Help me out, Jow Forums. I keep jumping back and forth between the two and I'm not really sure which way to go. I'm wanting to go the pistol route to avoid the SBR hassle.
I really like the look of the Scorpion and the ability to have a folding or collapsible brace.
But I also like the price point of an AR pistol. The thing I don't like though is that I can't have a folding brace and 223 out of a short barrel can be pretty brutal on the shooter, or at least that's what I keep reading. I could go the AR-9 route but every one of them I've seen just looks strange.
Since a folding stock seems to be important to you, allow me introduce you to the Law Tactical adaptor (pic related). A lot of people use these on AR pistols, but it's gonna drive up the overall price quite a bit.
i have both. first off, good plan with the braces. not everyone wants to sbr and thats fine, especially when considering how nice braces are currently. keep in mind the brace on the scorpion like in your pic is pricey at $250. sb makes a folding brace which isnt telescoping but very comfy and much more affordable at $100. the scoprion is a good gun but needs aftermarket parts to make it a great gun. this will also add to cost. a 556 ar pistol will probably be cheaper, depending on configuration. the concussive blast isnt as bad to the shooter as it is to people near you. you can cut this down with a linear comp. theres a noticeably large reduction in blast with the comp. a kak linear can is like $30. i would not reccomend an ar in 9mm, for the most part theyre very mediocre. ive tried to keep things brief but it comes down to how much you want to spend and what targets your shooting at as well as the distances at which youre shooting them.
Hudson Cooper
Good info, thanks man.
I'm not looking for anything long range, maybe 50 yards max. The main thing I'm looking for is something fun and interesting to shoot but that can serve a purpose since I also do a lot of travelling in my state and would love to be able to have something compact other than a pistol to carry in my car which is why I like the idea of a folding or collapsible brace.
The 556 pistol would have the benefit of being able to use mags and ammo that I already have since I've already got two AR-15s.
Price isn't a huge issue, but AR pistol kits are dirt cheap right now so that is definitely appealing.
Carson Martin
at 50 yards, either will be fine. youre right about it being dirt cheap for ARs, the market is very saturated right now. if a car gun is a factor, i would pick the scorpion. the idea of 30 rounds of 9mm in a small package is appealing to me. plus since you already have two ARs, this will be something different. if you do go with the scorpion, check out manticore mags. they have metal re enforced feedlips. i havent tried them myself, because i have a lot of factory mags, but i hear theyre very nice. pic is of my two scorpions. im wanting something different now so i sold the pistol and plan on selling the carbine as well.
Dead foot arms makes a folding buffer tube that unlike can fire while folded. You'll still have a super short buffer tube on the back when folded (like an inch or so) but if you want to be able to fire while folded it's worth it.
Austin Morgan
The manticore mags got some bad reviews early on, I think. The factory ones now are great and if you get some old ones that crack cz will replace them.
Here's my scorpion which has pretty much everything I want on it, and my ar pistol that needs a more Gucci handguard (I have an slr on the way).
The tailhook with the scorpion is hard to beat and looks great. The HBI rail I have a little buyer's remorse over but it does make it look pretty spacegun.
The tailhook mod 2 is my favorite ar stock/brace. It unironically is a better stock than most of the inexpensive 4 and 6 position carbine stocks out there.
I will probably buy a tailhook mod 3 if it ever comes out.
Sounds good. I might just go ahead and go with the Scorpion. Was it a good shooter right out of the box or did you have to make a bunch of mods to it? How has reliability been?
They're a few hundred more than the AR pistol builds I was looking at but there is something so appealing to them.
Jeremiah Ross
As an additional point, the primary arms advanced micro dot will cowitness perfectly with factory cz scorpion sights, if that matters to you (it doesnt really to me)
Adrian Harris
I just bought a CZ yesterday. Feels amazing. Took it out to the range today and shoots really good. Have a brace, a forward angle grub, thumb rest and a Sig red dot. Felt really great. Keep it in my drawer in my nightstand
These can perform at easily 4+ times that range This alone makes the scorpion a better option for OP
Hunter Scott
Its a great shooting right out of the box if a bit unergonomic. But the aftetmarket is there in abundance so it's hard not to indulge.
