Alright Jow Forums, this is actually my first time making a thread here. I read the sticky and checked the catalog, so now I'm creating this thread.
Things here in the US are getting a bit tense politically and I've decided that I'd like to own a firearm. I've done some general research but not nearly enough yet. I thought I'd ask you guys here about a couple of things, mostly pertaining to the actual hardware, so that I'm not wasting so much time. Seems like there's a lot of choices out there and I'm relatively ignorant when it comes to guns.
>legal stuff I'm not interested in registering my firearm if I don't have to, because it's none of the government's business. I live in Michigan and according to the NRA-ILA website, this state doesn't really have any regulations on the purchase of long guns (rifles and shotguns) outside of the buyer having to be 18. So no permits. However, background checks are unclear. Is this just a buzzword that means the same thing as getting a permit? If I go into a gun shop with my ID and a stack of cash, how does that work? Do I have to fill out paper work, and if so, what kind?
>firearm types I've decided that I'll be buying a bolt-action rifle or a pump-action shotgun. I don't really want to own multiple firearms. I want a single well made rifle that can be used for hunting, home defense, and also civil defense if I ever need it. A shotgun would be perfect except that I've heard they're less accurate over longer distances. If it were ever needed for civil defense, I think the bolt-action rifle would be better since I could shoot farther with it.
>damage to targets Obviously if I ever feel the need to shoot at someone, I'd be shooting to kill. At a range of like 100-200 feet, how would the rifles compare in the damage they do? My goal is to stop a threat as quickly as possible with the best accuracy I can manage.
>ammunition I'd probably just go with a 28 inch 12 gauge shotgun. But for the rifle, do I get .243 Winchester, .270 Winchester, or .30-06 Springfield?
These guns are the Remington Model 700 BDL and the Model 870 Wingmaster for reference. Feel free to recommend something else if it's better. My budget is $1000 but I can be flexible by around $200 if needed.
(2/2)
Jordan Wright
Get a .243 Winchester for the rifle. High velocity and it is good for varmint to deer hunting. As well, it is unlikely that any ban will affect ammunition availability.
Ryan Martin
How does the .243 Winchester compare to the other two available cartridges when shooting a person (for self defense of course). If I have some commies burning my neighborhood down, which cartridge is most likely to drop them with one well placed shot?
When you go into a gun shop to buy a gun you'll fill out a 4473 form and they'll submit that information through the NICS to see if you have any criminal record or record of involuntary psychiatric holds. There is no national gun registry but local law enforcement is allowed to keep a record of your 4473 for a certain amount of time(months) and the gun store itself has to keep the form for a longer amount of time(years).
Cooper Thomas
Get an AR15 faggot
Josiah Hughes
>to see if you have any criminal record What happens if I have non-violent criminal offenses on my record that aren't felonies, and that were committed before I turned 18? Do those matter? >or record of involuntary psychiatric holds I had this happen once for a couple days, also before I was 18.
I don't want one.
Austin Russell
was your psychiatric hold issued by a judge? also was the sentence for your crime over a year?
Jaxson Morgan
Don't be so paranoid over the background checks. I made that mistake, not wanting to "be on the grid" or whatever for a few years. I was dumb. You fill out the form (that the store keeps for a few years, without making a digital record of it) and then they call up and ask the NICS background check system, in front of you, if you're clear (unless you're a felon or a judge rendered you insane, you're clear). The form basically just has your contact information, whether you're a US resident, and then you answer "No" to a bunch of questions that would disqualify you from owning a gun. >Are you a narcotics user? >Do you have a current restraining order against you? >Are you an illegal citizen, that has escaped from a prison bus, on the run from the Tommy Lee Jones? It takes 5 minutes and if you have questions, ask the guy at the counter. He'll be happy to help, since screwing it up means he'll have to pull out another form so you can start over. Biggest trip-up on the form is making sure you get the date right. Get the date right. For a rifle (hunting deer), I'd suggest a Tikka T3 lite. It's as good as the Remington 700, cheaper, and has fewer issues. In fact, you can get one in one of your wanted calibers at a fuggin' steal right now: eurooptic.com/Tikka-T3-Lite-243-Win.aspx If you order online, you choose which gun shop in your area to send it to (call the gun shop ahead of time and ask if they do "FFL transfers" and what they charge for it). When that gun shop gets it, you go to the shop, do the background check, pay them the $30 or so for the FFL transfer fee, and they give you the gun. Then you can spend the rest on ammo, a scope, and some mounts. For a shotgun (hunting birds), a Remington 870 express can probably be found at any given pawn shop near you for $300. Spend $100 on different shotgun shells and you'll pretty much be set.
