From a military perspective, was Pearl Harbor justified?

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I mean the Japs getting crushed, we all know how pearl harbor went.

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this would get discussed from time to time back in the day on usenet (soc.history.war.world-war-ii)

Had the Japanese attacked properly, it would have been freaking devastating

* Bomb the drydocks
* Bomb anything resembling infrastructure
* destroy the oil tanks
* Try to sink a ship in the mouth of the harbor

Bonus: Park some subs around Hawaii to sink any incoming oil tankers and possibly the returning aircraft carriers

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>Thanks for propelling us to world superpower though. Couldn't have done it without double nuking you tards.
got a good kek out of this

Legally, an oil embargo isn’t enough to justify starting a war. However, they had other reasons and were hoping for a different outcome. There are a few videos on this, I know one YouTube channel went over every detail whil history buffs did an okay job while reviewing a movie tora tora tora.

youtu.be/f6cz9gtMTeI Link to first video I mentioned

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Congrats, you killed Hawaii. Maybe.

Now what? You can’t invade, and you have little staging for operations of CONUS. So now, all the USN has to do is sit on their hands for a few years and build up a fleet of infinite fuck you, and there’s not much Japan can do about it.

This.

Imperial Japan did not represent all asians, they attacked, pilaged and raped, Koreans, Chinese and other asians because they were evil greedy pricks.

If they were really about showing up the whites, they would be better than them and not engage in selfish imperialism, themselves.

invade Hawaii.

The plan was never to invade the CONUS, it was to knockout the 7th Fleet and end the war in the Pacific before it started. But none of the carriers were in port at the time so it went really really badly for them

>knockout the 7th Fleet and end the war in the Pacific before it started
That wouldn't have ended the war, it just would have made the Americans even more pissed.

Since nobody else has seriously answered, I guess I'll give it a shot. Given that:
1. The Japanese Emipre needed to expand to sustain itself
2. Going to war with the Soviet Union is logistically infeasible
Expanding in any direction on the compass but north will inevitably lead to conflict with the US, an economically superior opponent, who has spent the last 20 years planning for war with the Empire.
Now, naval doctrine in this era was dominated by Mahan's writings; that is to say that a climactic clash of battleships on the open ocean would decide the naval war, and thus the entire war. With the advent of the aircraft carrier, this was expanded to the idea of a single grand fleet engagement, with both carriers and battleships being simultaneously engaged to win this single "Decisive battle", as the Japanese knew the concept. Thus, Japan's war strategy was entirely dependent on preparing for this ultimate engagement.
The Pearl Harbor strike would give Japan the breathing room it needed to secure a grand line of defense in Southeast Asia, without the meddling of America's pacific fleet. Upon securing as far as their tenuous supply lines could sustain, they would dig in, whilst constructing forward anchorages for her ships, and airstrips for her planes.
Once America had licked it's wounds, raised it's ships, and concentrated it's forces for the ultimate battle, they would be obliged to advance through hostile territory to join battle, whereupon they would be constantly harried by Japanese destroyers and cruisers constantly launching torpedoes from maximum range, coupled with constant land-based level bombing and torpedo attacks, and would be gradually ground down until such a time as the Japanese's numerically inferior, but qualitatively superior fleet could best the American one on the battlefield.

It would've delayed it significantly allowing the Japs time to claim more ground and leverage their newfound resources into more ships/aircraft and giving them a better footing when it all kicked off

Now, obviously, with hindsight, we can see the glaring problems with this plan: That Japanese ships were not, in fact, more capable than their American opponents, that level bombing attacks against maneuvering warships are basically useless, and that by the second world war, Mahanian doctrine is wrong in basically every way, however, when strictly taken in the context of the 1920s naval doctrine it was a product of, the Pearl Harbor raid is not only logical, but perhaps the only choice when it comes to successfully executing Japan's chosen grand strategy.

You guys know that US intervention was inevitable and that a first strike to destroy the US only forward port in the Pacific was a strategic necessity right?

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>consolidate supply lines and defenses in SEA
>use its resources to get rid of your bottlenecks
>it's now ridiculously difficult for the US to reach your shores because there's no resupply and repair base (Hawaii)
>become infinitely more powerful at negotiations

Reminder that Japan never intended to take the US.

