>”9mm Luger is much better now!”
You can’t get around physics. Paul accidentally proves that 9mm isn’t better than it was is in 1985. Paul conducts the same lateral shot as the FBI Miami shootout through the humerus and it couldn’t get to the heart whereas the .40 S&W plowed through the heart to the other side. Why haven’t you switched to .40 Strong and Wünderbar yet?
because it hurts basedboy wrists when shooting.
>Why haven’t you switched to .40 Strong and Wünderbar yet?
Because I am not giving my my 9's just to spend more money on something almost identical. If I change at all, I'm going with 10mm.
Tests start at 13:00
because it wanted to be 10mm but it was full of little bitch
nope. the feds are full of little bitch.
What a farce.
you’re a massive faggot .40sw is somehow more cucked than shitty 9mm
All this 9mm salt. Try this
>Hurrr durrr .357 mag is so powerful omigoodness!!!
>40 short and weak, am I rite guys hehehe
I don't even own a 40. I'll straight up admit I prefer 9mm due to being able to handle the recoil much better, I have no pride in that regard, if that makes me a basedboy, so be it. But after doing a little bit of research, 40S&W comes VERY close to .357 levels of power.
If someone can handle the snappy .40s&w, I don't see why they shouldn't carry it.
>inb4 10mm
Willing to bet 99% of the people who bring up 10mm every time .40 is brought up, they don't own a 10mm
Many people can barely handle recoil of a .40s&w and now they're talking about carrying a 10mm instead lol
All these cognitive dissonant fools who don't want to admit that .40s&w was nowhere near as bad or "basically 9mm" as they were told, and followed blindly.
Had the FBI never switched back to 9mm, everyone here would be carrying a .40
this guys videos are the epitome of fuddlore.
I think both are neat calibers
What about Paul Harrel’s video where he shows 9 mm +P ammo is worthless, only increases velocity by 50 feet per second?
Paul has officially btfo 9mm.
>I don't even own a 40. I'll straight up admit I prefer 9mm due to being able to handle the recoil much better, I have no pride in that regard, if that makes me a basedboy, so be it. But after doing a little bit of research, 40S&W comes VERY close to .357 levels of power.
Preferring 9mm doesn’t make you a basedboy. But when others deny that .40 is better that makes them a fucking retard. The .40 S&W was literally designed from the ground up to be superior to the alternatives. .357 SIG and .40 S&W are next generation shit and just better all around to the 9mm and .45. That’s not to say the 9mm and .45 ACP are bad - they’re good in fact - but they were developed literally over 100 years ago. .40 S&W has better energy and sectional density in general and has great potential
>”Look mom, I called the man who took time and money to make a nuanced, fairly comprehensive video on two calibers a ‘fudd’”
Is .357 sig a true compromise then?
>because it wanted to be 10mm
No, it didn't. S&W aren't idiots, they saw that 10mm allowed for a larger mass projectile which has always had benefits but saw that to be an effective combat cartridge recoil had to be tamed. 10mm semi autos were already using (and still are outside of boutique loads) a lighter charge than they were/are capable of on paper. S&W just used common sense and shortened the case to create a round that performed exactly as 10mm realistically was being used in a smaller package.
Women don't design cartridges nor do they load them. Women weren't the ones loading 10mm for semi autos and they certainly weren't the ones shooting 10mm autos. .40s&w wasn't a compromise for women, it was looking at the comprise loaders were already making and a taking advantage of the work handloaders had already done to find the sweet spot.
>stop using 9mm for CC
>.40S&W goes through niggers like curry through pajeet
>get arrested and simultaneously sued for manslaughter, assault and/or property damage due to penetration beyond Tyrone's chest cavity
nah, I'm going to stick to a round that stays inside of Tyrone.
>>wifes son
his "tests" are about as unscientific as you could possibly make scientific tests.
how many bullets it takes to "break cinder blocks into smaller pieces" is a worthless metric
"meat targets" are not human targets so what's the point of trying to replicate humans
oranges are not lungs, leather jackets are not skin
no one cares if you can shoot from the hip because you'd never do this outside of the old west.
all pistol cartridges are for pussies
real men use a .357 revolver and a 5.56 AR
This, also he used 115gr instead of the probably more popular and effective 147gr HST.
>his "tests" are about as unscientific as you could possibly make scientific tests.
That's why they're good, retards like yourself who jack off to ballistics gel tests and ballistics data are the LAST people who know shit about real life performance.
>the bullet killed him too good!