Camden Allen
Just do the background check. If you don't pass, you don't pass. It's not illegal to fail a background check.
Jayden Taylor
>was your psychiatric hold issued by a judge? No. >also was the sentence for your crime over a year? No.
Great advice. I'll look into those.
Colton Ramirez
Here's the full rundown on the "mental institution" question, as found on the form.
>A formal commitment of a person to a mental institution by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority What's a "lawful authority" in this case? A doctor?
Either way, I've been fully off probation and out of therapy for more than two years now. I don't think I'll have an issue.
Luke Perry
Don't be a statist faggot, build a four winds shotgun pussy
The big question is under the exceptions: B) the person has been fully released or discharged from all mandatory treatment, supervision, or monitoring
Cameron Lopez
Don't get any of those stupid fucking cartridges. If shit hits the fan, the most readily available ammo will be .223 or .308, in that order. If shit doesn't hit the fan, the cheapest rifle rounds to practice with are .223 and .308, in that order
Jonathan Bell
If you want one rifle to cover multiple functions get an AR chambered for 5.56/.223. They can shoot long range decently and are good at close ranges as well. Ammo is everywhere and reasonably priced. >I'd probably just go with a 28 inch 12 gauge shotgun. But for the rifle, do I get .243 Winchester, .270 Winchester, or .30-06 Springfield For home defense you don't want to use those rifle cartridges, they will over penetrate a fuck ton. I would look at grabbing a BCM complete I have had many friends do this and so far they have all been great rifles for the price. They will cost a bit initially but they will last and if you want one good rifle to fill many roles I think this would be best. If you get the tacticool bug, which you will, you can upgrade easily and put cool shit on it.
Sebastian Martinez
This. There is no rifle in the US that is more versatile in the United States than the AR-15. It is suited to all purposes you mentioned. Plus you can just swap uppers and change the role of your gun easily. Jack of all trades and actually pretty fucking good at them too.
Jaxson Lewis
I'm a total AK fag and I don't own ARs anymore but I still know for new people they are the easiest to make sure you get a good one. I would say get an AK because ammo is dirt cheap but I would not recommend a newby try and find a GOOD cheap AK. There are just to many shitty ones out there. You have to want to do research. Unless you want to drop cash money and get an Arsenal.
Camden Sullivan
If he doesn't want an AR-15, then roll with it, bro. Start him out with a gun he'll enjoy and he'll build up to that.
Leo Hernandez
The way he framed his questions was that he was not in this for the hobby right now. It sounds like he just wants a rifle for defense and practice, he mentioned he did not want to buy a bunch of guns. The AR will meet those requirements with one purchase. Which is why I would recommend it over anything else out there.
>Ammo availabilty >can change ammo with and upper swap >tons of cheap and good options >tons of product support upgrades >limitless online knowledge tricks and tips
There are few practical reason not to get one.
If I had to recommend a bolt gun if that is what OP really wants I would recommend the Mossberg MVP in 5.56/223. I personally own one of these and it is by far my favorite bolt gun. >takes AR mags >is accurate as all hell >light recoil and a blast to shoot. >using the right ammo can be used for home defense with out killing you neighbor and his dog with over penetration.
Nolan Russell
I am also an AK fag and I do not own an AR-15 and I never have. I got my AK because I wanted an AK. Now, OP doesn't know what the fuck he wants, so he needs to get himself an AR-15 and call it a day. Steel case .223 is also dirt cheap and OP will need a lot of it to practice.
>I want a single well made rifle that can be used for hunting, home defense, and also civil defense if I ever need it The thing is, bolt action rifles in full power cartridges are fucking retarded for self defense, and a bolt action rifle that is good for hunting will suck ass for civil defense and vice versa. A 16" bbl AR is decent for self defense, and good for civil defense. An upper swap to, say, 6.5 grendel or another meme caliber will be good for taking up to medium sized game, and then the upper can be swapped back to fulfill whatever role. >A shotgun would be perfect except that I've heard they're less accurate over longer distances. If it were ever needed for civil defense, I think the bolt-action rifle would be better since I could shoot farther with it. People make precision AR-15s all the time and you can 100% kill people at 500yds+ with the right caliber and skill. Hell, 5.56 is good to, what, 500yds at least? Not to mention the new .224 Valkyrie which will bring you EASILY to 1000yds if you have half a brain.
