Who was in the wrong?
Motorcycle couriers riding at tbe speed of light.
Motorboats carrying silkworm missiles.
I don't think people give Riper enough credit for his work in near FTL propulsion and dimensional engineering. He was able to move motorcycle couriers at the speed of light and could fit cruise missiles and fire control systems into boats whose internal volume was significantly smaller than that of the weapon systems.
Navy shills detected.
personally I'd have underground tunnels for communication, and armored whales with nukes in their stomachs radio mind controlled to suicide bomb the carrier groups.
a C3 (command and control, communications) exercise that tried to get played off as a shooting "Who would win?" wargame.
>near FTL propulsion and dimensional engineering
We better call NASA, bro.
Van Riper is up there with Sprey in terms of spreading bullshit to laymen(And congressmen, unfortunately)
>Who was in the wrong?
The guy who was so buttblasted he didn't get to be Commandant that he decided to shit up a multi-million dollar exercise.
>Motorcycle couriers riding at tbe speed of light.
>Motorboats carrying silkworm missiles.
Did he break any rules and if he did why was he allowed?
If that's true why was he allowed to do this? War games don't just magically break when someone does something they're not expected to do. He would have to go out there and explain to someone that he wanted motorcycle couriers, and then someone would have to work out how to simulate it. The computerized portions will simply not do a task that is not forseen, while a human would not just say "yeah, you now have uninterceptable instant communications".
The whole thing was just broken and poorly executed. That's why the results were scrapped at the end.
He did not break any rules. He simply played lawyer and did shit that was technically permitted but still impossible in reality.
>things that don't fit within the established parameters of modern doctrine are impossible to execute amid said doctrine
t. Pentagon pencil pusher
>He simply played lawyer and did shit that was technically permitted but still impossible in reality.
He must had been very persuasive to persuade the umpire to script in lightspeed motorcycles and hammerspace boats. One does not simply rules lawyer their way into this.
>He simply played lawyer
>>> citation needed
>losing chess game
>knock board over and declare himself the winner, then walk away
>the rules don't specifically say you can't knock over the board and walk away so that means it's okay.
>one does not simply rules lawyer their way into this
Well that's what Riper did. He stated what he was doing and apparently nobody looked into the logistics of his "tactics" until after it became apparent that he was doing impossible shit.
I suppose that whoever was in charge of refereeing the sim was foolish enough to think that an Lt. General would play properly instead of attempting to hoodwink them.
>rules don't describe limitations of secure comms, blame the player
Where is everyone getting this faster than light and impossible dimensions information from? It's not on the wikipedia article OP posted.
>16 years later and this wargame is still triggering navy fags
From accounts of the people who were there instead of wikipedia.
Riper was a fuckwit gaming the rules.
>be MIC shill
>justify spending billions on total waste of time 'exercise'
>be booty blasted when jilted commander makes your boondoggle obvious
Everybody was. The Navy set this up to jerk themselves off over how awesome they were. Ripper was a smug little bastard playing the rules to the inch. I wouldn't bet anybody learned anything (least of all the Navy) which was the whole point.
>After the war game was restarted, its participants were forced to follow a script drafted to ensure a Blue Force victory. Among other rules imposed by this script, Red Force was ordered to turn on their anti-aircraft radar in order for them to be destroyed, and was not allowed to shoot down any of the aircraft bringing Blue Force troops ashore.
>going beyond the scope of what the simulation is intended to achieve
>why doesn't mario party let me fuck hookers? Shit game, nintendo btfo
>Among other rules imposed by this script, Red Force was ordered to turn on their anti-aircraft radar in order for them to be destroyed, and was not allowed to shoot down any of the aircraft bringing Blue Force troops ashore.
Both
Simulations with arbitrary restrictions are retarded, but van ripper is a "that one kid" tier faggot who threw a hissy fit
That's not how it works. In war games the leadership of the OPFOR and BLUFOR cannot even touch the "chessboard", only talk to the people moving the pieces.
