Is bullpop the future of assault rifles?

Muh licensing fees
Christ, this shit again. Everyone uses ARs because the US does, not because its a free IP. Its not cheaper to buy from Diemaco or LMT than Colt or FN. Considering both India and Ukraine bought domestic Tavor licenses, its not an expensive one; western countries doesn't buy because they just dont want it.

>everyone uses ARs
France uses the FAMAS. Germany uses the G36. Turkey uses the G3

>FAMAS
It's on its way out though

>France uses the FAMAS
Keep up with the news granddad, they're ditching it for a piston AR
>Germany uses the G36
And they're ditching it for either a piston AR from HK or Rheinmetal, or an HK scar clone
>Turkey uses the G3
And its being replaced by a locally produced .308 AR

france ordered the hk 416 for its army on large scale

caseless is a dead end.

I used to own a kel tec rdb and I traded it for an ak. No regrets. It wasn't a terrible gun or anything, but the ergonomics were bad in a way you don't notice at first. First of all the mag release is absolute shit. It would get pushed by my rig or my shooting hand when I'm moving. Second, unlike a conventional rifle where the weight is more forward and therefore is equally distributed amongst your arms, the rdb has its weight centered on the grip. This means a majority of the weight is on your shooting hand. Support hand does nothing but point. It's something you only notice after using it at the range for a while. You can counteract this by just using your support hand and stock to hold it but it still doesn't feel comfortable.

I think it is, but modularity and the fact that the USA prefers ar platform for whatever reason stand in the way.

A few years a go most western countries replaced their Main battle rifles for bullpups and now some of them, like france are moving back to ar platform, probably due to cost and developing costs.
Maybe in 10 years it will come back hard, depending in what environment we are fighting, but as cities extend and we find ourselves exchanging shots in streets more and more often whether it is police or military the bullpups will be used in ever increasing numbers.

I actually liked that about the jewvor i borrowed when I took a cqb/room clearimg course. Having all the weight in the back make it feel amazing and I did not get tired very much through out the 6 hour course. Only problem was I'd instinctively try to put the mag forward of my shooting hand, and I was constantly looking for the mag release at the back despite it being where a normal ar would be. Pretty accurate to 200 yards so I can see some specialized security forces benefitting from using it. The geissele trigger on it was pretty damn solid so I did not feel any of the negatively that's spewed relentlessly, although the optic did Sit a little too low for my liking.

If you're of a smaller build the shorter overall length is great. Pic related was less unwieldy than the M16 for me.

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Tell me more about electric ignition, user.
Why isn't is used in guns when it seems to provide so many advantages?

>lack of ambidexterity
Famas?

the point isn't to have a longer barrel, the point is to have a standard 16 or 20 incher and have the gun itself be smaller

Electric ignition has been in use for 120+ years now.
It's more expensive so has never been a commercial success for civilian use.

I highly doubt it, they're not designed around how the human body works nearly as well as traditional style rifles.
That doesn't mean I don't drool over that gun though. I fully intend to buy one.

You can actually adjust the stock on a standard platform.

What about the P90 isn't conducive to how the human body works?

It's a useful gimick but having all the working mechanisms in front of you makes it easier to work and troubleshoot.

It's used in many aircraft weapons. Not so sure about small arms but there have been a couple examples that weren't commercially successful. Pretty hard to change minds when you only put it into fudd guns, fudds being the least likely to accept new ideas.

I can tell you have no experience fixing electronics. Even military grade electronics break all the time. Staying with a simple mechanical system would be so much better than an electrical system.

are you a Singapore gooklet?

This. In grunt conditions it's better to have a simple mechanism than some electronics. More reliable and easier to fix by the average 90 IQ grunt.

Well disregarding concerns about reliability, there are a couple of states (Cali and Wyoming iirc) that have weird provisions where as soon as an electronic gun is on the market; all other guns get banned. So no company wants to be "that guy" that irrevocably fucks every gun owner in multiple states.

(((assault rifles)))

>bullpop

This
It sounds like a cow piss beverage from India

Doubt it. The more complicated trigger mechanism raises the cost of production, and while reloading them isn't hard, it's not as fast as a conventional rifle design. As for their increased velocity, and more compact design, even special forces units like the SAS put down their L85s in favor of C8s. I'm not an expert on guns, but it looks as though they were better on paper than they were in reality.

>as soon as an electronic gun is on the market; all other guns get banned.
the fuck kind of law is that

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Cali I understand, how the fuck did Wyoming get cucked like this and how do we fix it?

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The trigger isnt that much complicated. Its just an actuator bar lol.

They have their uses, but probably not the future lol.

The compactness of the IDF's X95s though is pretty freaking rad.

I do like the aesthetics of the MTAR though

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youtube.com/watch?v=tkOsgXHUGs0

I think New Jersey has a similar thing that says once they're on the market all other firearms are illegal after 3 years, a bunch of people sent death threats to a guy that tried selling them and he backed off

Bullpups are the past. Let old technology die.