Dominic Cooper
good looking scorpion. i had some gen 1 mags with cracked feedlips and they worked fine. i just never bothered to contact cz about it. i think the manticore mags are a great idea though. out of the box, i think theyre just OK. there arent bad guns by any means, its just that imo they have small "issues" that all add up. the trigger pull was lack luster. the charging handle is way too small. the right side safety digs into my hand when on fire. i did not like how the rear sling slides into the frame so i had to get a qd cup for it and a key ring to attach the front part. the mag release was ok but the aftermarket paddle mag release is much better imo. a lot of guys complain about the factory grip but i liked it. i only swapped it because, well fuck it, i already added a bunch of shit to it why not one more? reliability was 100% from what i remember. both guns ate every type of ammo i tried including tula steel, wolf steel, and brown bear. i did not use any +p ammo, i dont know if you can or not. the only issue i had, unrelated to the gun itself, was the hbi trigger springs. i had an issue where the trigger didnt reset, a very common issue if you google it. i reinstalled and it worked great.
Blake Barnes
>These can perform at easily 4+ times that range 9mm at 200 yards- i guess that depends on your definition of "perform". anyway, OP said he was shooting at 50 yards, i only said that either will be fine at this range.
Leo Roberts
Theres videos of 9mm defensive rounds penetrating and expanding in gel past 200 yards. The energy is there if you can get the round on target
Aaron Rivera
Get a MeanArms EndoMag, Google it—it is a converter to turn PMags into 9mm AR mags. I have had mine on preorder for a few months and they should begin shipping any week now. Gonna combine the EndoMags with the Foxtrot Mike 9mm AR upper (350-ish at Primary Arms). This is gonna be an awesome PCC for USPSA once fully setup. Can’t wait. Seriously look into it. Only other thing I recommend would be a 9mm buffer.
Ryan Miller
>223 out of a short barrel >AR-9 looks strange Why not .300 BLACKED? It's literally made for short barrels. Barely costs more than a .223 AR.
Kevin Clark
Both cost more than 9mm
Caleb Allen
ARs are gay
Ethan Smith
I love mine, It lets you take a whole lot of firepower around with you in a backpack.
Ayden James
For personal defense i think the AR makes slightly more sense if we're talking a 10" or more bbl, if we're talking 7.5" or something like that then I'd probably just go with the scorpion. Most 9mm ammo on the market plays fine with the slightly longer barrel on the scorpion, Id have a much harder time finding and feeling confident in 5.56 loads for a 7.5" AR. For maximum concealability/portability the scorpion would also make more sense from my perspective, it fits in a standard backpack pretty easily when folded for instance. Folding stocks for ARs are quite pricey OTOH and usually cant fire when folded, also any AR with a respectable bbl length is going to have a longer OAL than the shorter bbl scorpion and may require a longer or specific carrying bag/case. I also think that the scorpion is a little more pleasant to use on the range than a short barrel AR, particularly for extended sessions or indoors. Ditto on this from my scorpion. I have found one type of ammo it isn't reliable with though, winchester steel causes malfunctions pretty reliably when loaded past 15 or so rounds in a mag. When it comes to the HBI trigger spring install I'd strongly recommend using some sort of small object like a punch or pin to keep the springs legs from crisscrossing(causes the reset issues) worked wonders for me and it's been 100% since.
Benjamin Carter
9mm ARs are fine, good as the scorpion even
You just need to build them right. Everyone I've seen who has tried building one without doing their research all end up having the same problems. They buy a AR15 kitten thinking it'll be fine, when holy shit, it's not. Built right, and they'll last until the end of time given there's no gas piston you need to fuck with.
On top of that, you get 98% parts commonality with regular ARs except for buffer springs and buffers that need to be 9mm rated.
Grayson Davis
apc9 or sp5k. learn how to budget and don't settle for anything less
Nicholas Allen
The fact that its possible to build one wrong makes the scorpion a better buy
Benjamin Edwards
Sp5k is outdated
Ayden Gutierrez
It's not that hard to find non-icepicking ammo for 7.5" barrel ARs, you just have to go with soft-point or hollow-point bullets instead of FMJ yaw-and-fragment designs. And that's not an issue since you're not a military that has to worry about bullshit laws-of-war.
That said, if you're really concerned enough about physical size to go below a 10" AR-15, you're probably better off with a mag-in-grip PCC pistol -- between the shorter action stroke for a pistol cartridge, and moving the magazine ~4" to the rear, you can squeeze a lot more barrel length in a given overall length that way, pic related. (Note that the 9" AR has some kind of flash can, where the mech-tech pistol has a bare muzzle, so it's not quite a fair comparison.)
I know this is ironic but I actually love watching people whinge about how they think blowback 9 smgs and pccs have heavy recoil, mostly mpx owners with buyers remorse, then they relate b&t "luxury" guns in the next breath.
Firearms elitists are (mostly) retarded
Joshua Baker
This. Braced/sbr blowback 9s are ar15 soft.
Andrew Mitchell
Will it affect the reliability of the gun?
Jason Brooks
Good question. How secure is the lockup on these things?
