Can someone give me some green text on why .40 s&w is obsolete, and why I shouldnt use it?

>Fat virgins on Jow Forums watch Larry Snickers
>Larry Snickers goes on about 9mm and his special Glock he sells
>FBI switches to 9mm from .40 because the FBI dont get into epic firefights everyday and they get 9mm ammo cheap
>Jow Forums are a bunch of wannabes who cite conjecture and jewtube as scholarly sources
>Everybody is a faggot
>.40 is very much a viable caliber with way more practical energy
>Seriously shoot steel with a .40
>You can see and hear what hits harder
>Jow Forums doesnt shoot because they have no guns
>Don't listen to these faggots
>seriously .40 holds 2 rounds at most less than 9mm handguns.
>2 rounds wont make a difference

There is nothing wrong with a .40 but it's too snappy, and does not do either job well. It does not allow for high capacity or concealment like a 9mm, and it does not break pelvises or hearts like a .45ACP. I have a big heavy one and I can shoot it well, but not as well or as much fun as my .45. The ammo isn't cheap either.

get a 4006 with a adjustable rear sight. Police used the hell out of them....in the 90's

The absolute state of .40 fags

Just recently took the Short and Weak out of carry rotation and replaced it with the best milimeter.
>40 is for normies

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Jow Forums dank memebois need to be exterminated, either that or their parents need to show them attention.

It isn't obsolete. Its actually a perfectly fine service caliber, were .357 sig and 9mm to suddenly disappear from human conception over night it would suddenly be the de facto duty round and 9mmfags everywhere would be singing its praises. Plenty of capacity and enough juice to get the job done while being more shootable and cheaper than 10mm or even .45. but here's the low down on why people have beef:
>improved bullet and load designs mean the market is full of 9mm rounds that penetrate sufficiently
>.40 originally designed because people were using 9mm and .38 but penetration was lackluster which occasionally caused dead feds
>if you think carving big holes is really important than you carry a .45
>if you think velocity/energy are important then you carry a .357
>if you think energy and hole size are important or need an autoloader for animal use then you carry a 10mm
>if you don't care about any of these things then 9mm is the logical choice
>attracts STOPPAN POWAH faggots who refuse to carry a 9mm because its a women's round while being unable to handle any actual manly rounds

>best milimeter.
20mm?

because when it all hits the fan everyone will have three rounds in the houses .22, .9 and .45. .40 will be nowhere to be found because it will all be shot

>everybody has a gun in .45 or 9mm
>relatively few people have guns in .40
>most people keep barely any ammo on hand, often buying it on the way to the range for practice
>9mm and .45 disappear first because of considerably higher demand
How about that

>carving big holes
I agree with you but wanted an excuse to post pic

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81mm

you'll easily save the cost difference over the life of the pistol with ammunition. 9mm is cheaper

Go on gunbroker, p226's in 9mm are cheap

>It only has 80-100 more foot pounds than 9mm, it hardly makes a difference in ballistic gel test.
Well by that logic carry a .38, 9mm only has 100-125 more foot pounds on average. Ballistic gel test are not the end all be all for damage testing. Something that you can stick your pinky finger in and push it all the way in is not a realistic bullet testing medium compared to flesh, muscle, and bones as far as I'm concerned. Go kill an animal with both 9mm and .40 and report back on details.

I'm not extremely biased on the subject, but am a little. I've carried both before. I carried 9mm for 2 years and now I'm on .40 for just a couple of months. I can tell .40 hits harder and it damages rabbits more. In your average shooting you aren't going to fire more than 5 rounds more than likely. With all things considered I'll drop 2 rounds out of my mag before giving up some useful energy.

To be fair those are unexpanded diameters. Despite the meme .45 acp JHPs aren't limited to expanding to just .1" wider than 9mm ones, expansion occurs as a function of original diameter in most cases when it comes to handguns. The biggest expanding 9mm on the market im familiar with that penetrates sufficiently are in the .70-.75 range while the .45 can manage sufficient penetration with 1" or sometimes a hair above that. Keep in mind these are average expanded diameters and not maxes. That's a much more significant difference.