>The trigger isnt that much complicated. Its just an actuator bar lol.
Which is a part you don't need on a conventional rifle. When you're ordering thousands of rifles, the costs of these things add up something fierce.

One has to put their wrist in flexion to change magazines.
It's a wrist factor for MSD
And don't get me started on vibration risks from automatic fire.

Actually I'm a chartered electrical engineer. Diagnosing and fixing electronics is my day job.
An electrical ignition system can be far simpler and far more reliable than a mechanical one. Its not like a computer, it doesn't require sensitive microcontrollers or even need PCBs at all. You can make the connections as thick and strong as any of the parts in the trigger group, and they don't have to move. When was the last time you sheared a hammer? Short of getting shot, which would stop any trigger group, it's not fragile.
Malfunctions would be rarer and remediation would be simpler, not harder. Its literally check the switch contacts, check the firing pin contacts. No mechanics to be gummed up. There are plenty of cases where if a rifle gets so full of crap that it requires a full disassembly or armorer level intervention to remedy. This wouldn't be the case with electric ignition.
Inertia. Most electric ignition firearms aren't compatible with traditional priming. So its hard on first adopters, its more expensive and you're taking the risk that if production of the new primers or ammunition stops you're left with a useless rifle. What you need is to ride a military contract to get over that initial adoption just like 5.56 did, but no military is going to change anything until they replace 5.56 itself.
Thats for Smart Guns - guns with user identification which is something different. You can make a smart gun with electric ignition, but a smart gun doesn't require it nor does electric ignition make a gun a smart gun. The armatix, the one everyone was concerned about potentially triggering that law, uses an electromagnet to block a conventional firing pin and fired conventional ammunition.

can you point to one piece of electric equipment that works reliably in a field environment and can be fixed by the dumbest person you know?

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That's not an intrinsic problem to bullpups though, just most of the current ones. You just make the LoP short and add a short adjustable or spacers to the butt to get it where you want.
Not that it matters all that much anyway because basically everyone uses the same LoP, and just uses adjustability for transport anyway.
Trigger linkages, mechanical operation and to a certain extent modularity are inherent problems, length of pull and ambidexterity aren't.

Yeah an extension cord.
>Power go way?
>Check stuck into wall.
Its about that complex. Less. And if its physically severed, replace it. Because if somehow it is, you would have just destroyed a normal trigger group as well.

Yeah that's the real question. The average grunt isn't very smart, I've seen some people struggle with the most basic jam and reassembly after cleaning.
Does it work equally well regardless of temperature, humidity level and so on?

>a cost increase to get a rifle in a useful configuration for task-specific purposes isnt justified.

>Does it work equally well regardless of temperature, humidity level and so on?
Shouldn't matter as long as its designed competently. It should even still fire underwater, though with the same caveats that firing a regular gun underwater has.

>extension cord
Except if that breaks most people who "fix" it do it poorly and lose some of its effectiveness and it will almost always break again in a shorter time.
How about you show the type of electronic firing system you think is "Marine proof" with some pics. The system from remington is more expensive, less durable, and more sensitive to the environment.

I'm not saying it couldn't be made more practical, but as it stands there's no real reason to implement it over what's already there that already kills the bad guy and is pretty cheap.

If it's so much more useful for "task specific purposes", again, why do special forces units, who are more likely to be fighting in close quarters where the compact size of a bullpup would be beneficial, prefer convential rifles? Even the Chinese are starting to arm their boys with conventional rifles instead of their QBZ bullpups.

Which is why industry standard is not to let idiots try to solder extension cords back together, but replace them.
We have armorers for a reason. Your average marine isn't grinding new trigger group components for his rifle out of scrap metal now, is he? Theres no reason it would be different. And again if something breaks on that level you would have broken a regular trigger component. There is no reason you couldn't make your connections monolithic - they don't have to be tiny little fragile wires. When was the last time you sheared a hammer in your AR15?
Field remediation is checking the contacts and checking feeding. They already do the second, and the first is simpler than cleaning already is.
>system from remington
The EtronX was fine for a rifle not designed for combat. It wasn't fragile despite not being at all built like I'm describing. It also wasn't that environmentally sensitive - the sensitivity and what few reliability issues it did have came from using an off the shelf 9v battery which don't like temperature extremes and don't last long if you leave it on. It was expensive and thats what killed it, but thats because it was a small production run with surprisingly little parts commonality with a conventional Model 700. Tooling up for new production is expensive, and you're not going to sell as many as you sell normal Model 700's to amortize those costs.
Which leads me to
>I'm not saying it couldn't be made more practical, but as it stands there's no real reason to implement it over what's already there
As I said here: the advantages aren't worth replacing 5.56 on its own. Its not cost effective to buy new rifles in whats essentially traditional brass cased 5.56 for increased reliability otherwise the dozen other M16/M4 replacements would have been adopted. But if the military for example does move forward with PCTA for the weight advantages, which would already necessitate new weapons, theres no reason not to include it.

you just keep saying it'll work but not saying why

an extension cord was a terrible example as they don't "fail" without breaking. I expected "radio" which are notoriously unreliable and "work in all environments"
Literally nothing electronic in the military works as intended in the place it's intended to a good chunk of the time. That's why I ask for an example of actual equipment that isn't a fucking wire.