I just said here
that the game was broken from the start. Van Riper did indeed exploit this.
Google it.
>call to prayer from a mosque somehow signals suicide attackers out at sea and in the air
>tiny high speed civilian boats carrying massive silkworm missiles
>gets told off
>mindlessly repeats wiki copypasta
And that's why I post "ur wrong" instead of writing detailed explanations of how you're incorrect and how the situation actually worked.
>People who were there
Let's see some citations then
>the game was broken from the start
Explain in some detail beyond making vague assertions to hide your lack of knowledge.
the wiki has sources listed for it, you don't
Why do you want me to reiterate all the shit that has already been said? Riper was initially allowed to do impossible shit (which has been outlined multiple times), got told off, and then whined about it.
>impossible shit
like deciding when to reveal his units positions? take your unsourced bullshit elsewhere
I just provided you with a link and some examples. Believe whatever you want.
>>call to prayer from a mosque somehow signals suicide attackers out at sea and in the air
I would like to note that the calls to prayer always happen at the same set times so this isn't exactly as impossible as it sounds.
>Marine Corp Brainlet out of containment area.
If we need someone to get their legs and balls blown off by an IED, we'll call you. Don't contaminate any discussion of actual main-force war at sea with your down-syndrome though, thanks.
You may have posted your link in another thread or something because I only see 2 links in this thread and neither fit the description
Certain actions by Riper seem like they would work, like dumping enough shore launched cruise missiles on the CV battlegroup to overwhelm CIWS.
Other things seem like they logistically would not work, like some other people have said. You could conceivably mount a silkworm missile on a good size fishing trawler, or maybe convert a container ship into a massed battery of anti-ship missiles for a surprise attack, but the signal from the targeting radar should have been a massive giveaway to the Blue forces.
Similarly, I don't know how a suicide attack in open water would work. Anything small enough to be sunk by a small craft carrying an explosive payload is fast enough to outrun and outgun that small craft.
Got part-time duty at the Sergeant Major's Academy after I was wounded, we were working with the Raytheon guys to conduct computer simulations against prospective SGMs, and units all over the world (a lot of G-staff).
My job was basically to troll people significantly higher in rank than myself, it was a ton of fun. Graphically it was nothing impressive (little better than BFT), but the options and weapon systems you could employ in the simulation were great.
Sometimes there was a script, mostly in exercises with G-Staff, and units OCONUS. Playing against the prospective SGMs, we had a lot more freedom to be creative.
Did a lot of complex ambushes that kept the pressure going, and would also just saturate patrols with batteries of Katyushas.
Had a knack for it, and the Raytheon guys said they'd put in a recommendation for me for the civilian side if I applied. Would have been starting out at six-figure salary at the age of 20, but I would have had to stay in El Paso.
FT. Bliss and El Paso suck, but kind of regret not going after the job.
Everyday it was basically doing what LTG. Riper did, fun job. Almost got to go against my previous 1SG when he came to the academy, but I was medically retired before we had the opportunity.
>but the signal from the targeting radar should have been a massive giveaway to the Blue forces.
But according to source the red didn't get to decide when to turn it on
holy shit this sounds like a dream job
That was air defense radar for guiding SAMs.
I'm talking about the guidance radar for an anti-ship missile. You can't get close enough to launch a surprise attack with a disguised ship if you're broadcasting a targeting radar. It would have alerted Blue force that something was wrong about that fast boat/fishing trawler/container ship etc.
Here's a link to the final report
>I don't know how a suicide attack in open water would work.
small fishing boats not giving a fuck about security zones, lots of places to hide explosives, complacent lookouts
it's happened more than once
>but the signal from the targeting radar should have been a massive giveaway to the Blue forces.
if radars are only activated long enough to lock onto a large vessel going 20 knots, it can be reasonably inferred that high speed missiles can be fired at almost LOS and still hit a target without a perfect lock
>call to prayer from a mosque somehow signals suicide attackers out at sea and in the air
>tiny high speed civilian boats carrying massive silkworm missiles
>Things that Iran pretty much can do
Dude, they do have a serial models of ASM systems that are build to look like civilian trucks.
unless they had counter radar tracking or were specifically looking for certain bands of targeting radar, they may have been dark to avoid detection, which means they would be blind
>MISSSSIIILES
I would fucking kill to get your job. Where was your duty station priot to this user?
