"NIJ IV is the highest you can go" Body Armor Thread #4

Approved plate vendor list 2.0:
Velocity Systems
Chase Tactical
Hesco
Protech
MARS / SBA (Only for LIBA)
Ceradyne
BAE
DKX
Highcom
Protective Products
RBR
Leading Technologies

what's up my man, let's keep this thread on the 1st page

I've been talking with Juraj from Veplas group (the guys who manufacture ballistic visors for MSA, etc) and I have a list of prices for the largest, the VB1. They're actually pretty goddamn cheap

I've also got ahold of another Velocity carrier, holding out for some soft armor for it

How expensive might they be? There's always a nice benefit to body armor that goes beyond your chest. After all, if one were to inspect NIJ 0101.06 at section 7.6.1, you will find that two inches of space from the edge need not be ballistic. In other words, a 10x12" plate certified under NIJ 0101.06 only needs to provide a ballistic face of 6x8" dimensions. Any coverage you can get beyond 6x8" can seriously help in any situation. To get people up to speed on this issue, let it be known that the primary reason for Chase Tactical being on the above list is because they sell DEA-rated plates, which goes beyond the lousy requirements of NIJ.

There's also a conspiracy theory gaining traction that civilian-accessible body armor peaked around 2006 and has since regressed technologically. I'm quite a fan of the theory, and if you want proof look to CeraFlex, LIBA, and the onslaught of Boron Carbide plates around 2003-2005. "NIJ Level V" was once a unofficial rating no different than NIJ Level IV+ for good reason. By the way, does anyone have one of the old school NIJ Level V plates? I know they exist.

A VB1 visor with both scratch and fog protection is 129 EUR, so around $150. Regarding ballistic protection, since they are based in Europe and sell to GSG9 and GIGN they also have to abide by euro standards, which by and large are better than NIJ

pic related

Attached: veplas.png (731x521, 34K)

These are the sizes/shapes they offer
You can also order custom shapes if none listed suit you

Attached: ballistic-visor02.jpg (900x596, 48K)

the jews stole LIBA

Indeed, the SK Standard in use in Germany is much better than the NIJ Standard when it comes to backface deformation. SK requires less than 25mm while NIJ lets you get away with anything less than 44mm. As long as the materials in play remain constant, less BFD is always better. A lot of people believe 44mm is too high and they thus lean towards GOST 50774-95 plates, which demand a maximum of 16mm BFD, which I believe is one of the tightest requirements in the world. Steel plates typically have extremely low BFD, but with their flaws they just cannot be considered without a trauma pad backing them up. There's also a second FBI Internal standard with an 11mm BFD requirement but it's very difficult to find.

Also do note that visor is tested against Level IIIA on NIJ 0108.01, not Level IIIA on NIJ 0101.06. If it were following NIJ 0101.06, the visor would have to withstand no less than six shots per threat (obviously separate testing samples) while the visor here is tested to only one.

Holy shit, so that's a clear faceplate that'll stop handgun rounds easily. For 150$.

I'm glad I found this thread. There is too much bullshit about armor on Jow Forums, especially fucking retarded shit like "I'd rather wear no helmet because if I get shot in one I'd be concussed retarded anyway" I see all the time

Aye. I've done enough reading on elite sites like Lightfighter to tell you it was in fact MARS that created LIBA. Mofet Etzion has claimed to hold the true patent in the past but they have not created CeraFlex. CeraFlex and LIBA were once companion products, the ying-and-the-yang. The fact that MARS owned both indicates that they themselves are the only ones out of the LIBA Three (Swedish Body Armor, MARS, and Mofet Etzion) that actually has the ability to develop new armor technologies.

yep, here's the site they can be got from
Juraj, the salesman, is a cool guy. Apparently VEPLAS is a wholesaler for a few armor companies. You can see GIGN and GSG9 units running around with their visors on.

pic related is pricing. Keep in mind that this is for the very largest visor that they offer, so it is likely cheaper for the rest