>all these people drinking the propaganda Kool aid that Japan was an arrogant fool who awoke the sleeping giant

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>US intervention was inevitable
Wrong. The US wanted a war with Germany, not Japan.
>the US only forward port in the Pacific
Except Guam and the Philippines.
>strategic necessity
Except for the part where the US was focused on Germany, and not Japan.
America had been preparing for war for several years... with Germany. You just bought the Japanese propaganda Kool aid that America was somehow the instigator.

It would give the japan about a year of naval superiority in the pacific. The US would also lose most of its experienced pacific sailors if it was compl destroyed.

>not realizing that it only ended up making their situation much much worse within 1 year later, and their tooth and nail fight to the last man in the Pacific cost them 1 million soldiers lives in a 3 year period and destroyed their countries infrastructure.
Their choices were either get fucked now or get fucked later and they chose get fucked now.

These are not mutually exclusive. Sure, Japan would have a massive advantage, but that advantage would go away in the face of American industrial might. Japan could not win this fight.
Powerful, until the US spent the manpower to take those islands anyway, at higher cost, and end up nuking Japan in the end anyway. No path leads to victory.

>When you got your ass kicked so hard that the only complaining you do comes in the form of retarded pretend play that involves little girls that are supposed to be battleships and alternate universe harem self insert protagonist degeneracy, because it's the only way the tiny and retarded generation of youth your dying country has produced will buy it

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Japan could win the hearts and minds of the people.

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No, you can't justify executing a military attack when the guy you put in charge because of his experience with your enemy explains that it will backfire.

Then what were they? A smart and measured people who thought they could suckerpunch a much more powerful nation into concessions that would just let them continue to upset the balance of power and continue on their warpath?

>wanted a war with Germany, not Japan
And Japan wanted the oil and rubber of South East Asia.

>Guam and Philpines
OK, I should've said only port in the near future. Ie in the Japanese plan to take Guam and the Philippines shortly afterwards

>focused on Germany, not Japan
And Japan was focused on SEA

>America was the instigator
I never said this. A war with the US was inevitable in Japanese geopolitical goals. They decided to strike first, quite logically.

But they were and got utterly BTFO. Stay mad subhuman gook.

No, a smart nation who realized that historically, the more economically powerful and populous nation did not always win, and that winning is a matter of force projection and logistics. And that with the oil and resources of SEA under their belt they were infinitely more capable.

Also warpath? Please, all the great powers were doing that shit every Tuesday. China, Korea, India.

>a smart nation who realized that historically, the more economically powerful and populous nation did not always win
Yeah in total warfare that may work on 3rd world China but not the US

>let's attack a country with literally ten times as much warmaking potential as us and hope that they don't wipe the floor with us even though they have both the ability to and a good reason to

No amount of rationalization will make this a good idea.

Which is funny, because this is how half of the wars involving the US start.

Actually Pearl Habour made their situation much better in one year. If it didn't happen in one year Guam and the Philippines would be much better defended, the US would have much more ships and be much ahead in a national war footing. And have a fully functional Hawaii port.

Post the other one where they are at midway and all of them die

before or after they rape and murder the lot of them?

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>Also warpath? Please, all the great powers were doing that shit every Tuesday.
Eh, the Japanese were especially brutal and just plain cruel. Imperialism is one thing, but systematic torture, rape, "experiments"... I think a moral distinction can be made and "warpath" is an unjustified statement.

Also, if they were so smart they would have realized that the US was going to punch back hard and that force projection is kind of our thing.

>the greatest military blunder of the second World War.

I’ll give it a tie with Barbarossa.

>"warpath" is an unjustified statement.
*justified

haha no
combinedfleet.com/pearlops.htm

You do know the US infected its own populace with biological agents for the same reasons? Britian and the US did the same in Germany and Japan, even though since they won it was largely left out of the history books.
At least japan had the decency to use foreigners

either way it was still a case of
>get fucked now
or
>get fucked later
And we all know how it turned out for them in the end

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they also said that Hong Kong and Singapore would be impossible to invade.

what is this manga ?

Persian Greek wars. Sino-Russo wars. Plenty of examples.

>You do know the US infected its own populace with biological agents for the same reasons?
Blablablablablabla MK Ultra blablabalbbalablabla Tuskeegee Airmen blabblabla

Yeah, that shit pales in comparison to Unit 731 and the Rape of Nanking

?????

