Body Armor

>expects serious discussion about all the use people are getting of out their plates and not the same 20 anons trying to find a sale
there's a reason we don't have these threads regularly

why is it illegal to wear body armor from the USA to Mexico?

>hurr durr muh ceramics

Fuck off. The spartan armor III+ will defeat m193 out of a 20" at like 20 fucking feet.

youtube.com/watch?v=6RGdXv8YMFA

I bought a set of these
spartanarmorsystems.com/ar550-body-armor-10x12-shooters-cut-set-of-two/
When they were first released.

Thetargetman was the initial maker and he's been doing AR500 targets and shit for fucking ever. His shit is as trustworthy as I need.

I don't intend to play OPERATOROPERATOROPERATOR prancing around all day playing airshit. I'm not a soldier hiking miles in my armor. I wanted inexpensive plates to be able to throw on in dire need and not have to worry about ceramic cracking when it takes a fall/hit. Steel holds up better long term.

If you've got the money to spend, and it sounds like you do, OP, then by all means get ceramics. They are lighter and all that jazz. But don't let these mouthbreathers keep telling you that AR500 is useless. It's just fuckin heavy is all.

Then you shouldn't have clicking on the thread.

This is pretty much what I expected from Jow Forums. A whole lot of internet experts making claims they can't back up (m193 is a better perpetrator than m855 ball) and providing no data or alternative products except for restricted plates they've never even been in the same room as. Fuck off buddy.

>here's all the info
>here's all the plates
>I don't actually know where or how to get them

Why even enter the thread? Part of the question was where and how to get them. Not advise on a model and be a dick about the rest of the question.

On a side note, both of the companies I listed have NIJ certification.
>tims.justnet.org/Report/BallisticCPL

The question as I clearly stated in the first sentence is what OTHER companies are good. What do you have PERSONAL experience with and will sell to civilians? If you want to jerk off to mil only plates you've never even touched feel free but it wasn't what I was asking for.

Whether you want Level III or Level IV should be entirely based on what threats you seek to face. Some posts here seem to believe that Level IV is just outright superior to Level III in the protection department, which is completely incorrect. The Level III rating of the NIJ 0101.06 standard calls for protection from at least six 7.62x51mm M80 rounds while Level IV calls for only one hit from .30-06 M2AP. For all intents and purposes a Level IV only has to be a single-hit plate to pass the test. On the second point, M193 is not automatically better than M855 at penetration. M193 is much more dangerous against Steel plates thanks to its dramatically higher velocity, but M855 is just as lethal as M193 to certain ceramic compositions. People, there's a lot of nuance and detail being overlooked here. If you fear having to take multiple hits of either 5.56x45mm FMJ or 7.62x51mm FMJ, then grab a Level III or a Level III+ (A III+ can be certified as a III so look around for that base certification before calling all + plates bogus). If you know you're facing AP threats like .30-06 M2AP and M61 7.62x51mm and only need the plate to shrug off one hit, then grab an NIJ certified Level IV plate. If you expect something somewhat stronger than .30-06 M2AP, then grab a Level IV+ plate (do your homework on it) and get 7.62x54mm B-32 API protection on top of .30-06 M2AP. The only linear upgrade from III to IV protection is a III/IV dual-rating plate and those are generally not civilian-accessible.

kek tl;dr

Attached: d33.jpg (600x657, 35K)

Hey I gotta be honest I'd ask for a TL;DR too if I weren't legitimately interested in the topic.

Yes, it's a lighter projectile traveling at hundreds of feet per second faster than M855. Speed kills, and as tests have shown, M193 goes through Level 3 rifle plates like butter. Usually it requires a 20" barrel for optimal performance (which is partly why people meme about 20" ar builds), but m193 can penetrate level 3 rifle plates out of a 16" and possibly shorter barrel if you're close enough.
Sources (you can find more videos, but these are good examples): youtu.be/RD7NvKzzWFE?t=7m41s , youtube.com/watch?v=oMYkEMhPsO8?t=30s

>They're bullshit people who make cheap ass plates for survivalist Gomers came up with after they got caught lying about their standards when everyone figure out that M193 will punch their shit.
No, armor companies who tested their plates to NIJ Level 3 specifications did their job. Level 3 rifle plates are rated on their ability to stop .308 NATO rounds traveling at 2780±30fps. They didn't account for 5.56 NATO projectiles travelling at 3000+ FPS.