Attached: visorspricing.png (332x227, 4K)

found another picture demonstrating clearness
oh yeah, they make frag visors (6mm poly) and riot visors (4mm poly) too

Attached: visors2.jpg (665x441, 20K)

So if from what seeing in this thread, ARfivehundo's are shit plates are they still useful as like say umm training plates.or are they not even that heavy: say like one in front, behind and two curved plates at the side how much would that be weight wise

Depends on cut of plate

OP Here. I'm temporarily going back to tripfagging.
These threads have a clear role in Jow Forums's body armor discussion as the patrician's choice. While we're certainly not elitist - we're happy to help anyone new to the industry, we pride ourselves on actual knowledge and understanding of body armor and its mechanics, levels, and context. I've got over a year and a half of research for my Arma III mod, AAPM, that seeks to provide the most realistic body armor experience possible - which I believe permits me to say the above.

It also depends on the size of the plate. 11x14" or XL steel plates are going to weigh a load. Regardless, steel plates are generally less expensive than ceramics and are indeed lighter. However, they're a lot thinner (3/8" typically, depends on anti-spall liner) than a ceramic (1/2" to 1.3"), meaning if you're practicing with weapons the depth of a ceramic plate may not be represented with the steel plate.

Whups, I mean heavier, not lighter. I typed too quickly.

Steel plates, for better or for worse, will 9/10 times be cheaper than ceramic. MIL-DTL-46100E steel, the stuff you SHOULD get over AR500, comes in very large sheets that you can cut or have cut into any shape you want.

Let us not forget that there are also MIL-DTL-46100 plates sold by Chase Tactical and other vendors already cut and lined like an ordinary steel plate under the brand name "AR1000". They provide protection from the steel-killing M193 as well as M855 and often even 7.62x39mm Mild Steel Core and 7.62x39mm BZ API. They're probably some of the civilian-accessible steel out there.

chasetactical.com/product/chase-tactical-ar1000-level-iii-stand-alone-rifle-plate-nij-0101-06-certified-dea-compliant-rhino-extreme-coating/

I feel as if LIBA would be cheaper to make than even regular ceramics. The alumina bearings can be mass produced on a large scale, and adding them to the UHMWPE would be a cinch.

*best civilian accessible steel out there.

>not cutting your own
>not making custom extremity armor

will ceramic plates stop m2ap loading into a lapua magnum at max load?

OP Here. I'm un-tripfagging.

One of the unsung advantages of LIBA is that plates with LIBA technology are easily repaired by replacing the shot Alumina bearings with new ones that were once sold by the pack. When we're down to the bread-and-butter concepts like multi-hit-capacity, LIBA and CeraFlex truly do make DragonSkin (if it can still be taken seriously) look like a joke. It's a shame Mofet Etzion had to take it.

what about the UHMWPE matrix?

>I'm talking options that most people on Jow Forums will actually consider.

Probably not. There's no known standard that covers that threat. Perhaps a very strong Level III/IV Standalone or a CeraFlex tungsten-rated plate or the Model 4520 ICW NIJ IIIA can, but I would not bet any money (and definitely not my life) on that.

The UHMWPE only provides Level III protection but the plate is set up in a way due to the matrix design that if the UHMWPE is damaged and/or stops a round in a specific area damage elsewhere will be very limited. While there is no known practical method to repair the UHMWPE, the ceramic bearings that do provide the overwhelming majority of the plate's protection can be replaced - this is nonetheless a great upgrade from normal monolithic ceramic plates.

See picture provided to see what I mean about LIBA's multi-hit capacity.

Attached: sq6t7p.jpg (700x689, 92K)

That's insane. I'm assuming Mofet Etzion grabbed the patent for this and isn't selling this to civilians/anyone not IDF, right?

What about chain mail?

Adding to this, found their patent for LIBA.
patents.justia.com/patent/6112635
US patent term is 20 years, so in 2 years we might see this take off everywhere else.

That's correct. There was a split in Mofet Etzion around 2005-ish that resulted in Mofet Etzion grabbing the patent and holding it back so that nobody else can use it.