?????

>they also said that Hong Kong and Singapore would be impossible to invade.

nobody said that of Hong Kong and Singapore was a tough nut to crack from the sea route. In fact, the very method used by the Japanese to take Singapore (hit it from the land side) was an acknowledgement of this. Only the Brits drank the Singapore is uninvadable kool-aid, Us naval planners working on War Plan Orange knew Singapore was a vulnerable base, which is why they declined a pre-war British offer to base US fleet assets there.

imagine showing this comic to the people they occupied and held prisoner

But notice how none of those wars include the US or the Americas in general which are one of the most isolated landmasses along with Australia and were not examples of total war like WW1 and WW2 were. There was no chance Japan would have been able to beat the US out of the Pacific permanently under even a limited total war scenario, all the major battles after Midway were pushing them back to their home islands. Just think about that, going from controlling almost the entire northern Pacific in late 1941 to being stuck to the home islands with most of your fleet at the bottom of the ocean by late 1945.

Check’d

4 years wasn't a bad try atleast

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And yet they still wouldn’t have had a anywhere near the resources to even approach the American war machine. The USN commissioned more (and better) ships in 1944 than the IJN did from 41 through 45. And if the war had gone on longer, then you start getting into things like the Montana’s and Midways. Japan had no chance, even if they had scoured every bit infrastructure off the face of Hawaii.

Lol they barely had enough fuel to get to midway what are they gonna do? burn wood?

considering all the flaws in IJN doctrine, the fact that they lasted that long is amazing.

Under the latest iteration of warplan orange, as well as the successor plan rainbow, the US was planning to take it slow and move through the central pacific slowly and with good logistical backing. the pace of the war was totally dictated by the US logistical constraints.

Chinese people burned pretty well, they would've just fed them into the boilers

can I please get the name of this manga I can't find it on google

It they succeeded, it would have
But they fucked up by not destroying the entire fleet, and it cost them the war

Pearl Harbor gave the kikes pulling the strings of the US government the perfect excuse to jump into the war, and genocide the German, and Japanese people. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the sunken ships were false flag operations, along side the actual casualties caused by the sneak attack.

You wouldn't like it. America loses to Japan.

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>genocide the Japanese
If the plan was to kill all the slant eyed fucked why'd we make them into an economic powerhourse?

Militarily, it was very well-planned and rehearsed. The fact the strike group made it across the Pacific undetected is impressive. Japan knew war with the US was coming but not many Americans supported it until after the attack on Pearl Harbor. So while it was a good first move, it quickly put the Americans into war-mode. Admiral Yamamoto knew that would happen but his orders were to plan an opening attack and so he did.
Tactically, the attack didn't go as smoothly as it could have. Lots of planes missed their targets and formations were flying through each others paths.
This video shows the actual moves and results very well:
youtube.com/watch?v=f6cz9gtMTeI

In addition to missing out on the carriers being in the harbor, Japanese planes failed to destroy the dry docks and fuel depots. This would have been the objective of the third wave, but Admiral Nagumo withheld them from launch because he didn't know where the American carriers were. While this move may be controversial, I agree with it. Get out of the area with all ships intact, launch some more raids in the Pacific, and get back to port.

The Americans being caught off guard may have been for the best in the long run. Suppose the Pacific fleet did get warning and set sail to fight the Japanese. Japan may have lost some ships and more planes in the battle, but any losses the US took would have been unsalvageable because they would have went down in deeper water.

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It was as logical as suicide by cop

This is your brain on Jow Forums.
Jow Forums, not even once.

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I thought it followed history pretty well, just with the shit jap nationalism. But I probably remembered wrong.

he seems to be rather upset over the outcome of the war

How is that 60 years after the war, beta American teenagers are butthurt about Japan and Germany losing?

They don't win, it's viewed through the lens of shitty Nip nationalism during the war. Note how the Enterprise isn't sunk

Oops, 80 years later. I can't math.

Read the whole thing and quit judging from the cherrypicked pages posted here. The manga is actually a very detailed account of the Pacific War that’s mostly done from the IJN point of view.

And the manga isn’t afraid to be highly critical of Japan’s fuckups during the war.