Correction, they were averages of the max diameters, i misread. Apologies.

I'm a 9x19 shooter, and I concur with this post

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>cockjuggling thundercunts on Jow Forums say so

People can only be medically incapacitated 2 ways with slug-chuckers (((boolits))).

A brain stem hit - the only instant and 100% guaranteed off switch.

The other way is blood loss. Blood loss via drop in blood pressure is a time-based situation with boolit wounds from handguns, even with a completely perforated heart a human being can physically function up to around 8 seconds - and that's assuming a perfect high thoracic cavity strike - gun fights are very imperfect, you might want to plan on carving out significantly more tissue.

The more tissue you crush and remove the faster blood is lost. More kinetic energy imparts more trauma, generates bigger permanent crush cavities, shatters more bones and drives pieces of those bones further with more energy, lacerating and causing more hemorrhaging.

.40 is wily and recognized as high energy, laws of physics dictate equal and opposite reactions. If your rounds dump more trauma imparting, tissue crushing kinetic energy into the target it's perfectly reasonable to expect more fight from the gun in return.

Typically, for an advanced level shooter (someone at the 60%-75% mark) .40 S&W adds about ~.10-.15 seconds to splits which is proportionally almost exactly how much more energy they dump in to the target than 9x19 (~50% more) - In my opinion it's a side-grade, a fair trade, whatever you want to call it. The numbers actually skew in favor of the .40S&W but as stated I'm also assuming an advanced level of shooting from the operator so there is discrepancy.

In the 90's and early 2000's recording and compiling volumes of anecdotal, individual shootings and their results was a very popular metric. During this time the .40S&W outperformed every other duty caliber in terms of one shot stops.

Yeah, we know now a days that this is not good science, doesn't change the fact that a fuckload of aggressors have been put down right then right there with a single .40S&W

cont.

All this said,40 is a complete side grade, you literally exchange the almost exact proportional amount of speed for almost the exact proportional gain in tissue crushing. I'm not saying it's better than 9x19, I'm just really fucking tired of the echo chamber regurgitated one liners tossed around the web like gospel, all because some bureaucratic bean counters at the FBI needed to justify cutting ammo cost and training.

Also don't hold your breath on the complete flushing of 40.

The ice we are on is so thin is will take one high profile incident of an anecdotal nature where someone survives a strike from the current hotness (A La Miami FBI shootout) and we will go back around the merry-go-round of higher energy, more powerful ballistic reasoning.

>oh hey its this faggot again
Keep your shitty copypasta to yourself, we're shitposting here.

>Miami-Dade shootout
>FBI agent shot Mini-14 dude in the chest but lolonly9mm
>Mini-14 dude reks FBI dudes before finally dying
>FBI dumps 9mm like a bad habit, scrambles to 10mm because stoppin powah
>early 10mm guns not holding up to hard use
>certain agents can't qual because recoil
>make 10mm lite load
>don't need the case capacity
>trim it down to .40S&W
>now every manufacturer can make a .40 version of their 9mm gun to sell to the FBI and other agencies jumping on the bandwagon
>30 years go by
>9mm HP loads got better
>performance gap between .40 and 9mm pretty close
>data starts to show it
>FBI switches back to 9mm, other agencies start to follow

Basically 9mm has better capacity and recoil control and while .40 is more powerful, it doesn't make THAT much of a difference. At least there's no good reason to go out of your way to buy a .40, unless you just can't be comfortable carrying a 9mm (which is more of an issue of operator headspace but whatever).
This too. You can get .40 pistols for nothing nowadays. It's the best reason to buy one.
Also it's good if you're going into armed security because a lot of the federal contracts require it.
If you're buying online the cost difference is pretty close. Retail cost difference is dramatic.

As for recoil it depends on the gun. I would definitely not advise any .40 pocket guns but a compact like a G23 or a full-size like a G22 is fine for most people.
Then buy it and also get a conversion barrel for .357 Sig to shoot something REALLY interesting.

