What would the battle of Berlin have looked like if it was reached by the Americans first?
Would they have fared any better then the Soviets?
For comparison heres the stats for the Soviet battle of Berlin:
>360,000 Soviet casualties(80,000 dead)
>2000 tanks destroyed
>2000 Artillery pieces destroyed
>over 900 planes destroyed
>over 300,000 German casualties (100,000 dead)
>480,000 surrender
Total time: 16 days
discuss
There would be no battle. Germany would surrender to USA.
This. Germans knew they could actually negotiate conditional surrender to Americans. Russians were too much on a yard rage to accept anything but an unconditional surrender.
I'd punch you in your retarded gay face.
Why do you think the western allies would have agreed to a conditional surrender? The US went for unconditional surrender with the Japanese.
Damn you're probably right, but not even the prospect of battle for the outskirts you think? I mean Hitler is still alive at this point, i know he wasn't the most popular but would every one really just run on him the moment the US came over the horizon, take into account the US has been bombing the living shit out of Civilian centers for over a year at this point, particularly Berlin.
not if I punch you first
>Would they have fared any better then the Soviets?
Most definitely. Soviets sent tanks ahead of infantry and lost a ridiculous amount of them to teenagers with panzerfausts
Mass surrenders all around. (Most fighting at that point was Germans holding off Soviets so they could get to the West to surrender.) Some US casualties due to SS holdouts and overextension.
Soviets pissed, especially if we don't give their shit back.
Same ultimate result on the large scale.
Maybe the Czechs don't go commie, if we take Prague too.
>Soviets sent tanks ahead of infantry
No they did not. What they did - gathered up to 295 artillery pieces per KM of a front line.
They did in Berlin. They lost a lot of tanks in the last few days of the war, some French SS guy got himself a Knight's Cross "thanks" to them.
>They did in Berlin.
They did not.
Soviets rushed hard to capture Berlin before the Western Allies, thus they had high casualties.
So it wasn't the tactics that were at fault, merely subhuman crews. In the end they still lost tons of tanks in there
because Japs bombed pearl harbor, the Germans didn't. Also, same race of people.
i forgot to mention, similar/same religion. Same language group. a whole bunch of shit.
Hate to pull the meme, but Patton could've been there first
Americans wouldn't have accepted a conditional surrender you clowns
And they would've had to give up the conquered territory anyways, the Allies had already divided Germany up in spheres of interest
en.wikipedia.org
Pretty much this.
Patton could only even make if first to the bottom of the bottle.
>And they would've had to give up the conquered territory anyways, the Allies had already divided Germany up in spheres of interest
They already knew they were never gonna make it
If they actually held the territory it would have been far different
Our worst mistake was not pushing to Berlin, accepting a German surrender, then rearming them under Patton and letting him loose to stomp out Communism.
This but unironically.
>Start war to save Poland from Socialists
>Surrender Poland to other Socialists
>rearming them under Patton
With beverage?
>japan going to issue conditional surrender
>oh well drop the bomb anyway, lets see what it does to people
>Not rearming Americans with German gear
also I want my Schmittfire
Don't forget spending the next half century destabilizing most the world destroying any goodwill we had to "fight Communism" all while letting leftists infiltrate our government, society, and culture resulting in what we see today.
We had one, ONE, chance to really help humanity progress and we fucking blew it. Now we're stuck with a brown invasion and bloated welfare state made by those educated under KGB supported academics.
Serves you right, should've stuck playing soldiers on your shitty side of the globe with Monroe doctrine.
Don't worry lad, the earth was always going to be fucked. Luckily space travel's costs are dropping into the realms of (very large or wealthy) private groups.
Fact is SpaceX currently offers the capacity to shift massive amounts of weight for (relative) low cost into low earth orbit. 63,800 (non-reusable) or 23,000 (reusable) KG with the Falcon heavy at 90,000,000 million US dollars.
This means that each rocket could in it's fully reusable mode shift two of these:
en.wikipedia.org
Into orbit and still have 5,763.2 KG of lifting capacity still for use. Meaning the rocket could either manoeuvre into a higher orbit (potentially even into the orbit of another body), connect onto other modules lifted into orbit earlier or lift other things alongside this primary payload to help fund this effort or so on.
Sadly no pricing is given for the payload example I have chosen, so I can't tell you how much this total package would cost. My main point is, don't worry, so long as we survive the next 15 years humanity odd to make it off earth in sizeable numbers.
>the Waffen SS retakes their blood oath for Patton becoming an esoteric order purposefully rebuilt to stomp bolshevick scum
>Whermacht is rebuilt with american kit
>strategic bombing is now shifted to focus on Moscow
>central rail lines in russia are fucked
>lend lease aid is no longer floating the Soviet war machine
>entire red army is caught with their pants down, again
>Ukrainians jump ship, again, and becoming an american foreign legion
>Moscow is torched in a matter of months
>Stalin's head is put on a pike and paraded around eastern europe
>all remnants of the soviet union are stamped out
Thats a timeline I could live with.
I want to believe, but when Churchill quietly proposed just that he was told to fuck off. Here's why:
>1:2 inferioity in armored division equivalents
>1:4 inferiority in infantry
We weren't making any offensives against that for some time.