>THE MISSILE KNOWS WHERE IT IS
out of curiosity, will point-defenses on US ships engage unguided rockets going in their general direction even if they're not going to impact with any assets?
since if they do then saturating the air with cheap shit in organized launch with your ship killers is very cost-effective
Those are short range rockets, not real AShMs. Do you even know how large a Silkworm is?
>small fishing boats not giving a fuck about security zones
Keep in mind the suicide boat attack supposed happened the day after Blue force lost a CVN and 7 other ships. Gunners would have lit up anything that came close. The ships would probably still have been at GQ.
>if radars are only activated long enough to lock onto a large vessel
Still enough warning to engage the missile boat, and the first time that happened would be a warning for the whole remainder of the battlegroup.
>unless they had counter radar tracking or were specifically looking for certain bands of targeting radar...
Which modern naval vessels have and use, all the time.
Riper got passed over for O-10. He was so butthurt he did these outlandish strategies to fuck over a multimillion dollar war game to stick it to his superiors.
>fuck over a multimillion dollar war game to stick it to his superiors
he was based
Most CIWS systems are programmed only to attack projectiles if there's some certainty they will hit what they're supposed to be protecting. The reason why Israel's Iron Dome system remains cost effective is because it can determine whether Palestinian rockets are a potential threat to populated areas and intercept them without having to worry about the ones they know will miss.
Plus, the downfall with most rockets is that they're either too inaccurate to hit anything smaller than a grid square accurately, or are too short ranged to effectively use against a technically superior opponent.
>BECAUSE IT KNOWS WHERE IT ISN'T
en.wikipedia.org
Praying Mantis proved that silkworms and small attack boats in reality couldn't even come close to threatening a carrier group in an actual combat situation.
From the report:
>Live Airborne Drop. To ensure the live airborne operation could proceed, the JTF commander required that the battlefield be prepared properly. This required elimination of OPFOR air defense assets along an air corridor and in the vicinity of the objective. The OPFOR was directed by the JECG to position its air defense assets in the area such that they could be destroyed by Blue. Those that were not destroyed were then directed not to engage Blue assets passing through their area. Had this live event not occurred so early in the scenario these actions may not have been required.
>Live Ship to Objective Maneuver (STOM). During the July 30 STOM attack, Blue had
not properly prepared the simulated battlefield before emplacing troops. This resulted in the
attacking force being fixed by OPFOR ground elements and subsequently attrited to a combat ineffective state. OPFOR was directed by the JECG to cease its attacks and allow the Blue element to be extracted. The involved Blue forces were then regenerated for future use to support experimental objectives.
>As the exercise progressed, the OPFOR free-play was eventually constrained to the point
where the end state was scripted. This scripting ensured a Blue operational victory and established conditions in the exercise for transition operations.
It was Bliss, 4th BCT 1st Cav at the time (before they became 1st AD). Had been at Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany for a month in ICU before going back to Bliss for additional rehab.
Earlier I was doing part time duty in the mailroom at local military hospital, had treatment nearly everyday there anyways so it'd made some sense. It was suicidally boring, and I just chose to stop showing up. Afterwards they reassigned me to SGM's Academy between treatment.
Should have stuck with it, but El Paso is such a shithole. Look back and realize that if I got the job and stayed for a few years, I'd likely had been able to rotate to support Raytheon's role elsewhere at other and better duty stations.
according to wikipedia, no, which means incendiary bats and attack dolphins may still have a use in naval warfare
>OPFOR actions must be realistic to the scenario in terms of its culture, doctrine, and capabilities. Maintaining realism during the experiment is essential to ensuring the OPFOR acts as a credible adversary. The Threat Impacts Analysis team evaluated each OPFOR action for realism. OPFOR actions were generally viewed as being realistic for the scenario.
