. He shifted you west to be further away from Russia because he didn't actually trust you. He gave you German shit because he didn't have anyone else to give it to and wasn't going to let the opportunity to permanently cripple Germany as a potential world power slip.
Parker Hughes
>In Danzig it was done by the Germans, you can easily google it. It wasn't. Germans were insignificant 2nd category of people in the city.
>Silesia was well urbanized since Middle Ages. Wrong. Silesia was a shithole until coal discovery.
>Germans remembered who built towns in Poland Not Germans. >Germans knew that Gutenberg created the printing press Germans knew who Gauss was etc. Nobody knew these people. Gauss? Who the fuck is he.
You struggle with your mental gymastic
The truth is Germany was a backwater country outside the ex-Roman core of Europe for centuries.
>No, he was a geopolitical genius that move ethnicities around in ways to prevent them from opposing Soviet control So why he didn't stop at having Poland having >90% Poles but without ethnic cleansing and relocations? (aka the Red Poland mentioned in map)
Not everybody is interested in non-core-european cultures.
Jackson James
So basically what Im reading is that: The shift from a rural centered society to an urban centered society is what shifted the balance of power towards the partitioners and caused our downfall?
Ryder Watson
>It wasn't. Germans were insignificant 2nd category of people in the city. Nope, Germans dominated in the city.
>Wrong. Silesia was a shithole until coal discovery. Nope, it had thick town structure since Middle Ages.
>>Germans remembered who built towns in Poland >Not Germans. Yes, Germans - see Ostsiedlung.
>Nobody knew these people. Gauss? Who the fuck is he. lol. I can sense your frustration, but Germans knew that they have some advantages over Eastern Europe - more trade, more technology, even if Prussians weren't a part of it.
>The truth is Germany was a backwater country Nope, one of the more important countries of Middle Ages, they created the HRE and were fighting the pope - core conflict of the Middle Ages.
>The shift from a rural centered society to an urban centered society is what shifted the balance of power towards the partitioners and caused our downfall? Not necessarily, but to an extent yes. Poland-Lithuania wasn't partitioned by townspeople countries. Those were absolutistic monarchies in which landed aristocracy was dominant.
What later deepened the weakness of Poland-Lithuania was that we didn't manage to build concentrated capital. Germans did this under Bismarck and Hitler, and Russians did this partially under Tsarism but more importantly under Stalin, while Poland remained a sort of medium power.
>Nope, Germans dominated in the city. Nope. Germans were not significant or important group of people
>Nope, it had thick town structure since Middle Ages. And? It was a shithole.
>Yes, Germans - see Ostsiedlung. Those were no longer parts of Poland.
>lol. I can sense your frustration, but Germans knew that they have some advantages over Eastern Europe - more trade, more technology, even if Prussians weren't a part of it. I'm just not interested in non-european-core cultures that were insignificant on european stage
>Nope, one of the more important countries of Middle Ages Wrong. Backwater of Europe until Bismarck. And all good things in Germany came directly from Roman Empire and from France who was a medieval superpower back then and had twice the population of German states.
William Edwards
Good job, considering “crippled” Germany today has an industrial output more than double that of any ex-Soviet state, including Russia. Lmao
Elijah Lewis
Have you not noticed the amount of bitching between Poles and Ukrainians about Lviv/Lwow? You think that isn't intentional? Ever take a look at a map of Azerbaijan and Armenia? Fucking with borders to keep ethnicities infighting was Soviet Policy, it was the rule, not the exception. You weren't "given" anything but a permanent animus among your neighbors.
Camden Martin
We won. Just because we were on Soviet site doesn't matter. Winning against Germany means winning. Of course Soviet wouldn't Poland let it go to the hands of western imperialists.
William Young
Also don't forget about Witelo.
Easton Fisher
Not even on paper. The “polish people’s republic” was entirely a soviet creation that militantly opposed Poland’s formal government in exile. Poland was quite literally destroyed by Germany and the USSR and no amount of idiotic historical revisionism will change that.
Grayson Hill
>You think that isn't intentional? Of course it is. Stalin was a cunt.
Matthew Nelson
So they fucked up Kaliningrad Oblast with settlement of Russians just to stir the fight between Russians (core Soviet nation) and Germans? Or letting them be exposed on Germany?
It doesn't make sense. If Soviet stayed with Red Poland taking only Ukrainian majority regions then it would be completely ok. After all Poland had minorities in Germany, so the Silesia and parts of East Prussia would be joined to Poland as a compensation
Angel Baker
>Not even on paper. Eh not you're being stupid. Poland was in the Allies, the Allies won, period.
Luke Baker
See You also conveniently forget that your soviet “allies” deliberately let your only real resistance force get destroyed by Germany when they could have helped along with permanently annexing the eastern half your country. Do I even need to mention Katyn?
Joshua Turner
Actually, Polish army on the Eastern front had half a million bodies by Berlin, and certainly wasn't destroyed at any point.