The original documents for Operation Unthinkable:
web.archive.org
New link:
web.archive.org
When the BRITISH are calling an operation "fanciful", you know it can't happen.
Weird how Russia would be angry after ~13 million innocent civilians were murdered by the country they're invading. Seems unreasonable to be angry about such a thing
understandable,but it only made the germansfight harder/hold out longer so their population could flee and surrender to the yanks.
>Soviets being angry over innocents being murdered
>Americans firebomb Berlin into oblivion
>Berlin is now a parking lot
>Do it again Bomber Harris
just joking, I have no idea
>Starting a new war after just ending the largest conflict ever endured by Europe against a former ally
Yeah theres absolutely no way you can sell this fight to the public.
I suspect that there was a condition of Japanese surrender that the US found acceptable, especially considering Soviets poised to bring the war East; The Emperor remaining nominal head of state and immunity from war crimes prosecution.
Imagine if the Soviets invaded and Hokkaido and northern Honshu became Peoples Democratic Republic of Japan and ended up much like North Korea...
>by the country they are invading
they deserved it
Stalin killed just as many if not more of his own population during the 20's and 30's and more during/post-war. Stalin almost successfully erased entire ethnic groups in the Balkans and Caucasus, something Hitler didn't come close to with the Jews. Why do the civilians killed by Germans (who were defending their homeland) upset you more than those who voluntarily went to the gulag to die or were outright shot?
We barely even went for them keeping the Emperor after the bombs dropped. No way the people who surprise attacked us are getting off war crimes trials.
And Soviet sealift capacity basically disn't exist. The Kurils were a stretch, so forget about Hokkiado.
Years ago while I was still in college my prof. (Who was a huge Patton fan, I'm really indifferent) and I got into an argument over who would win in a followup war between the western Allies and the USSR.
We argued for a while about it but eventually concluded that it would be a draw. The reason for that is 2 things. The US has not been really good at taking massive casualties and maintaining domestic support. And 2 is the land coverage. Let's say Patton did push from the west, and started beating the Soviets back, the What? He would be pushing through rubble of cities the Soviets leave behind. Soviet factories are deep behind the Urals so good luck hitting those. The Chinese communists were winning in the east and the Soviets had alot of land they could give up before regrouping.
The Soviets wouldn't win because of its already large numbers of casualties and over extended supply lines. Their factories were already very far east, going further west while actively fighting the western Allies would be very difficult which is why most likely they would fall back.
But who knows, Patton was a great officer from the shit I read about him, really cared about his men and his men loved him because of that. Much respect to him, even though he did basically call all my grandfather's subhuman or mongoloids or some shit
>The Soviets wouldn't win because of its already large numbers of casualties and over extended supply lines
They were also suffering from extreme war exhaustion at home and experienced a huge famine in 1946. They also had no high altitude aviation to speak of which would've left them helpless against strategic bombing raids, had the Allies continuously smashed the Moscow and Leningrad rail heads the Soviets would've been utterly crippled. They likely would've had to loot Europe for food and considering how bad a shape it was in, this would've likely lead to widespread famine across about half of the continent.
The red army falling back to Russian lines and lend lease collapsing with the idea that the USA would be "liberating" Russia would cause the collapse of the soviet union and would have been a repeat of 1917.
Hell, if the USA was smart they could make a deal with Zhukov
Knowing Stalin and his batshit brand of retardation, it's not entirely off the books that he could just order soldier to swim to the Kurils islands.
You can't make deals with those guys dude. As big as he was and as frightened as Stalin was of his influence post war, don't forget Stalin literally had thousands of NKVD troops on his side. If anything the allies would of pulled the same shit they did with Hess and just stuck him in prison.
If the US really wanted to be a champion for Democracy, they should of supported Kolchak during the civil war. General Graves cucked the White Army by being a baby back bitch and letting his personal disliking of Kolchak get in the way of fully committing the US Siberian expedition to the conflict they were sent to help resolve.
The NKVD would have been wiped out of Zkukov ordered it and he knew he had the backing, supplies and logistics of the USA.
Eh I think it would be wayyyy more complex than that.
1st. If zhukov all of a sudden turned on Stalin and the people loyal to Zhukov listened what about the common soldier? Those dudes fought for 4 years knowing that Stalin was the supreme leader and the one ultimately directed the generals to victory would just say "Fuck it let's kill this nigga"
I'm pretty sure the regular Soviet soldier saw Stalin as the USSR personified (Which all of my grandparents did) wouldn't just turn on him.
What would most likely happen is the whole situation would be spun like Zhukov was just like the dude (his name escapes me) who turned to the German side and founded the ROA under the Wermacht which would effectively make him an enemy of the people. And then bam, GG m8 WP. Zhukov is in prison and there is another purge
Only Russians can murder Russian innocents.
Correct me if I'm wrong but that appears to only be counting British Units, not American and other allied units.
>fare better
I think it's safe to say that there'd be much fewer lives lost due to the Germans respecting the Anglos more and being more willing to surrender. It'd still be bloody though.