Lol "counter radar tracking"? ES is passive. You can be at EMCON-OMG and ES will still detect a surface search radar. ES is up constantly, even when you aren't in GQ or straits transit or anything. And ES gives you a fix on the firer much faster than his own trons give him a fix on you.
yeah, but shooting line of sight or wire guided, or heat seeking means no radar lock, which means only visual confirmation will work, which means it is up to crew to identify the threat and engage countermeasures
Do you think there are any 'line of sight' (prop: it's called EO) or wire-guided ASCMs that can fire completely passively? You are not well informed.
Line of sight works both ways. If you can see the ship, the ship can see you too, and unlike on the ground, open water doesn't usually have a lot of terrain to cover your approach.
But the specific missiles used in the scenario were radar guided. That's the point we're making. The ship has a radar to lock the target, and the missile gets launched. It flies in the general direction of the target and its internals keep it on course until it gets close, then a nose mounted radar on the missile activates and guides it in to the target.
The point is that every navy ship in the area is going to see that targeting radar light up and go "Hmmmm, wonder why that fishing trawler is painting us..." and blow the motherfucker out of the water.
>implying they cant be made into LOS dumb missiles, an EO imply it uses electro-optics, not literal spotters
>plz navy no shoot, am using fancy fish finder
>okeey mr. fisheyman
>$0.01 has been deposited into your account for crayons and glue
>If you can see the ship, the ship can see you too
use drones to scouting duh
And the Navy wouldn't be shooting down unknown drones flying over their ships because...?
Then the drone served its purpose and revealed the enemy location
Okay, so you want to fire a fucking Silkworm or Styx missile, just ballistically? Like a rocket? Off a motor-boat? And you expect to actually hit anything?
You realize the Navy has EO. And airplanes. And ISAR. So they are going to see your little autism canoe long before you are able to see them, if you are using the Mk1 Mod 0 human eyeball to launch a fucking congreve rocket at a CVN.
Damn. I actually impressed about how retarded your suggestion is.
the size of your dick right?
>Due to its small size and ease of culture, the silkworm has become a model organism in the study of lepidopteran and arthropod biology.
>Be me
>Be captain of USS Nigger Digger
>Be on the bridge, drinking coffee
>Fuck, navy coffee is so shitty
>Bet one of those fucking CS's pissed in it again
>Get call from CIC
>"Sir, we're being painted by a targeting radar coming from a fishing trawler."
>CleverGirl.jpeg
>"Sir they say it's a fish finder. I think. I don't speak sand people"
>Hmmmm
>Yesterday they sank like half of the battegroup with cruise missiles.
>Better not risk it.
>Order evasive maneuvers
>All Ahead Fuck You
>Launch Harpoon missile
>They launch Silkworm
>Sand people cannot into missiles, it misses
>Ours doesn't
>USS Nigger Digger gets Combat E for Excellence
>implying if done in sufficient number that level of autism would not achieve at least 01 critical hit, making an autism canoe the weapon of choice for the next 100 years of naval battle
>Your navy semen ration will be delivered tomorrow
Care to share how you got injured?
And also let the Navy know they should be on alert for a possible attack, ruining any sort of element of surprise.
saturation of POTENTIAL attacks induces complacency user, FBI gets too many anonymous tips, meaning they can only respond to so many, aka little boy who cried wolf.
>medical retired
IED, like most guys these days. Route clearance detail, do it enough it will happen. Doing a lot better these days.
That's what my DD-214 says. They gave me the option to reclass to a non-combat MOS, but I rejected it. Another choice I regret.
Have you posted this before? I swear I've read this exact same thing.
>He did these outlandish strategies to fuck over a multimillion dollar war game to stick it to his superiors.