According to Lightfighter, the plate in the picture was used in the Samaria Region (Palestine, likely by IDF) in 2002 against terrorists and withstood 15 impacts with only very minor bruises on the wearer's chest. He remained perfectly combat effective. Notice where the shots hit and the unique "Assault Cut" of the plate. LIBA remains extremely strong even on the edges of the plate where nearly all monolithic ceramic plates that were not FBI/DEA rated would fail. LIBA is not heavy either, a 10x12" is only 6.5lb and it provides Level III/IV + SS109 protection.

Here's the lightfighter thread:
lightfighter.net/topic/level-iii-not-iiia?reply=2843236911571680#2843236911571680

Actually, holy shit, patents expire 20 years after their first filing. This one was first filed in March 1998, it's expired!

Great find! We'll see what happens in 2020.

IT'S EXPIRED
patents.google.com/patent/US6112635A/en

Really makes you wonder why nobody else is grabbing it then. The technology is likely just forbidden from civilian sales akin to the status of civilian-accessible tungsten-rated plates... or perhaps we'll see something happen very soon.

Get the AWS OCPC and stuff it with whatever plate simulator you can get until you get plates. This allows you to train into the new rig but PCs sag when empty.

It just expired March this year. It's entirely possible the right people don't know about it yet. It'll be fucking amazing if it is.

How are civilian tungsten-rated plates legally restricted?

It's not FORBIDDEN per se, afaik. They just don't want to sell their stuff to civilians because government contracts keep them afloat and the government doesn't want civilians having this stuff. Kind of like how ALS stopped selling smoke grenades to civilians because "muh ATF said so".

They're not legally restricted per se. They are seemingly restricted through sensitive contained technology and the body armor industry's interest. If you want proof, look to the above Model 4520. ATT, the vendor, has specifically said that they will not sell plates like that to civilians. Furthermore, the Model 4520 is compliant with the XSAPI Standard, which indicates it can stop whatever highly-secretive round the US Military's fancy new third-generation XSAPI can stop. It's an open secret that the round in question is 7.62x54R 7N37, a russian VK8 Alloy tungsten core "Super Penetrator" that has seen limited use in Ukraine. The timing is too perfect and 7N37 otherwise represents too much of a strategic threat for the XSAPI to NOT be designed against it. Furthermore, there was a big scare around the time of DragonSkin being discredited regarding civilian-accessible "Level V" armor, and so most of the vendors that offer plates beyond Level IV++ have no interest in dealing to civilians. You'll notice a lot of companies like KDH, DKX, and many more won't deal to civilians. This self-imposed, almost cabal-like restriction by the industry vendors is no known legal restriction, but market-based. A lot of the vendors also don't like civilians running around, in theory, with better armor than Law Enforcement.

I guess this is the right place to ask this, what is a reasonable price to pay for an old M81 Flak Jacket? Found one someone wants to sell, I want to give a reasonable price but not overpay.

I'd say

Furthermore, if you were to replicate my path to knowledge through browsing old-school Lightfighter threads from 2003 onward as well as many other sources, you'll likely be shocked to find out the civilian body armor industry has actually made very little progress in the department of protection since the year 2000. If anything, we've actually regressed. NIJ 0101.06 and the upcoming NIJ 0101.07 are certainly upgrades from NIJ 0101.03 and NIJ 0101.04, but why is it that we are only just now getting a rating that covers 5.56x45mm M193 and M855 now with NIJ 0101.07 (RF2)? It really makes you think. If you want to learn more, I recommend you listen in, and do some reading of your own. I might be an "authority" on the topic, but I'm only human and I can skip some things. The greatest asset in the body armor industry is knowledge.

Anyway, I think the civilian body armor market is deliberately held back so that Law Enforcement (especially the FBI and other federal agencies) has exclusive access to higher-rated plates.

Is that 4520 M993 resistant plate multi hit capable? And it is not available for civilian sale correct?

That's more than I expected, not a bad thing but good to know. Not planning on using it for anything but dumb pictures, just adding it to the collection.

Immediate disclaimer: Home made armor isn't a great idea.