Also some .40 guns have 40 to 9mm conversion barrels. I have one for my G23 and it functions great but isn't as accurate. It's a LoneWolf though, one from a different manufacturer might be better.
This is why I think .40s make sense as full-size service pistols than as pocket guns. The difference in shootability on a big gun between .40 and 9mm isn't very significant so there is a slight benefit.

What 9mm expands .7"+?
Serious question largest I've heard of is .6"ish

Sometimes ranger-Ts get that, Tac-xpds and DPX can get about .7".

luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm

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Thank you, I knew they had the tests on lucky gunner didn't know they had a nice chart with everything.

Hey look its your moms vagina!

more like your anus as you progressed through high school!

>exit hole of 9mm is fraction of an inch
>exit hole of .45 is over an inch
Nope, no bias here.

>Can someone give me some green text on why
No, because it isn't and everyone that says it is doesn't shoot.

Thats just the way .45 rolls!

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My EDC is a USP40c with tooling marks out the ass fight me

Epic get

>ballistic improvments over 9 are so small they may as well not even be considered
It's got a good bit more energy, larger diameter and greater mass

Any lethal shot with 40 would have been a lethal shot with 9. The differences, while present, are small enough to offer no advantage.

>Any lethal shot with 40 would have been a lethal shot with 9
This isn't necessarily true but in most cases, yes

fake and gay

>not .357 sig or 10mm

Like your dad

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Every time I see this. How do the 380,9,38,357 all have radically different entry hole sizes? What's this suppose to be a depiction of being hit?

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Its simply an in between caliber for people who want more than 9mm but 10mm is too much for them. A lot of ammo manufacturers don't properly load their ball ammo, so you end up with 9mm energy for more money per shot aka completely fucking useless. Defensive ammo is usually loaded properly, but now by all manufacturers. I doubt the 30% extra energy would actually make a difference for you in a real gunfight so you should only buy it, if the recoil of 9mm feels faggy for you at the range. But only IF your favorite ammo manufacturer actually loads these properly, check specs first.

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>hurr durr just go 10 millit memer
10mm is fucking expensive, you dumb fucking no gun cucks.

What, being right and confident in shooting a mans caliber is a purely healthy state to be in.

Hk tooling marks look like art work though.

clearly has no clue how physics work
>you can see and hear it hits harder
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Most is an understatement. The cases where it WOULDN'T are so ridiculously small to be a statistical animally.

So, you don't know much about guns, do you?

Nothing wrong with .40S&W. I'd never say it's clearly better than any of the other common service calibers, but the typical arguments against it *are* pretty stupid. Let's examine a few.

>less capacity
Everything is relative. The average gunfight ends in under 3 shots, and .40 caliber handguns can easily be made to have several times more ammo than that. Sure, 9mm handguns tend to hold around 10-15% more cartridges for a given design, but 5.7x28mm handguns have more capacity than that, and .22WMR handguns hold even more. At what point is it enough and how do you know?

>9mm hollow point technology has gotten better
The same can be said for any caliber. Do you actually think that *only* the 9mm hollow points have gotten better over the years? .40 bullets have improved too, making them even better than the 9mm hollow points. Of course, whether that's enough to make a difference is more debatable, but if I only get 3 shots on my attacker, I want them to count.

>muh ballistic tests and penetration
Hollow points in all major calibers are designed to penetrate to the same distance in gelatin, which is mostly a result of bullet makers following FBI standards. That doesn't mean there is no difference in power! Heavier bullets retain more velocity than lighter bullets penetrating hard barriers due to their momentum. That's physics. What it means for self-defense is that your attacker's skeletal structure won't get between your bullet and his vitals as much with .40 as it does with 9mm. Again, whether it's enough to make a difference is more debatable.

>cost
Ammo prices fluctuate and the whiners are hypocritical idiots. In the 2013-2014 era, the same people who complain today about $.20/rnd .40S&W wouldn't have said a thing about $.25/rnd 9mm.