OP you can ignore my suggestion but you will be the helmet-wearing, drooling brainlet that you posted if you do.
Joseph Rogers
Nice to see more slavboos lol, I ordered a new SLR104-36 along with a Trijicon MRO. I am dying waiting to get it in.
Colton Murphy
I decided to get the Remington Model 700 BDL in .30-06 Springfield. I've been reading that the bullet will have a much harder impact and it seems to be available for sale all over the place.
Besides, I'm not worried at all about scavenging ammo if SHTF. I'd have enough ammo already to hopefully allow me to fight my way out of the city.
The issue I'd probably have with any semi-automatic rifle is that I'd waste a bunch of ammo. If I can only hold four rounds at once and I have to manually eject the spent casings, I'll be more conservative with the ammo I have and I'll shoot more carefully. In a survival situation where there's a huge riot and everything goes to shit, I'm not going to play rambo and fire 30 rounds into a crowd. That's not my job and I don't want to draw attention to myself. I'd be running into the woods with a backpack full of canned food. The rifle is just another tool that I use to reach my end goal, like a can opener. I'd be using it to shoot anyone that gets in my way of leaving.
Nathaniel Perry
you won't find much support for .30-06 here. This is .308 country, since the bullets are a dime cheaper and you can also use 7.61 NATO
Xavier Evans
>I decided to get the Remington Retarded decision. DO NOT BUY NEW REMINGTONS. >in .30-06 Springfield Also retarded. There is nothing that .30-06 can do that modern .308 can't do, except have higher recoil and less availability. The issue I'd probably have with any semi-automatic rifle is that I'd waste a bunch of ammo. If I can only hold four rounds at once and I have to manually eject the spent casings, I'll be more conservative with the ammo I have and I'll shoot more carefully. Holy shit this is why you fucking TRAIN. Go to fucking carbine class for fuck's sake, or at least go to the range. Did you get your info from Zombie Survival Guide or something? >I'd be running into the woods with a backpack full of canned food. Murphy's law.
Given that you know jack shit and have decided to ignore my advice, you, my friend, are fucking retarded. It's your money and your life, whatever dude.
Listen kid, you're getting some bullshit advice here.
Here's mine. Take it with whatever grain of salt you feel appropriate.
Buy guns based on reliability and availability of ammo. All other concerns are aesthetic and/or secondary.
What this means - firearms with commonplace magazines and ammuniton.
That means 9mm, 5.56/.223, 7.62x51/.308 and 12ga.
Ignore all boutique hunting or sporting cartridges that offer marginal improvement over more common parent cartridges at the cost of being vastly scarcer.
My suggested loadout: Glock 17 for sidearm Glock 19 for CCW AR-15 with a 14" Barrel with a decent optic and back up sights. Bolt Action Rifle in 7.62x51/.308 with decent glass. 12ga Pump action shotgun with multiple barrels. One short, one long.
Its not pretty. Its not particularly tasteful. But it is 100% practical. You will be able to acquire ammunition and/or mags from the people you trade with/work with/corpse loot.
Not only that but reloading components for all of the above are the cheapest and most widely available.
Anyone going into any kind of turmoil with a .243 is a fucking idiot who will be in deep shit once he's depleted the handful of rounds he has for his fudd durr rifle.
That's fine but for defense the issue is not that the round has or does not have stopping power it is in a city or suburban environment 30-06 is going to over penetrate and it is going over penetrate by quite a bit if you home is just framing and drywall. Keep in mind even in a defense situation you are responsible for every round fired.
I really want to stress that an AR-15 is really the best option for you purpose. You can get many size mags to limit how much you are shooting in a sitting. Or just go to the range and use discipline not to mag dump ammo.
This user pretty summed up my philosophy as well. But for the first gun get the AR-15 it can act as pretty much every other gun listed by him accept for the CCW.
Save the large cartridges for your fun guns if you are interested in that later. Like if you want to collect and shoot surplus rifles or hunt.
Jeremiah Barnes
>Listen, the only reason you'd buy a gun is because tomorrow the world is going to end before you can buy any ammunition!!!!!!!! It's time to stop being retarded.
Samuel Cooper
>File: 1491944286023.jpg (102 KB, 640x1156) agreed, that's how I went about it
Evan Gomez
Get a good bolt gun in .308 that has backup sights. Look beyond the cheapest options
Blake Smith
This guy gets it. Firearms are useless without ammo. Ammo is useless if it's not for your firearms. If it's been adopted by the military, get it, because there will always be surplus. If it's a boutique cartridge.... Buyer beware.