The absolute state of 9mm fags. I defy you to find one case last year in which a person shot someone with a .40 S&W in the thoracic cavity in self defense, continued through a wall, into victim which it then wounded or killed. Over penetration is fucking myth that was initially proposed by chiefs of departments beholden to (((democratic)))) mayors to reduced collateral damage so they could use rounds that actually kill. Fuck off with your invented issue
>shooting a block of Jell-O is a more valid way!
How does it feel that your hours of watching TNOutdoors videos are worthless. Bone, real clothing and meat are MUCH better approximates of a person than a block of jello you idiot
In the last thread discussing .40cal the argument was that 9mm was the superior penetrator
I’m not shooting at some dudes arm in a self defense situation, I’m shooting directly into center of mass. Even .380 is fine at that. Penetration is overblown when it comes to self defense.
People don’t stand static and let you shoot them in the chest. They move, flinch, throw up their arms or you may need to shoot sideways. You aren’t at the range
Are you looking for the ideal round to pull a Cho user?
>40S&W comes VERY close to .357 levels of power.
No. Also:
>implying "POWAH" is an effective means of quantifying the effectiveness of a round
.357S is no compromise my child, it is the future.
135gr +p critical duty is one of the best rounds on the market in terms of controlled expansion and increased penetration. That's why the FBI adopted it along with many other LEAs. 147gr HST tends to penetrate less than it tbqh.
>being this retarded
Imagine a man is using a standard isosceles stance and pointing a firearm at you. what's between you and his upper thoracic cavity? Now do the same but his body is bladed so that his left side is facing you and he's holding a gun in his left arm out stretched towards you. Real life isn't obligated to follow your LARP dreams, that's why the 12" minimum is a thing.
ballistic gelatin isn't supposed to replicate a human body, it's supposed to give a repeatable basis for comparison. that's why ballistic gelatin blocks are calibrated, how the fuck are you going to calibrate your oranges and pork steak targets?
No idiot. Pic related
.40 S&W does come close to .357 mag in terms of power for 155 grain loads and 180 is pleasant to shoot if you prefer heavier bullets
Real life is extremely unlikely for you to come up against someone actually using a proper firearms stance. Most likely is some nigger one handing the fucking thing, with the other hand outstretched for you to put your wallet in. Even more likely is for the nigger to have a knife instead of a gun.
This is old. This thread is garbage. .40 is useless 9mm is the future cry harder fags.
Thought they used gold dot?
Doesn't really matter, he tested an uncommon/outdated round.
If you're banking on the most likely scenario then you don't even need a gun.
Paul BTFOs this very argument in his Miami dade video.
quick math
>125gr proj at 1600fps = 711 ftlbs
>155gr proj at 1300fps = 582 ftlbs
>129 ftlbs difference or roughly 22%
>greater velocity also means that the .357 will create higher peak forces in terms of energy over time
>124gr proj @ 1300 fps = 465
>155gr proj @ 1300 fps = 582
>117ftlbs or roughly 25%
>identical velocity means that rounds will have less difference in peak forces with comparable penetration depths
>all with 4" bbl length
.40 is closer to 9mm in terms of POWAH than it is to .357. although talking merely about power and peak forces is fucking stupid and it's when the metal meets the meat with actual market offerings that the gulf widens.
>its extremely unlikely that you'll ever need a round to penetrate through a forearm and or arm or other non ideal shot line
>that's why all modern police forces and respected ballistics experts base their recommendations off that very thing
Not everybody bases their firearms choice on "what's the most barely adequate round for executing a non aggressive person with their hands at their sides using a perfect frontal thoracic shot"
press.hornady.com
Critical duty is one of the newest well respected designs on the market newfriend. Calling them outdated and uncommon is hilarious.
Learn the read, I'm talking about the 115gr.
>learn the read
Riiiiiight. you replied to me when i specified i was talking about the critical duty round, the first sentence of your post is talking about what rounds the FBI is using(again, critical duty) and then with no transition you refer to the round he tested(both CD and 115gr whatever) as being both outdated and uncommon. why o why would i think you meant critical duty?
Learn to write.
>that's why all modern police forces and respected ballistics experts base their recommendations off that very thing
You, me, and most of the people on this board are not police. Police do have to deal with possibly taking shots at suspects behind cover or at awkward positions. Regular citizen involved shootings, that is rare. Even more so for shootings that aren’t home invasions.