Attached: NIJ Standard-0101.06 - Armor Ratings.png (785x816, 59K)

Both of the plates you linked are Steel and not Ceramic or Polyethylene. That's a very narrow view of what "Level III" is if you ask me. Ceramics are much better off than Steels at handling higher velocity projectiles.

Lvl 3 ar500 is garbage.

Get Lvl 4 ceramic or don't waste your time.

Attached: PhotoGrid_1530413188570.jpg (2560x2560, 1.62M)

Get a Level IV Ceramic if you value single-hit protection from steel-core AP over the six shot multi-hit protection of Level III. That's the real draw between these Ceramics.

Type in "Hesco Lvl 4 ceramic" on youtube. Video of it being shot multiple times with an AK47 at close range and then multiple times with an AR15 at close range.

Hesco LVL 4 ceramic will stop multiple 5.56/7.62.

I never said all plates of the same rating are identical. Sure, the Hesco plate in your case is capable against Level III threats but that's only one Level IV plate out of many and only one plate out of one batch of that one design from that one company. That's not a foundation to judge all Level IVs, but merely a fair point that some IVs are multi-hit capable. I'd rather trust NIJ Certification over a few plates at most withstanding 7.62x39mm and 5.56x45mm. Worst case scenario, a Level IV plate only has to take one shot and a Level III has to take six. That's the standard and plenty of plates will exceed that, sure, but not all of them can or will.

youtu.be/568iPZ98UYI

This is the video I was talking about. It is 2 min 51 sec long.

The hesco lvl4 ceramic stopped 2 7.62x39 and 4 5.56 at like 10 feet. No penetration at all. Good lvl4 stuff will be multi hit.

Why get a lvl3 that will get anhiliated by .30-06 black tip (and most common hunting calibers like .270, .308, .3006) when you can get Lvl4 and be safe from all them AND still get multi hit protection for modern sporting rifle cartridges.

Serious question.

Can you double up on plates? I always see plate carriers recommended for a plate AND trauma pad. Can you skip the trauma pad and add 2 plates instead? Like two Lvl3 back to back.

I never disagreed with you that good Level IV will be multi-hit. I merely made note of the minimum "floor" rating that these plates have to meet for certification. Level III plates of similar quality are lighter, cheaper, or thinner because frankly, not everyone needs or wants protection from steel-core APs. That video only shows one test, and that test alone cannot speak for all Level IVs.

Anyone have any experience with UHWMPE armor?
It seems like the perfect armor to me other than the cost. Stupidly low weight (less than 1.3 lbs) and the plate here says it protects against high velocity M193 like talks about.
spartanarmorsystems.com/uhmwpe-level-iii-10x12-set-of-two/

Anyone know of any dealbreakers?

You generally do not require a trauma pad behind a ceramic plate but they're extremely useful if you have a steel plate. Doubling-up on steel plates is possible (and done from time to time) since typical AR500 is only 3/8" thick but the setup will get extremely heavy. However, since most ceramics are around an inch thick, you'll be dealing with a lot of bulk. It's perfectly possible to double up on plates, but it's rarely recommended considering ergonomics and weight.

Fair enough.

Im seeing a 10x12 Lvl4 hesco for $150 and an ar500 lvl3+ 10x12 with paxon coating for $120. For only $30 difference id probably want the lvl 4.

If lvl4 was hundreds more, then I wouldn't. But when the difference in price is so close I just dont see the point in lvl3.

NIJ-Certified UHWMPE plates are rock solid, but be careful about backface deformation. The NIJ permits up to 44mm, which is high enough to cause internal injury with some people. A trauma pad between the plate and your vitals would suit you well with it to help spread out the force.

Attached: PhotoGrid_1530414031951.jpg (2560x2560, 2.01M)

Considering the AR500 is heavier by a substantial amount and also considering that AR500 is the weakest of the big three (Ceramic, Steel, Polyethylene) against AP ammunition, I would also take the Hesco.

What steel plates should I buy for my training/loaner setup?

honest question.
how the fuck do plates cost so much?

its fucking steel plates used to stop bullets. you could make your own. this isnt some high technology difficult to replicate.

I get it. its lightweight polymers or whatever it is.
but 1k$ on metal plates? I really dont get it. what am I missing here?

The AR500 business is founded upon hype and Fuddlore. While some steel plates are indeed very valid, most of them are definitely not something you should be entrusting your life towards.