Justin Lopez
That goes for any gun ever you idiot
>ARs Wrong combination of gas system and buffers, maybe mins are misaligned
>AKs Rivets not done right, receiver is out of spec, rifle is under gassed
>Glocks You bought a Glock
>M1911 You assembled it wrong
If you're putting together a firearm, and you fuck it up, it's not a mechanical flaw, you're just an idiot. Every single 9mm AR manufacturer will tell you to use a 9mm AR parts kit if you're putting one together, because it's an AR. You get all the fun of Barbie, but doesnt mean you need the reading comprehension to not fuck it up.
If you want a piss easy 9mm AR, go buy a PSA lower prebuilt, and put on your choice of upper. I have seen one have over a thousand rounds put through it without cleaning and without failure except when shitty Tula or Wolf is used because they both like to undercharge their ammunition.
Daniel Fisher
Wtf are you even saying
Christian Baker
They're both toys. They can be used for home defense and I guess could be used to go to war, but they're toys.
AR pistols are loud. Ballistics of a 5.56 pistol are worse than a real AR. In my experience tend to be more finicky than a full size AR. 9mm AR's are cancer.
CZ scorpion works. Kind of a toy though. Very reliable though, straight blowback is hard to fuck up.
Honestly whichever one you want. I would use a scorpion more, and ammo for that is cheaper anyway. If you already have an AR I wouldn't bother with the pistol unless you're going 300memeout. I'd say get the scorpion.
Cameron Barnes
Seems like a landslide for the scorpion.
Joseph Foster
AR "pistols" are gay. Scorpions are for poor people. Get NEITHER.
Ayden Kelly
Anybody have a Diamondback AR pistol? Tempted to get one in 7.62x39.
> kind of a toy > the fun switch version is in military and law enforcement service throughout the world
Dont be such a fucking retard for once in your life
Jonathan Torres
the evo would be a great like $550 gun. Why they still cost $700 with absolutely nothing on the gun is baffling. Stribog hasn't even been out half a year and is already $630, and isn't made out polymer.
Aiden Ward
Stribog a shit.
Elijah White
>implying the evo isn't either
Lucas Brown
Alright do I still need to gas myself if I buy one in 5.56?
Benjamin Hernandez
just buy a $280 psa 556 10.3 or whatever kit and add a lower
How do you figure the slovak b&t knock off worse than the slav UMP knock off?
Daniel Watson
Scorpion or MPX?
Josiah Kelly
What's the overall length with the Scorpion pistol and brace?
Justin Cruz
From what I can remember its 23ish like in ops pic and 24.5ish extended.
Brayden Anderson
I wouldn't go with that pistol length AR unless it was 300blk. Go for the scorpion, they cheap/fun to shoot and will eat any 9mm
Henry Sanchez
Pretty sure the stribog that's available right now has a reciprocating charging handle, no sling mounts, and no bho. The A3 which is the one you think you're talking about that's actually decent isn't imported yet. Just be cause it looks like a b&t doesn't make it a knock off.
Charles Ortiz
Micro with a folding sba3 is 13.5"
Austin Wilson
>no bho it does >reciprocating charging handle who cares >no sling mounts just buy a mlok qd section, a blue force wire sling adapter and attach the other end to your brace
Christian Reyes
>Who cares people who like to shoot subguns with both hands comfortably. >just buy all this extra bullshit that should come with the pistol to make ot acceptable. It's cheap because it's an incomplete product. That doesn't make it a better value for money.
Asher Lopez
>a $18 sling mount is prohibitively expensive calling the stribog incomplete while praising the scorpion is laughable considering first thing that 80% of evo owners do is throw the grip in the garbage, buy a safety delete and changes the springs a gun that costs $70 more and is made from fucking polymer
Michael Martin
Changing shit as a matter of preference is completely different than having to buy things because you were too stupid to buy a gun that has them. But keep going. I love that you'll make yourself look this dumb to defend a gun you don't own despite its "great value"
How asinine are you that you think some molded plastic loops for ancient HK clip slings no one has used since the early 90's is somehow a big selling feature for the gun? The Scorpion has shitty ergonomics from the factory with the A2 angle grip and the ambi safety, which end up getting replaced by most owners anyway.
You sound like someone who wouldn't buy a rifle because you are butthurt you'd have to buy a $10 set of removable sling swivels
Adam Roberts
Ghm9 vs zeniths?
Dylan Flores
The reciprocating charging handle and lack of sights are the real dealbreakers. But keep clinging to those slingloops and saying the same thing over and over. I can't even find 2 pictures of the stribog with the same features. What actually do you get when you buy that shitheap?
David Bell
I'd buy a scorpion if they offered this. They don't though, and it would cost over $1200 to make it...