But isn't this LIBA design incredibly low-tech? Manufacturing flaws aside, it looks like the kind of process that could be managed in someone's garage.

reposting here
opticsplanet.com/blackhawk-s-t-r-i-k-e-gen-4-molle-system-plate-carrier-harness.html?_iv_color=multicam

ar500armor.com/plate-carriers/plate-carriers-en/veritas-plate-carrier-modular.html

shop.tacticalshit.com/shellback-tactical-defender-active-shooter-kit

getting the plates seperate so which one of these should I get as a poorfag plate carrier?

open to any suggestions but goddamn it Im not paying much more than 100$ for a fucking vest that lugs around steel inserts.

Attached: HNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.jpg (768x1024, 81K)

Attached: 1533929203677.gif (640x352, 1.43M)

This (patents.google.com/patent/EP0843149A1/en?assignee=Mofet Etzion) patent straight up is the manufacturing method of LIMA. It's also expired.

In theory, if you can solve manufacturing flaws you can do home repairs for LIBA plates by taking out the bearings (the above patent also references hexagons but those must be a separate model) and replacing them with new homemade ones.

Just make sure they're as strong as the old ones. In theory, you can massively improve LIBA's performance by switching the Alumina bearings out for Silicon Carbide ones.

Just grab what seems the best-stitched so it doesn't conk out when you put the plates in it.

that's a "less than" sign

I stress again that you should all look at this patent. It has the exact manufacturing steps used to create the plate you see in the top right of the OP image.

there isnt an approved poorfag plate carrier or poorfag company for plate carriers?
I just dont know anyomore and I dont want to ask gear queers since they will just roast me for not having 300$ to blow on a plate carrier.

I've got a vidya question here, if you magdumped into someone wearing IIIA body armour with an m4 what would happen?

Well, Level IIIA is only rated for 9x19mm and .44 Magnum, so if you're using either M193 or M855 5.56x45mm out of an M4 rifle you're going to very easily kill that guy. The armor will absorb some of the energy and it'll certainly reduce penetration depth at least in gel testing, but not by much. He'll, in theory, be slightly less damaged by an individual shot than if he were not wearing the armor... but he's still gonna be dead meat anyway.

It's incredible how simple the resin procedure is. I could make a rudimentary plate of that version of the armor tomorrow.

Color me intrigued.

Good luck, user. Definitely post results of any testing.

ceramic balls are expensive

If the patent is truly expired and has not received any extension, it sounds like you could make a killing!

Now go, let the LIBA come back to life!

Attached: lethelegend.png (378x353, 269K)

Ty user, time to go call someone a lying faggot.

Err, from what I'm seeing they're like 10 dollars a kilo...

If my armor autism and simply looking up a patent leads to a new generation of US body armor, holy shit.

>this thread

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Looking in the wrong place. Ball mill supplies can put the price down to a buck a kilo.

Not actually sure you need much better quality than that: It's not like they're intended to survive the impact.

alibaba.com/product-detail/2mm-to-20mm-AL2O3-high-alumina_60688374639.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.10.7d1f208ctxvbxy&s=p

Exactly what the patent calls for. God bless the chinks.

link?
are they the right size?

It's probably a good idea to imitate actual LIBA as closely as possible to gather testing data and then optimize as you go. God speed, because you have a real opportunity here. If you reproduce LIBA's ability perfectly, you'll be home-producing Level III/IV plates that can withstand 20-25 .30-06 M2AP penetrators, 20-25 times what any ordinary Level IV plate has to stop.

Now that's what I'm talking about.

so is there a plate carrier approved list?

I think they're supposed to be cylinders, not beads

Attached: pellets.png (924x349, 28K)

Many of those vendors also deal out quality plate carriers. Velocity Systems' carriers are often considered some of the best, alongside Crye.

Wait I'm new here and I've seen people loading M2AP in 7.62, 30-06 and winmag but isn't LM a 338 cartridge?

We need an actual LIBA plate we can sacrifice to find out. They're extremely uncommon stateside however, although an user has provided me extensive picture evidence to indicate he owns one, such as the picture here.