If you're just using them for training and loaning then just go with whatever option suits your wallet. Every time you buy a steel plate, you may as well be rolling dice on whether you get AR400 or AR500. Some higher-end steels like AR550, AR650, and AR680 mitigate this lottery but with mere AR500 you're still playing the game. Just go by what you can afford and what actually has NIJ certification.

Ceramics cost so much, mostly because the technology and manufacture is legitimately expensive. AR500, being the only alternative, only has to be moderately less expensive to be attractive.

Supply and demand. Idiots who can't afford ceramics want body armor and smart people supply it with a minimum of tooling and material at an outrageous markup. Murika'!

Tactical scorpion gear sells ultra poverty level 3 steel pates for $84 a pair on ebay

>Yeah... seems legit.

TSG1012BRC
Listed right on the NIJ website as certified. Dont know what issue you have with it besides it having the usual issues of steel.

Very well, that solves my only issue with it.

I understand.
but really lets say at a cost of 2lbs per plate. and you used some ergonomic scrap metal. whatever would be best and cheapest for ballistics.

there wouldnt be much of a difference between performance right? I mean ceramics stop bullets. so does lots of other expensive materials. but so does cheap metal.

I just dont get why there arent 60$ plates out there.
unless there is and Im completely unaware.

Attached: annieyouvebeenhitby.gif (500x281, 386K)

well fuck. I got proved wrong before I could post.
thank you level headed user.

Tactical Scorpion apparently has NIJ-certified $84 a pair plates on Ebay according to an user just before you, so I suppose there are plates cheaper than $60. Nonetheless, most dealers just won't go lower when people are perfectly willing to pay $120 a plate for a piece of metal that may or may not actually make rating because of inconsistency in the metal. Oh, and just for future reference, NIJ 0101.07 is going to slaughter steel plates out of the industry.

what is your gif from

no idea. all I can tell you is that its annie clark from St. Vincent.

if you've never listened to St. Vincent check her out on youtube. its probably one of the videos. saw her live. really good.

Anybody have a say on hoplite plates? Ive tried to look for reviews and tests online of their ceramic lvl 4 plates but there hasnt been many videos on it.
The wound channel did shoot it with a AP .308 as well as 7 rounds of m855
youtu.be/1sd8OyIhwV0

>what OTHER companies are good
Protective Products and Hesco, to the best of my knowledge have never been caught misrepresenting their products. They both deliver quality products that maintain a high level of ballistic integrity after having been struck.

Armor is a complicated issue and there are very few easy answers. Even the steelfags have legit gripes.

No armor is perfect and there's always room for improvement. Everyone has their legitimate gripes.

>Sure, the Hesco plate in your case is capable
The problem is that the 4400 plate is $130, setting the bar for economy plates. They are heavy but outperform almost everything else.

>that solves my only issue with it
Are you OK with the NIJ 44mm BFS allowance? DoD is walking away from it. Steel meets the 44mm allowance but ceramic does a better job.

What steel plate brand would you recommend? Again, for my backup/training/loaner rig.

>Anyone know of any dealbreakers?

M855 cuts it like butter. Steel penetrator literally cuts it.

When I was a college poorfag I was looking into non ballistic steel trainer plates just so I could work out in my plate carrier. Midway ended up running an ar500 half off sale so I got a full set of their lvliii+. I guess it'll stop some bullets, but it works well for my intentions (training). I'm about to start a new job where I'll be able to afford some lvl iv ceramics, at which point I'll be upgrading.

How much do trauma pads help with the impact force from bullets hitting steel?

Also wondering, couldn't you instead put a soft-body armor/kevlar "plate" behind your steel plate instead to get the force dissipation (since its soft, idk, spit-balling here) while getting some extra penetration protection?

Some plates in use with the US Military often require a BALCS soft insert behind them regardless of the worn vest to acquire their actual rating. These are generally non-standard plates outside the SAPI-ESAPI-XSAPI system.

CATI and Spartan Armor Systems seem to be safe bets.

I personally think, as someone who invested a lot of time researching the industry, that the NIJ 0101.06 and even 0101.07 standards are far too lax. The list of protected threats and the Level I to Level IV system has been in use since 1972. The 44mm BFS of the NIJ Standard is too high. GOST 50774-95 plates from Russia have a maximum BFS of 17mm and that goes for ceramics, steels, and titanium plates.