For example, in the summer I carry a J-frame with hornady critical defense ammo. I don’t defend my house with this, it’s not my go to war handgun, it’s just a great size gun in a caliber that has good and consistent hollowpoint expansion. I’m not worried about not getting enough penetration versus say a 9x19 +P load, because I prepare for what is the most likely situation for me, the single thug looking to get my wallet.
What we really need are better documented citizen involved shootings to tell when the penetration is really necessary. Based on Paul’s meat targets, we know .38spl standard pressure will go through bone and through soft tissue. That’s enough for me.
>No u
K retard
Whoops, didn't watch the entire video.
Sorry about that m8.
Quick REAL math
Underwood .40 S&W
135 grains
1500fps
675 ft lbs of energy
Yeah... Sure thing buddy.... ."40 is closer to 9mm than .357" whatever you want to believe.
Not only is .40s&w much stronger, but unlike .357, you have anywhere between 13 and 16 in a magazine fed weapon.
I'm just waiting for you to bring up "might as well carry 10mm instead" like all 9mm fags eventually do.
Stop scaring the sheep
Their website says the .40s&w 135gr load is
Muzzle Velocity: 1400 fps
Muzzle Energy: 588 ft lbs
Same boat as you user. When going into dangerous nig nog neighborhoods I will deal with the hassle of IWB carry of a Glock 19 with 15+1 +P hollowpoints, and an extra mag in the pocket.
But generally speaking, the majority of the time, I carry a J-frame revolver in .38 special, I use the FBI load. But I'm a big guy and really can't feel the difference between shooting regular .38 or .38+p, so I go with plus p, might as well if it doesn't affect my shooting.
Either way, I wouldn't feel outgunned because I can put all 5 rounds in the head or center chest at 7 yards. The important thing I tell all my J-frame fags, is to train with your J-frame.
You'd be surprised to see how many people train with Full sized handguns at the range, and pocket carry a little gun they rarely train with.
>You, me, and most of the people on this board are not police. Police do have to deal with possibly...
Frankly i find it pretty ridiculous that you seem to be suggesting that a civilian needing to put rounds on target with an individual has their hands raised at chest level is uncommon. I've seen numerous examples of this very thing, even the ASP youtube channel for example has numerous examples of civilians or plainclothes officers in comparable situations to US civillian CCW holders needing to put rounds on bad guys with raised hands or cross thoracic shots. Frankly this is just spit balling but it wouldn't surprise me if there were more cases of this than justified shoots were a forearm/arm was not more or less within the line of fire. Particularly if intentional headshots are removed.
>For example, in the summer I carry a J-frame with hornady critical defense ammo...
Hell, half the time i carry a .380 in the summer due to comfort and ease. That doesn't change the fact that it's a marginal caliber that without proper ammo selection may very well have insufficient penetration in some if not many circumstances.
>What we really need are better documented citizen involved shootings
Certainly. Lately i've been wondering if the increasing usage of CCW insurance might help these kinds of endeavors in the future. You know those bean counters have got to be making notes of trends to some degree, maybe some day they can be convinced into sharing anonymized data on some factors of civilian shootings. Probably wont be too informative on the ballistics side of things though.
>doesnt even have the velocity right
>i used med weight med energy rounds on purpose to keep things fair to the person i replied to
Oh, and as i alluded to earlier, those rounds have shit performance at those velocities. Compare top in energy to top in energy within reason and with proofs and get back to me on that.
Your history is a bit off. 40 s&w is a necked down 10mm after the 10mm replaced the 9mm. 10mm was too powerful for the little men and women of the FBI so they replaced it with the 40. So not designed from the ground up". Necked down a more powerful, effective cartridge into the 40.
>necked down
This doesn't mean what you think it means
This is what I knew you where capable of and where going to bring up...
>".40 short and WEAK was made cuz the FBI are pussies!!!"
>proceeds to carry 9mm, which the FBI dropped down to AGAIN because .40s&w was too strong for the FBI as well
No shame or self awareness for 9mm fags. I carry 9mm because admittedly I shoot it better due to recoil control, if someone shot .40 comfortably, more power to them. That round undeniably is more powerful than 9mm and that extra barrier pen might be the difference between life and death.
>4u
>Underwood .40 S&W
that's actually equivalent to a good deal of commercial 10mm tho
Why are there shitty .40 troll threads everywhere again? I thought you faggots got over this shit months ago.
Why hello newfriend! May i perhaps introduce you to 9mm vs .45 troll threads? we've been having them since before the internet was even a thing.