Also, don't plan on defending yourself with a bolt action. Either use a semi auto and shoot til they stop moving or hit them with 00 Buck for a one-shot-stop. Anything else is begging for something to go wrong.
"Hey guys, im just getting into golf. I need something thatll putt, drive, and chip all equally well. What should I get?" Look man, I'm not going to attempt to belittle you further than that but nothing will work great for everything. mossman 500 with two different barrels is about as clsoe as your getting
Xavier Green
DO NOT BUY REMINGTON. Remington is going bankrupt for a reason. The company was purchased by a firm called Freedom Group, which started cutting corners left and right to increase profits. All Remington guns saw a HUGE drop in quality. Eventually people caught on to this, so now their sales are in the toilet. Buy a Savage or Tikka if you insist on getting a bolt action.
>.30-06 Why? .308 is far more sensible and it is much easier to afford. You cannot git gud at marksmanship if you can't afford lots of ammo to practice with.
Easton Green
Cost isn't really an issue, since I'll be firing like 20 rounds a year out of the thing.
>Holy shit this is why you fucking TRAIN If I can shoot a human sized target 200 feet away and kill it with one or two shots, I don't need additional training.
Alright, convince me to buy an AR-15. I don't want something that'll just wound, I want something that kills. That's what this is for. I need a firearm that'll stop a threat quickly. Also, I've seen that AR-15s have a lot of complex parts. I'm almost tempted to just get one of those $150 survival break-open shotguns because they have so few failure points and they just work.
>Cost isn't really an issue, since I'll be firing like 20 rounds a year out of the thing. >If I can shoot a human sized target 200 feet away and kill it with one or two shots, I don't need additional training. >I'm almost tempted to just get one of those $150 survival break-open shotguns because they have so few failure points and they just work. Holy fucking shit, you can't actually be this stupid.
>I don't need additional training your brainlet pic fits perfectly, what good is a gun you can't use when you need it the most? hit the range and get used to your gun regardless of your pick, not only you will learn a valuable skill, you might also get into a fun hobby
Connor Smith
You’re in luck, user. I made this just for people in your situation: youtu.be/UTfZSNogbV0
Christian Wright
What's the point if I can hit things with it? The gun shoots a small projectile that penetrates a target. If I can load, aim, shoot, and clean the weapon, what's the issue? I don't see a point in fancy scopes or grips. I literally just want my fucking shooty stick that just werks.
Not OP but thank you for this. I come from the same background as you growing up as a noguns in a blue state.
Jonathan Taylor
>What's the point if I can hit things with it? because you likely cant (when it counts)
dunning-krueger effect
Jace Wilson
>what's the point if I can hit things with it if you don't at least get accustomed to how the sights work, you probably won't shooting is not like in a videogame
Ayden Bailey
The reason I would say get an AR-15 are listed above. the 5.56 and 223 round has been killing people for around 70 years, they work and will stop and attacker. However shot placement is key no matter what round you are putting in something, unless of course you are getting into some really large cartridges 50 cal or 20mm. ARs are actually pretty simple and field strip super easy I would not worry about that.
What will make you affect with a rifle is not the cartridge especially in the 100 to 400yd ranges. It will be your skill with that rifle which means practice and range time. This is also why I recommend the 5.56/.223 cartridge it is cheap and you will be able to get a lot more range time for your dollar.
The AR also offers you a huge range of easy upgrades, sights, and optics. If you started to really get into shooting and want to add to your rifle it's easy and readily available. I would suggest watching a few videos on youtube about them there are literally tons of videos with break downs on field stripping them and even going farther than that. It really is not very complicated. It can be a bit overwhelming but trust me it will become second nature if you spend range time and cleaning time with it. I am getting a bit of a vibe that you want to buy the gun and just have it. That simply will not do. Owning a firearm and being proficient takes practice and time. Not only for safety but to be competent with any gun you need to be comfortable and familiar with it. I would really suggest looking up courses near you. I would suggest looking up the Appleseed Project and seeing if they have an event near you. I have been through a bunch of their courses. They are friendly and totally welcoming to people who know nothing they will drill in safety and proper marksmanship. Another plus is the staff and people attending the course will most likely know the AR-15 and be able to help you with any problems.
Wyatt Moore
So what you guys are telling me is that I can't use a hunting rifle within a 200 foot distance to simply point and shoot using the iron sights? I'm somewhat doubtful.