I'd want to see them outperform an RMA Model #1189 before giving them that honor. Sure, the RMA is more expensive but you have to put your life behind a plate, so it better be a good one. I'll give the Hescos credit though, they're cheap and have decent performance for their price.

And onto your other point, the difference between being hit with just a steel plate in your vest and a steel plate backed by a trauma pad? This depends on your body shape and weight for a definitive answer, but the trauma pad will help you out substantially regardless. It's certainly nice to have and it's better to have it than not to.

AR500, the most tested body armor out there.

You can easily see videos on youtube that AR500 level III+ stops m193, AP 5.56 and .308.

And they only cost $90 a plate for a 10x12 too.
ar500armor.com/ar500-armor-body-armor/level-iii-body-armor-en/ar500-armor-10-x-12-asc-level-iii-body-armor.html

There's an honor code or market standardization among the big-time armor corporations regarding + standards and other unofficial NIJ Standards. I'll read the unofficial ones off:

IIIA+: Protection from liberty defense 9x19mm that can pierce IIIA and hotter versions of 5.7x28mm.
III+: Protection from M193 and M855.
III++: Protection from 7.62x39mm BZ API.
IV-: Protection from SS109 and M855, no .30-06 M2AP.
IV+: 7.62x54mm B-32 API.
III/IV: Indicates a plate is rated for both Level III and Level IV threats.
III/IV+: Indicates a plate is rated for Level III all the way up to Level IV+ threats.
There are of course exceptions to the above rules. ATT Armor makes a plate that is "NIJ Level IV+" but is rated for M993 and M995 and some people switch III+ and III++ protection ratings from time to time.

You might need meds if you cant focus long enough to read 3 paragraphs, boo boo.

Guessing BFS has to do with the blunt force trauma on clay we see done in videos? Does that mean the russian plates you're talkibg about have less force transfer/deformation?
If not, would really appreciate an explanation on whst your talking about with the 44mm and 17mm stuff

That's mostly correct. The maximum extent of the back of the plate's deformation is what is considered the backface deformation (BFD) while the backface signature (BFS) is what one would see on clay. GOST 50774-95 plates, in perhaps GOST-6A rating are dramatically more robust than NIJ counterparts. GOST-6A calls for 5-10 hits of 7.62x54mm B-32 API with a maximum of 17mm BFD. An NIJ-IV+ plate only has to take one hit of 7.62x54mm B-32 API while also only having to have 44mm BFD or less. The GOST 50774-95 plates are going to have a lot less deformation per-shot considering the multi-hit requirements but force transfer is another thing. Steel plates have extremely low BFD because of their material properties but GOST 50774-95 also covers Ceramic and Steel-Titanium plates too. There are ceramic technologies out there that enable multi-hit capacity despite the neccessity of a ceramic plate to shatter to absorb energy, such as tiled ceramic plates (RMA uses these). Thus, whether a GOST plate has more or less force transfer than a NIJ counterpart entirely depends on its material and what technologies have gone into it. Rest assured however, GOST-6A Ceramics are a lot stronger than NIJ-IV+ counterparts. I do not believe many, if any steel GOST plates extend beyond GOST-5 however.

So where can one acquire these plates?

I'm surprised how lax the NIJ standards are like you said earlier. Especially the BFS stuff, seeing the test with clay and the craters that are left...yeah you're not dead, but you'll likely have internal bleeding.

Attached: otmm.gif (300x169, 925K)

The NIJ 0101 Standard, from which 0101.06 is descended from, comes from 1972, which was a time with substantially lower-grade ceramic technology. This explains why the standard seems so weak compared to GOST. A lot of Level IV plates can pull lower BFD than 44mm but the NIJ standards are the basic values that have to be depended on since no two plates will ever act exactly the same.

Most GOST-6A plates are recent military manufacture and so surplus will be difficult to find given the plates would have to come from the Russian Federation and somehow make their way here in like-new shape. Furthermore, there's a lot of fake Airsoft replicas of 6B45 GOST-6A rated plates so you're totally rolling dice if you're buying plates off the internet. In short, you're gonna have to just look around and find authentic Russian surplus before somebody else does.

I also just double-checked and it seems there's a law in Russia that prevents the export of these GOST Ceramic Plates. The only ones that make it out are training plates. So if you want one of these GOST-6A plates you'll need to get it (or wait for it to be) smuggled out of Russia. There's a similar ITAR Export Controlled Product limitation in the United States for body armor so this is not unprecedented.