>necessity
Did you forget what acting on that “necessity” got them? An infinitely worse outcome for them than literally anything else that wouldn’t involve attacking the US, a country that had not expended any reasources in the conflict by that point

>weeaboo idiots drinking the Japanese propoganda Kool-aid that attacking the US was the smart/necessary move
>completely forgetting that in reality, they suffered the worst possible outcome because of this
>literally got double nuked
The only thing that would have made it worse for them is if they didn’t surrender and they got nuked/firebombed even more prior to the US acting on plans to invade the mainland of Japan.

You can be happy that the radiation fucked them hard enough to result in the animu & culture you love that’s spread to the west though

No, you're right. He's just posting all the out of context NIPPON BANZAI stuff because you have to remember that the story is told from a Japanese perspective and that's what they thought happened at the time.

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The attack on pearl was only logical if you count the Japs as greedy subhumans consumed by hubris.

gib source then

Admiral's Decision by TK

lol. This basically. I wouldn't call them subhumans, but why is no one else questioning their asinine ambitions in the first place? If Pearl Harbor was a "necessity" that would ultimately backfire, maybe ask why it's a necessity and change that?

Japan's military at that time was way too ambitious and ethnocentric. They really believed their conviction to fight and die would win over and make the Americans ask for peace. While many Americans considered the Japanese racially inferior, the Japanese thought the same of the Americans. They believed things like they had better night vision and thus they would win those engagements (Which got them some rude surprises when the Americans displayed what their radar-controlled fire could do)
To avoid war with the Americans, the Japanese would have had to withdraw from China. That was never going to happen.

I still would like the source

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War with Japan was inevitable -- assuming the reality that the Tojo government was never going to stop their Chinese adventure, and the US was never going to let them keep going.

The greater asian prosperity sphere or whatever the fuck it was called was just a half-baked bullshit plan pulled out of their asses to provide some kind of way to fight the West and defend the Empire. Fact is, the Pearl raid taxed the IJN's logistical capability to the max. Fact is, Japan didn't have NEARLY the economic or military capacity to hold any of the islands they planned on taking. Shit, they didn't even have the capacity to continue their adventure in China.

The US was getting ready to attack Japan. So in the strictly military sense the Pearl attack achieved Japan's main short term objective. But they had no way, none, to stop from being absolutely BTFO Pearl or no Pearl. Even if Japan had managed to destroy the entire Pacific US fleet, all that would have happened was extending their eventual defeat.

I don’t think a US first strike was in the cards. FDR was perfectly happy to sit back and watch the Japanese starve on oil. Japan felt pressured because the moment their oil ran out so would their expansionism.

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The US was moving a bunch of bombers into the Philippines. The intent was clear.

Japan wouldn’t last 2 seconds on American soil

it would have been very difficult for the US to justify a war against Japan without the attacks on the Philippines and Hawaii. It was possible (but would have been considered by the Japanese high command to be crazy) to seize the Southern oil fields without attacking Pearl Harbor and taking the Philippines as preliminaries. It would have left a Damocles sword hanging on the Japanese supply line, but it would have been difficult for FDR to cut the string.

There would be no war with Japan until Congress and the American public supported it.
The American military was taking steps to ready itself for a fight with Japan, it's the whole reason the Pacific fleet was moved from San Diego to Pearl Harbor. The American carriers that day were out training and delivering aircraft to island outposts.
Those actions were deterrents but America was not going to make the first move. FDR was more interested in war with Germany and that too was something that wasn't going to happen. In fact, it only came when it did because Germany declared war on the US. FDR was trying to find some link to the Germans and Pearl Harbor and quickly realized there was none.

but they did get on American soil at the Aleutian Islands and lasted longer than 2 seconds

Officially, they were meant to defend the Phillipines because the US was almost 100% certain Japan would attack there. They just never expected the IJN having the balls or the capability to strike Pearl Harbor first.

The ONLY way for Japan to have won was not to have fought. Essentially, the Imperial government had to be ditched, the war in China cancelled -- ONLY then could they have maybe kept Manchuria. Japan was way too late to the imperialism game and got wrekt.

Paranoia much? Go take your meds and lay down a bit...

>There would be no war with Japan until Congress and the American public supported it.
There would be no war until we had a fucking military, you dumb shit.

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