>ARs are actually pretty simple and field strip super easy I would not worry about that But how durable are they? Generally, the more moving parts something has the more likely it is to malfunction at some point. Quite frankly if I were going to get a semi-automatic rifle I would probably just get an AK or something I can abuse the shit out of and never clean.
Also, how about background checks and other permit stuff? Can I go get an AR-15 just the same as shotgun, or does that fall under a different category from typical long guns? I can't find that info on the michigan.gov site.
ARs are durable there is no build quality difference between the rifle used by the US military. The AK is a great rifle as well but anymore they are not any moore or less reliable than most ARs. The AR platform has been tested in every battle field environment there is. If you get a good one again i recommend BCM but there are certainly others out there I just have personal experience with BCM so I am confortable shilling them, they will be very tough and reliable.
Owen Sanders
>So what you guys are telling me is that I can't use a hunting rifle within a 200 foot distance to simply point and shoot using the iron sights? I'm somewhat doubtful.
Depends on what you need to shoot, how and in what situation. Why would you not want to master your weapon, the tool you may need to rely for to protect the lives of yourself and your loved ones?
IMHO just maintaining acceptable level marksmanship requires thousands of rounds every year.
Robert Taylor
As far as regulation is concerned most place will sell them to you as long as you can pass the NICS check. Its no different than buying any other rifle. These are semi-auto weapons not fullauto.
Asher Anderson
Don't forget to completely spell out the state, no abreviations and if it's spelt wrong you gotta start over.
I used to sell guns, Everytime I buy one they always say "damn you went through that fast, most.people we gotta walk through)
Anthony Moore
>I'd have enough ammo already to hopefully allow me to fight my way out of the city.
You aren't going to be fighting your way out of anything with a bolt gun, it's not the 1800s anymore. If you piss off somebody with an AR, AK or some form of Battle Rifle, you are going to be full of holes faster than you'll know what happened.
Levi Carter
>come on this website >know you're retarded >disregard all advice Yea, buy a fucking Remington 700 in .30-06. Great home defense option.
Fucktard.
Aaron Cruz
>So what you guys are telling me is that I can't use a hunting rifle within a 200 foot distance to simply point and shoot using the iron sights? I'm somewhat doubtful. Depends what you are trying to hit and whether you are using a rest. Standing, with the kind of practice you want. A barn? Sure. A moving man sized target? Forget about it.
Robert Gutierrez
Also let me add that you may not see the need for red dots or optics but trust me on this they are easier to use than iron and do not obscure you target like iron sights do. The reason people use them IS BECAUSE the optic makes it easier to use and get that round on target. It is not really adding any complexity to the rifle. Don't worry about the optic durability either if you get good ones Aimpoint, Trijicon, or on the cheaper side Vortex, they can take abuse. More than you will probably put it through.
Brayden Phillips
I use a Vortex and I really like it. Pretty cheap as far as optics go, durable, and I've yet to change the battery or perform any maintenance on it.
Also, you don't -have- to get an AR but I wouldn't get a bolt gun if you plan on it being your only means of defense. ARs are the first choice for most people but there is nothing wrong with Mini-14s or AKs either.
Josiah Morales
A co-worker of mine just got one, they certainly seem well made and the glass was of good quality. I don't like that they are bigger than say Aimpoint but for the price they are legit. I also heard that Vortex is making a comparable red dot to the Aimpoint in size and weight now though, but I havn't looked into it much.
>The issue I'd probably have with any semi-automatic rifle is that I'd waste a bunch of ammo. If I can only hold four rounds at once and I have to manually eject the spent casings, I'll be more conservative with the ammo I have and I'll shoot more carefully.
Sigh. No.
Listen kid, ammo is expensive, and THAT is your actual limit - what you can spend to feed your rifle. You can easily shoot thousands of rounds in a single shooting session regardless of what gun you have, but you probably won't be taking thousands of rounds to the range. Whether you shoot what you bring in 5 seconds or 5 hours doesn't matter, the ammo is still gone. If you want to slow down and be more careful, then just...slow down and be more careful. The bullets are not going to leave the barrel unless you pull the trigger.
Andrew Taylor
> has no guns > 30-06 bolt action for home defense > thinks he can fire a rifle accurately w/ iron sights within 200 yards with no practice > ARs are 'complicated' and unreliable
Must be trolling or a neonatal fudd
Samuel Ward
He writes like somebody from Jow Forums or /o/. Those kids are dumb as hell.
Ryder Flores
He actually said feet. This has been an excellent troll thread and OP's efforts show. Well done, OP.