This is going to sound outrageously stupid, but why not have a modular design where a grunt can just swap the firing mechanism if it malfunctions for a new one?

What part don't you understand? An electric primer is basically a resistor. It gets hot and either ignites the propellant directly, or ignites a priming compound which then ignites the propellant similar to a traditional cartridge. An extension cord is the perfect analogy for the trigger mechanism then, because it does nothing but conduct electricity to the resistor. It basically is a "fucking wire". A radio by comparison is infinitely more complicated. Although the system is often called "electronic firing", it actually isn't electronic. All the inherent attributes are exclusively electric and you can add electronic control IF you want to. It doesn't have to have a single transistor or semiconductor in it. This is why I've been using the term electric ignition.

There are 2 primary modes of failure. There's a breakage in the conductor and theres improper contacts. We'll start with the latter. There are 2 to 4 contact points - trigger, firing pin and depending on the design, bolt and safety.
The trigger is just a switch, you know what a switch does. But because it does not mechanically link to anything there doesn't need to be any ingress points. Even the physical switching location can be entirely sheathed to prevent ingress. At this point, you only need to maintain contact material, which mostly fails due to wear and is easily dealt by choosing a material with proper hardness and corrosion resistance and making it thick enough. Easy enough to make it outlast any part on the rifle but also easy to replace if necessary. The break point of the trigger can be customized to whatever you like with no constraints on how heavy or light you want it, thats entirely external to the firing system.
The firing pin contact is only as sensitive to failure as literally any non-fixed firing pin. Fill your chamber with mud and it'll fail just as traditional firing pin would. Also you will eventually have to replace the firing pin, same as a traditional one.

Cont.

Wtf are you even going on about you mong.

Not that guy but your bitching about "more complex triggers" is fucking retarded, its a transfer bar its not rocket science.

Cont from The safety is just another switch and is subject to the same restrictions and benefits as the trigger.
The bolt is different. You need to transmit power from the trigger to the firing pin same as you need to do for kinetic energy in a normal trigger. However, you don't need the firing pin to be in the bolt. So this leads to different methods of transmission depending on design. An obvious one is to build the contacts into the locking mechanism - if the rifle can go into battery, you have a connection and can fire. If the rifle can't go into battery, you should be prevented from firing anyway so if something prevents you from firing electrically, the same scenario should prevent you from firing traditionally as well. This can also be redundant so it functions even if grit allows going into battery but prevents contact (somehow) - every locking lug could providing contact, or in addition to other methods. You could also transmit down the bolt body, or through the chamber or dozen other ways or all of them at once. Dealing with fouling is the biggest problem, but it really isn't one. There are dozens of places to put it where it won't foul and even if it did, you haven't cleaned the rest of the rifle for long enough that build up has stopped the rifle already.

cont.

Yeah.
The SAR-21, amusingly, is front heavy, but stupidly easy to take apart and clean. Pop a takedown pin and the thing splits in half. Entirely possible to take it apart for cleaning in a single minute, and entirely possible to put it back together and do functional tests within a minute as well.
The M16 is lighter, but the length makes it kind of a bitch when you're trying to get on and off a vehicle and general handling of the rifle is unwieldy for someone of my size since the damn thing gets caught on every single thing because of its length. A friend who was of a larger build than me did comment that the SAR was too small for him to hold comfortably and the M16 is just nice.

Besides, the SAR has a scope. Most conscripts get their marksman badge(and the reward cash) easily with that rifle, on the M16 with its ironsights the ones that do get the marksman badge are rare.

Cont from which was cont from Which leads us to breakages in the conductors between the contact points. These just flat out shouldn't break if they're built properly. They don't even have to move at all. If you can build a receiver and trigger group that survives the strain from firing you can build conductors will too. If you're unconcerned about your parts in your trigger group physically failing, so to should you be unconcerned about the conductors. I've been using the term "Conductor" because I don't want you to get caught up in stereotypes about what a wire or cable is. You could have these conductors built into the receiver, they could be solid inflexible pieces of metal or they could look like traditional heavy gauge wiring.

Problem is when people think of electrical systems they think of small things like their phones and computers. But those are built to be light and cheap. When you want absolutely reliability designs change. What you should be comparing it to things like power generation systems - they last decades. Remember you're not trying to fit this in a densely packed 5 oz, 5in phone where thousandths of an oz, a fraction of an inch and 2 cents make the difference between untenable and good enough. You're only restriction is in its comparison to a traditional trigger group.

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That's why red dots with batteries that last for 40k+ hours are never issued to infantry, right? Because it's electronic and will therefore break?

Better to just issue purely optical scopes than giving them anything that uses electricity. It's not like you could make a trigger with enough juice for literally millions of discharges using a microswitch rated for an equal number of clicks like every modern computer mouse on the planet uses. Totally impractical.

Thats why people use buis. Because optics fail and everyone recognize that. What are you just going to carry around multiple trigger packs?