>harder to shoot
All handguns are hard to shoot, and while there *are* people who legitimately have compromised hand/wrist strength, I've never shot a .40S&W pistol that had too much snap for any swinging dick to handle.

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What's the deal with boomers and monster?

Negatives
>More capacity than 45, but less than 9mm
>Has been noted by a number of shooters as being snappy, causing issues when aiming
>While a number of firearms are available in it it will never have the massive selection 9mm has, but it still has a decent selection
>Doesn't compare to the real deal (10mm)
>Doesn't have anywhere near the variety of loadings 9mm has

Positives
>Guns in 40 are cheaper than your Mom on a Tuesday
>40 does hit decently
>A number of guns are able to have simple conversions from 9mm to 40 and vice versa
>Has more capacity than 45

Personally I'm a 9mm guy, but you know what you use is up to you. I wouldn't say anyone handgun cartridge is so amazing by itself, but 9mm has a lot of additional value. You have so much choice, a ton of capacity, huge availability and rounds so cheap you can plink like it's .22lr.

You can assume whatever you want to but a bigger mass with more energy does more tissue damage. Especially important if you don't want to meet the assailant later in court, even if the shot isn't immediately fatal.

>No 88 Magnum
The absolute state of caliberlets

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So keep shooting until the threat is neutralized

>why did you shoot the assailant 8 times?
>he was still moving and making threatening gestures

Unless theres footage otherwise, or they can prove the first shot (as opposed to the 5th or 6th) was immediatley fatal, they can do precisely fuck all to you in court for magdumping

It tastes like sugar pixie cum and caffeine. It's also the second cheapest energy drink next to Four Loko, which sounds Mexican and probably causes prostate cancer.

Stop giving people advice. Please. Don't shoot someone who isn't a threat.

It's funny how 9 vs 45 threads had some points to either favor, now 9 vs 40 threads are 9fags sticking their fingers in their eyes and going nananananananana two extra bullets

And telling people to mag dump in case 9mm doesn't kill the guy right away to avoid going to court

Anything will die if you shoot it enough regardless of caliber.

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hollowpoint technology enhances those calibers the most that are fast and tend to overpenetrate. 9mm more than .40 and .40 more than .45

>rectal ballistics
>rectal

Ummmmm

Where the fuck did you get that idea?
I explicitly say keep shooting until the threat is neutralized.
If theyre not a threat, dont pull trigger.
If they are still a threat, keep pulling trigger until they arent

Cant tell if youre mis interperting my point or being willingly ignorant

Prolly paper, the small hole with larger caliber is because of the speed of the bullet. .45 is slow and fat, bigger hole.

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You're retarded. First of all, overpenetration is a function of bullet type. Any FMJ or non-deforming bullet will overpenetrate. And do you think .40S&W bullet velocity is lower than 9mm? Fucking idiot. Not to mention that you're wrong fundamentally in your claim. The hollow point's function is to transfer more of the bullet's energy to the target. Calibers with more energy benefit more from the design than low energy calibers like 9mm.

are you trying to "win the argument" by saying so many retarded things in one post that i dont even want to reply anymore?

What does that even mean?

So i figured that if im gonna make a post at all, i dont want to leave it at just calling you dumb so here you go:

>overpenetration is a function of bullet type
im talking assuming the same type of bullet, obviously

>Any FMJ or non-deforming bullet will overpenetrate
Not really but thats beside the point. Granted, 9mm .40 and .45 fmjs will

>And do you think .40S&W bullet velocity is lower than 9mm?
With most loads, yes. With average loads, yes. With the hottest loads yes. Assuming the same bullet wheight is not realistic.

>Not to mention that you're wrong fundamentally in your claim
>Calibers with more energy benefit more from the design than low energy calibers like 9mm
No.

dude its fake
have you even looked at the image?

its not obsolete. its a legitimate calibre and does the job it was made for. its just not as cheap as 9 and the difference is really rather small. watch the paul harrel vid on it.

i would argue that it depends what type of 9 ammo youre using vs what type of 40 youre using. any 9mm hornady critical duty is at least as powerful as 40. its more of a cost vs effectiveness thing and the biggest difference here is the trade in surplus pistols vs 9mm pistols weighed against the difference in ammo cost.

if your pistol falls out of your pants during a drunk backflip .40 is 5x more likely to go off when you snatch your pistol up by the trigger

If you're just going to sit there and lie, then I'm not even going to bother with you.