Attached: libaback.jpg (4032x3024, 2.68M)

These are not significantly more expensive. "rod" type pellets are used in ball mills as well.

good to know
anyone find a chink listing with rod pellets?

Picture #2.

Attached: libafront.jpg (1000x750, 272K)

run those bar codes

zyceram.en.made-in-china.com/product/GBqQDNvVHPUT/China-92-95-Aluminum-Oxide-Al2O3-Alumina-Grinding-Cylinder.html

See, those look like pellets to me, and with the epoxy filler.
I can't find anything on what kind of epoxy to use, however. The patent only describes what kind of aluminum to use for the other method. Would generic industrial epoxy do the trick?

*like spheres
THIS IS FROM THE PATENT

There are shown in Fig. 1, for illustrative purposes, a mixture of round pellets 18a, flat-cylindrical pellets 18b, and spherical pellets 18c. Considerations of symmetry, as well as tests carried out by the present inventor, indicate that the most effective pellet shape is spherical 18c. Ceramic pellets are used as grinding media in size-reduction mills of various types, typically in tumbling mills, and are thus commercially available at a reasonable cost.

only one way to find out

chasetactical.com/product/active-response-carrier-arc/

thanks I think I've found my poorfag plate carrier.
also
you guys are fucking nuts. I want a carrier that can stop maybe some buckshot or tyrone with a 9mm.
real deal at most whatever 5.56 they issue PD's and national guard.
and even then just a few hits. I just dont see how hot load AP rounds from a fucking .308 are gonna find me unless I hit five stars IRL and they FBI gets called in.

Attached: nato.jpg (458x640, 86K)

>there isnt an approved poorfag plate carrier or poorfag company for plate carriers?
But there is.
>I just dont know anyomore and I dont want to ask gear queers since they will just roast me for not having 300$ to blow on a plate carrier.
Not true. The top tier poorfag PC is the AWS OCPC. We rec it all the time.

Just did, got a bunch of water hoses besides one reference to a "dutch" plate here:
red-alliance.net/forum/index.php?topic=16209.10;wap2

The epoxy is the easy part. According to the patent, it's basically "Whatever you want that's elastic", so we just pick something with good durability and stability for cost.

If I'm doing proof of concept, I'm just going to get a jug of the cheap stuff, it's not like I'm going to try to replicate their aluminum bedded version.

>some absolute madman Jow Forumsommando steals gear from some autistic commie

beautiful

I'm not in a position to test it right now, being at college. They recomaned a fibre-reinforced material, which I'm looking into now.

>These are not significantly more expensive.
Perhaps not, but they will be a lot harder to stack labor-wise during assembly.

My threat model is "The Second American Civil War" so a drop-proof ultra-robust plate like the above LIBAs rated for 20-25 hits of .30-06 M2AP is extremely attractive. I'll help you out a little with your plate selection, because in this day and age you'll need plates to stop 9x19mm. Why?

50gr Liberty Defense 9x19mm JHP is known to reliably penetrate NIJ Level IIIA with ease. 5.7x28mm also generally has an easy time with IIIA, which is why some carriers are offered now in NIJ-IIIA+ rating. On the rifle side, Tungsten-core AP is uncommon but will see greater use in a serious domestic conflict than in the Middle East. M993 (7.62x51mm Tungsten AP) is only really needed if you need to take out armored cores or if you're dealing with Level IV+ armor that can handle conventional steel core ammo very easily, and the United States has a substantial domestic armor industry so in the event of a domestic conflict, body armor is to be an expected issue. My advice? Don't stop at Level IIIA, go to Level III+ at the very least and do not go Level IV unless you absolutely need single-hit protection from .30-06 M2AP. Level III/IV ICW plates like the VS-P34 are your best bet.

Manufag here: I cannot speak to design efficacy, but spheres will be easier to load into the matrix IME.

Yep I know, I was expecting the response to be "less than $50"

*Armored cars, not armored cores. You're going to need something a lot stronger to take out one of those.