I meant shortened and you know it
I know what you meant user, but they're not interchangeable terms
I'm not saying 40 is a subpar round for defence necessarily. I carry a 20 in cold weather and a 23 in warm weather. I would prefer the 10mm year round but I don't feel like frying my ass off. I have no problem with people that carry guns for self protection as long as they do it safely but for anyone thinking that there aren't definite differences between the best self defense loads per caliber is a bit delusional.
Actually math per Underwood’s site is a 135gr at 1400, not 1500. Which gives 588 ft lbs. A comparable light for caliber 125gr .357 from Underwood is 1700fps for 802 ft lbs. that’s a 36% increase in energy. Those are hardly comparable.
Does this have any difference in terminal effect, no not really. Is 13-15 rounds better than 6-8, absolutely. But it’s a straight up lie to say they are close in energy. You can’t cherry pick max loaded Underwood and compare to WWB .357 and say those are the same.
A 10mm probably isn’t worth the recoil tradeoff over a .40 but don’t act like it isn’t a step up. It can launch the same weight bullet 200 fps faster or keep the same velocity and go up to a 165gr.
The recoil of a 10mm can be controlled if you are large enough. I am 6'5" 215 and I dont have a problem now after acclimating myself to the recoil but smaller folks have better success putting more rounds accurately on target with smaller rounds. To think that one is superior across the board is silly. It is based off of raw numbers sure, but if an individual can shoot more accurately and reliably with a smaller size that is a better choice. That's where the whole FBI piece falls into a different category of thought. They are trying to find the best average for their people whereas we can test and find the sweet spot for caliber and pistol size to suit our size and clothing.
lol, arguing about pistol calibers using the reverse logic of rifle calibers. Pretty much everyone with more than half a brain recognizes that capacity always matters more in a fighting rifle than power, with larger caliber rifles filling more niche roles, but somehow when it comes to sidearms bigger caliber is better? .40 sacrifices capacity but doesn't even make up for it in strength, it's a jack of all trades, if you care more about power you may as well just use .45ACP instead of falling for the .40 meme.
>Had the FBI never switched back to 9mm, everyone here would be carrying a .40
No, because capacity > power, and 9mm +p jhp are the gold standard for defensive rounds.
Why do 9mm fanbois literally grasp at any straw that can to discredit .40?
>you might as well carry .45 if you want more power
.40 has as much or more energy and more capacity.
Who gives a fuck? Carry what you want. 9mm, .40s&w, 45acp. They all perform practically the same the difference is negligible.
The only people who argue over service pistol calibers are nogunz trying to pretend they are knowledgeable. Everyone else is outside shooting their guns and not giving a fuck.
>Looks at the top right corner of .jpg
>Suggested: How To Tell If A Girl Likes You - The Definitive Guide
LMFAO nu-male detected.
BTFO
get some real ammo nigga
Holy shit!
>my intermediate caliber is just as good
You can't face the music that you're a hipster. Your jack of all master of none round is shit.
I started with 40sw. Maybe that’s why my favorite is 45 colt. I love big dumb boolets.
There was never a need for anything other than the .45, even a hit to the extremities would knock a man down. That’s were the term knockdown power came from. I mean even a .22 would be better than a 9 or .40, that nasty little round just bounces around inside you because it doesn’t have enough energy to escape.
>break cinderblocks into pieces a worthless metric
>he wants to have to reload after he shoots down a wall to stop an attacker
Do you know how much heavier the average 10mm handgun is compared to .40? They have almost identical felt recoil essentially. It's just you can't cc a 10mm
You think I'm gonna storm a trench with .40? C'mon now.
who cares i joined the 357 sig master race ages ago
I remember being in Vegas one time and met Paul Harrel.
Paul Harrel and his entourage got on our elevator. Me and my buddy were totally speechless. He was chatting people up, being super nice. Two girls asked to take his photo. He said sure and motioned to a guy in his entourage.
Next floor, guy stops the elevator. One of his entourage told us to all get out of the elevator. We all file out and people are looking at each other like, "wtf is going on?" Paul Harrel see everybody's reactions and says, "Sorry people, I just have to have my people document this stuff to protect myself, these days with smartphones, you just never know."
Paul Harrel stood there for probably 20 minutes and took photos with everybody while his entourage filmed and took their own photos. Paul Harrel was super nice, continued to chat and laugh and put everybody at ease. After everybody got their pics, we all got back on the elevator and he got off at his floor and waved and thanked everybody for being a fan.