Gel isn't meant to be a direct simulation of human flesh. X inches of penetration in gel is not supposed to = X penetration in flesh. Flesh is known to be more dense.

They use gel because it can be mixed up in a repeatable exact density so tests done all over the world can be compared to each other directly.

I get that, but saying 9 penetrates deeper in gel doesn't mean jack. Does it penetrate as deep when it hits muscle then has to break a bone on the way? .40 out performs 9 on real world targets. It's a paper vs real world thing and basing 9mm penetration vs .40 on paper doesn't work in the real world is what I'm getting at.

No it not I took Those gun shots.

Side note: Mini-14 robber actually took 12 hits to take him out of the fight. 12. Whereas his rifle fire took multiple agents out, one with a forearm shot, and killed two others with one hit.
His accomplice took 6, but an early HS took him out of fight before dying.
Neither of the robbers were using drugs.

I wouldn't trust 9mm

yall are overpaying. I pay 21cpr at most.

Tyrone is gonna laugh at your 25acp while he rapes your wife

>implying 9mm loads haven't changed one bit since then
Why do all .40SlimWeenie fags always fail to understand that 9mm cup & ball from over 3 decades ago & modern 9mm hollow points are worlds apart in performance?

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Sugar free red bull tastes like ass and is too expensive

Sugar free rockstar tastes like ass

Xyence is alright but not as tasty as

White monster, the best tasting and most cost effective sugar free energy drink.

I'm 28 and drink that shit sometimes, fite me irl

Lol bro four loko is not really an energy drink

The last time I got 9x19 I paid $0.15/round and that's after shipping. You're still overpaying for ammo.

>shouldn't use it
Its a free country.

Oh, the white one is sugar free? That makes sense. Boomers are the only people who think that drinking stupid shit like diet soda and caffeine-free coffee makes any kind of sense.

>believing .40 sw is obsolete
is that what james yeager told you to believe?

The best thing about .40 is there isn't much difference between the stuff you use for defense, and the stuff you practice with.

9mm on the otherhand, you either get some gucci ammo that is way different than what you practice with, or you get more expensive practice ammo.

Any defense ammo in 9mm that mimics the performance of the cheaper practice ammo is usually shit.

>With most loads, yes. With average loads, yes. With the hottest loads yes. Assuming the same bullet wheight is not realistic
Tbh pretty sure you're just wrong here. If you get bullet grains as close as possible the .40 wins.
>135gr vs 115
pretty much a tie with fastest on the market loads(1400 for both)
>135 vs 124
135 wins with stereotypical loads and when comparing fastest on the market(1400 vs 1300fps)
>147 vs 155
again .40 wins (1175 vs 1300)
>147 vs 165
.40 wins by a insignificant amount(25fps)
>147 vs 180
9mm wins this one by 75fps but it's clearly skewed in 9mms favor by quite a bit.
Proper gel test results have in fact been correlated rather closely with real life autopsy results in soft tissues. that being said it is true that the gel results are not a perfect representation of every autopsy result. Some tissues provide more resistance and others provide less resistance which can effect penetration depths by quite a bit. this is one of the reasons that the 12" minimum is a good idea. For instance in the study i mentioned(wolberg) a bullet that very regularly got 13" of penetration in gelatin in fact showed a much larger range of penetration depths(10-17") in human tissue depending on the tissues traversed in a given shot.
I wouldn't trust 1980s bullet tech out of a 9mm either.
Very true, and often overlooked.

Johnny Dangerously
Also, 9mm is better for many reasons. 40 is good too. And when the gun scares come, 40 can usually be found while 9mm is usually the first to sell out, in terms of ammo and magazines. So just stockpile eitherway.