Robert Harris
50 yards you might as well use a slingshot
Bentley Hernandez
The collapsible micro won't be as short but it will be $1100 but they keep pushing back the release and SBT hasn't even released the brace that was pushed back to this month and will probably be pushed back again. Which is why I bit the bullet and built it better for more money.
Nathan Nelson
9mm is effective to and beyond 200 yards. Dude just cant shoot.
Cooper Bennett
The micro seems neato but I would rather have the shorter folding brace and not have a fake can
You'd think they'd make a true K version instead of what is essentially a reverse stretch
William Gray
>lack of sights flip up BUIS are built into the gun I like reciprocating handles and don't try to c-clamp so it's a non issue for me. From what people are saying, it shoots softer than a EVO, because it is a telescoping bolt like a MPI 69. Extruded aluminum upper over the polymer CZ. I don't like polymer nor the barrel being held in by a clamshell of polymer. Every time I handled an Evo I left disappointed because it doesn't feel good, certainly not $700 good.
Adam Sullivan
That's why I built mine to my spec. I have a longer barrel with a shorter profile in the same handguard and it has 1/2-28 threads and 3 lug mound machined into it. The folding adapter allows a shorter profile than the collapsible brace while allowing a proper cheekweld. Here's the thing. It's a great backpack gun out of the box with just a brace, but the aftermarket is there....
Jayden Fisher
The fact that the handguard is just an extension of the reciever is a mark down for me. I like the modularity of scorpion handguards and barrels. I don't believe anyone 'likes' reciprocating charging handles as much as they tolerate and justify them. As far as the sights at least they're there. >from what I hear... Dropped.
Brandon Williams
Kek do you know the drop of 9mm past 100 yards?
Mason Morales
The person who said that on arf also owns B&T's and a EVO so I'm willing to take his word on it it.
Not significant enough to effect practical combat accuracy.
Kayden Gonzalez
What about weight? how much more does the scorpion weigh vs the AR pistol ? my pistol feels heavy i keep thinking the all poly scorpion would be more handy?
this was on sale for 699 the other day no brace still kicking myself
Ryder Adams
Its like 5 pounds out of the box but with my light, eotech, and aluminum handguard it gets a bit front heavy. Don't have a scale to weight it unfortunately.
Justin Mitchell
It was $630 from PSA two weeks ago
Adrian Powell
Seeing as the ARs reliability comes from it being a closed and sealed system; and this folding stock option leaves the entire rear of the bolt and buffer exposed to anything like dust, dropped tendies, cat hair, cigarette butts and lint; yes it most likely effects reliability.
Logan Jenkins
The next evolution in AR15s will be the elimination of the buffer system. Thus proving that the AR15 was a devolution of rifle design.
But I have no intention of getting a folding stock. I have one on my ak but am constantly swapping it on and off with a normal fixed stock.
Jayden Green
Nobody asked you did they
Noah Long
Has Franklin Armory started shipping binary triggers for the Scorpion yet? I'm actually trying to decide between a PTR-9ct and a CZ Scorpion, but the fact that I could get a CZ with a brace, a binary trigger, and maybe a Romeo 5 for the same price as the PTR is making it a really tempting option.
Lincoln Clark
What Glock PCC kit is that, and do they make one for the G20 in 10mm?
Connor Butler
I love AR-18's but honestly Daewoo did it right with the collapsing wire stock.
Jeremiah Williams
It was a direct response to me and my post... DI is king.
Grayson Cruz
Its a mechtech, and they do
Juan Kelly
I have one on an AR pistol what I swap 10.5" .223 and 7.5" .300blk uppers on that has one of these; my only failures on it are shooting subsonic ammo (without can) with the same bcg that the supers and .223 use short strokes. With a can, super .300blk, and 223 I've had no failures with it. About... 800 rounds so far through it.
Joshua Cruz
...that* I swap...
Also, I use a heavier spring with the .223. It's not essential, but I'd rather not beat everything up if it's not necessary.
Levi Lee
800 is not a confidemce inspiring number.
Wyatt Brown
At 100 yards 9mm drops 1 foot. It gets far worse very quickly from there.
Why would getting small amounts of shit in a noncritical area (behind the carrier) even matter... It's only when those things are in the lugs, gas system, etc that it matters.
Christian Green
>Didn't watch the video. Or IV88s video shooting a keltek sub2k at 400 yards with defensive ammo. It's not like there's a myriad of 9mm loadings of varying weights, shapes, and pressures or anything. You loks stupid making vague blanket statements like that.
Jordan Stewart
This. get an mp5 fag.
Isaiah Lee
>Just get something less reliable and harder to fix with more expensive parts Some people actually shoot their guns.