Just for correction, the guy wasn't rolling with like 15 guys. He literally had two guys with him and I think his PR girl, that's it. No bodyguards, no huge entourage. I've heard in interviews he does this on purpose so he's accessible to his fans. Meeting him was one of the best celebrity interactions I've had. Was so impressed with the guy, he's definitely one guy who gets it and who's totally humbled by his celebrity status.
what is glock 20/29?
I stopped making them because I didn't have a 9 or a 40, and already decided I was going to get a 9 despite the 40 seeming to be way obviously better. Once you already know everything people are going to say it gets kind of boring to do it too many times.
what copypasta is this?
There was some website people were talking about celebrities and some shill posted it about someone, and a big group of people unironically believed it, I was sitting around thinking how retarded people are and found it funny so I saved it and once in a while I copy pasta somebody else's name on it.
I don't know why I guess it's a hobby sometimes I just save random snippets of internet conversations and try to have conversations with people just posting random copy pasta that sort of fits to what we're talking about but doesn't really make any sense just to see how long they'll argue something I think is stupid, sometimes it's just funny to see the reactions even though usually they just get pissed off.
>ballistics are so much more advanced nowadays 9mm is fine
by this logic shouldn't ever round have also increased in effectiveness on the scale? So with "modern ballistics" my .45 should now be even more effective than your 9mm
Alec its me "J" get on fortnite
If you are willing to carry a heavier gun the recoil is really not that bad, but a Smith and Wesson 1006 or a Sig P220 10mm is quite frankly a whole shit load of gun and I can understand why people wouldnt WANT to carry either of them, but it's doable.
>can't cc a 10mm
how do function with that much shit rolling out of your mouth?
Agents for the FBI did it regularly before they switched to 40.
I wish Sig made an SAO model in 357 or I'd already be there.
>High pressure round causes gun to wear quicker and results in "snappier" recoil making follow up shots slower
>Barely provides any additional stopping power over modern 9mm, terminal effects of handgun rounds are minimal unless you step up to a big bore round like 10mm and up
>Lose on penetration especially hard barrier penetration big time compared to 9mm
>Loses on capacity compared to 9mm
>Cost more per round than 9mm
And yes, 40 is way worse at penetration:
youtube.com
youtube.com
youtube.com
Paul kind of has a hate boner fot 9. But be honest, he tested one brand, one weight. Pretending that means shit is like the antithesis of what his videos are trying to say.
I prefer to carry the Underwood version of the Buffalo Bore standard pressure FBI Load, with CD's as reloads
how can you say he has a hate boner for 9mm when he's waxed on about how amazing the Beretta 92 is
Because they’re dumbasses. To take their logic to an extreme would mean to carry a .22mag handgun since it has the most bullets.
>Necked down
I know that you, like 95% of 10mm fags on Jow Forums, are just repeating something you heard but at least try and understand the correct terminology to express your regurgitated opinion thank you very much.
Then why does he have so many 9mm carry guns that he used?
>the .40 is shit because it's not 10mm
>neither is 9mm or .45acp but I still like those
>10mm is so great because muh stoppin powah
>oh I don't load full power 10mm because the recoil is too much and my guns can't handle it
>the fbi went back to 9mm so that proves it's superior
>because the fbi is infallible and all fbi agents are expert shooters so they must know what they're talking about. oh and they did this one study back in the 80s so yeah
That's literally the only 3 arguments against .40sw and are all easily debunked.
>>the fbi went back to 9mm so that proves it's superior
>>because the fbi is infallible and all fbi agents are expert shooters so they must know what they're talking about. oh and they did this one study back in the 80s so yeah
Don't forget, in the same breath they'll mention the FBI are retards that don't know what they're doing because of .40
>Paul kind of has a hate boner fot 9
not really. He doesn't show any real dislike for any caliber. Watching his other which talks about caliber, he ALWAYS concludes that the type of ammo you shoot is most important.
>But be honest, he tested one brand, one weight.
Obviously you didn't watch the video. Paul actually compared 2 different brands of defense (Federal and Hornady) of 9mm and .40 each.
>TFW you've heard enough boomers say this unironially that you cant tell if memes or not
Living in a cuck state. Here in PA if I was involved in a justified shooting, and my stray hit someone else, I can’t be held criminally liable
10mm is best mm.
9mm has its place but I genuinely enjoy .45.
It's a bullet, not a religion
BUT if for some reason I could only have one caliber, it would be 9mm
This is why I carry 124 grain XTP +p. I'll give up a bit of expansion for penetration. It helps they're probably the most reliable expander on the market too and have killed more game animals than any other pistol line of ammunition