Like a fucking boss
It is very likely, have found these discussion go better if you verify yourself upfront. My Purple Heart is mounted on the wall of my parent's wall at their home, they are more proud of it than I am. Only posts this proof when I'm back visiting them.
Likely did the same on /his/ and /tv/, I mostly only post about my experiences overseas when in a drunken blackout (now).
No but see your wrong blufor was supposed to win so if it doesnt then its because cheating and obviously it would be breaking physics for us to lose also russian hacking.
In nearly every milsim I have ever seen, Blue-for get their asses kicked.
That is by design, you get raped every time because it is supposed to be a learning experience (I.E., training). You learn fuck-all if the sim favors the doctrine/SOP practiced everytime, real life is never so kind.
Millennium Challenge followed that pattern, and LTG Riper was right to take the approach he did.
the scenarios are supposed to be designed so that blufor has a chance. redfor may troll the blufor and make them loose (usually with underhanded tactics)
Saturation of potential attacks would mean that competent command would take action to reduce the risk.
However, that may be asking a bit too much due to the recent string of USN incidents involving slow moving cargo ships.
I think if it were the first incident of that type of attack to happen, your proposition would have merit. The USN is very slow to adopt new policy and slower still to execute upon that policy unless it involves same sex marriage ceremonies during patrol cruises. But then again, the USN has always been a bit "that way" and is simply formalizing a procedure that has always existed.
IIRC the cole was an eye opener that "holy shit, these security zone things were there for a reason" but it happened because seeing small boats transiting around them and disregarding it anyway for them to actually enforce
Exactly. Competent command would have enforced exclusion zones or at least moved away from the potential threats.
It's one thing to have a policy, yet another to actually adhere to said policy. This is by definition an organizational failure.
>congress orders boats to an area
>flag officers negotiate ports to keep boats and ROE
>CO does not want to create an international incident by gunning down every boat that goes by it in port, especially if locals disregard it
>terrorists take advantage of watch standers thinking all "locals" look alike
the problem starts at the top, the CO should have the balls to tell the flag that the port is not safe when hes got hundreds of canoes driving by all day and night
As I said before, that is bullshit according to my own experience. There re no smiley face grades or sticker stars on your face to say good job. Every AAR was about how we fucked up, and getting the discussion going on how to do better.
I was Army, not Navy. Won't try to represent your world since I have no informed idea.
>t.pussy
idk about how the games are supposed to work, but from a casual observer standpoint, it sounds like they are scripted when it is there to either test an unrelated system like "can we use smoke signals at one another in a general battle scenario" or where the battle is less important than the ability of the blue forces to communicate/act in a certain way, and the thing being tested is not the battle capability, but the ability of blue forces to respond to a set of pre determined red forces moves
>Alright, we're going to do a multinational exercise with some of our allies
>The Saudis don't have a blue water capable navy but have agreed to host the event so we're going to do it in their waters
>unfortunately it's a heavily civilian trafficked area, so in order to prevent any accidents, we're going to try and stay away from shipping lanes which means we're going to bunch up in a few areas
>this is fine, the goal of the exercise is to simulate command, control, communications and support between a sea force and an expeditionary landing force
>On the plus side, this gives us more time to develop the software for this and focus on those aspects we're interested in, does that sound good Riper?
>lol fug off imma attack ur ships
>That's ridiculous, we're not going to shut down one of the busiest shipping lanes on the planet just to do surface warfare exercises we know the answer to
>lol imma attack
>The software doesn't isn't even configured for simulating ship defenses or surface to surface munitions
>fug off imma attack and then go to war is boring and cry about it for the next two decades
An
>I don't know
would had sufficed.
As had already been stated, wargames aren't set up to allow Riper to do what he did.. You have no idea what you are talking about and all you are doing is repeating yourself about what happened with no sources and no explanation of how Riper could possibly walk over to the White Cell, boot everybody out of the room and run the simulation by himself.
t. E-2 culinary specialist