>the FBI is dropping its crown jewel, the .40 S&W, for 9mm again >the FBI cites advancements in bullet technology make the 9mm "as good" as the larger common calibers >9mm again regains its seat at the table of defensive and duty ammunition But it still begs the question...does "as good" not also mean the other calibers aren't better with the same advancements in bullet technology too? .40 S&W and .45 ACP were already good at killing people (as good as pistol calibers get) so the new bullet tech means they perform better too. I think this move to 9mm is all about cost and not performance.
It's just a simple fact of life that a 124gr projectile will be at the ragged edge of its capabilities to keep up with a 180gr or 230gr projectile flying at the same or at faster speeds.
Fbi agents miss something like 3/4 shots without exaggerating depending on the year you cite. With the number of rounds fired per-gunfight having practically no bearing on their accuracy. The only law enforcement I have seen have a worse hit ratio on paper consistently is the nypd on bad years. So for them the capacity very very much matters. The majority of rounds fired have "no sight alignment" and the criminals generally have better accuracy. Imagine the hit ratio with .45.
Jack Phillips
Could that be because they have so many rounds though? 6 shots seemed to be perfectly adequate during the majority of the 20th century.
Christopher Lopez
>But it still begs the question...does "as good" not also mean the other calibers aren't better with the same advancements in bullet technology too? 40 and 45 haven't gotten the same advancements that 9mm has and they won't because they're not worth the cost and would only provide minimal improvement
Austin Roberts
>6 shots seemed to be perfectly adequate during the majority of the 20th century. Not if you can't aim worth a damn.
No surprise that a decorated marksman can do well with the larger caliber.
The FBI is saying most people with less training will put better shots on target with 9mm. They are probably correct.
Lucas Martinez
Makes sense
Adam Perry
Well they're all service calibers, within the same performance envelope relatively speaking.
Humans aren't pork cuts or oranges.
Asher Cook
>tfw Paul Harrel outdoes himself with his targets yet again
Samuel Hughes
>Well they're all service calibers, within the same performance envelope relatively speaking. If you watched the video you'd note that the 9mm barely made it to the target with enough energy while the .40 and .45 made it with just enough energy to spare. The 9mm has only become acceptable to the FBI again because of developments in bullet technology. 9mm still has the downside of not having as much energy as .40 or .45 ACP. It requires that bullet technology to be nearly as effective as .40 or .45 were decades ago.
I'm not saying 9mm is a slouch don't get me wrong, I carry 9mms and trust them with my life. But 9mm is not as powerful as .40 or .45 ACP. Those latter rounds have an EASIER time punching through flesh and bone.
Owen Peterson
I think he's implying that cops got lazy with marksmanship due to wonder 9's having so many bullets
Angel Cox
.40sw and .45acp are not more lethal than 9mm assuming each is using a comperable projectile, while 9mm allows for easier follow up shots, larger capacity and more training
Carson Long
>painting necessity as a virtue
Thomas Watson
Does he recommend Remington Green and White Box again?
Chase Stewart
>.40sw and .45acp are not more lethal than 9mm Better watch that Harrell video, bud
Thomas Rivera
I did, barrier blindness of specific projectile/barrel lengths combinations are not a measure of lethality.
Someone should send him some current production Speer G2 to test.
Brandon Hall
so basically they are treating the symptom instead of the actual disease?
why not invest in proper marksmanship training instead of spending a buttload of money to change the platform and the ammo used?
>our field officers hit 1 out of 4 shots >they need more shots so they can hit more >with the new caliber our officers hit 5 shots out of a 20 round mag hurr durr >just end up missing more shots, becoming an actual danger to society
shit seems retarded, im probably getting something wrong on account of english not being my first language.
Hunter Campbell
I'd send him some Speer G2 but Harrel has repeatedly stated that he doesn't like "hyper ammo" aka stuff you can't buy at your local wallyworld or LGS. Really his point is that they're all good calibers but 9mm is at its limit of capabilities while .40 and .45 are comfortably within their capabilities when it comes to defensive scenarios and penetration/expansion.
Asher Long
So he's a retard that makes videos for the internet and can't use it to buy ammo? Who the fuck listens to this guy, seriously? What is the appeal of this guy. He just talks out of his ass at the range and people treat his ramblings as the word of god.
Whatever caliber you pick, make sure you can shoot it. Pistol rounds suck at stopping people, period. .45 to the face and chest? Got back up. .40 to the spine, lungs, and face? Fuck you, still shooting.
I was making the point that its available at walmart in rebuttal to the user stating Paul 'huh?what?' Harrell doesn't use ammo not found in walmart. If you're not that guy then whatever i don't care.
Jose Powell
At my walmart i bought that for like $21 after tax, $30 is way too much
Nicholas Price
10mm is the most powerful round ever it blows 5.56 the fuck out
Xavier Gutierrez
10mm auto is a great pistol round. But after 35 years every military/police keeps ignoring it. I really do not understand that. 9mm this, 0.45 that, .40 there but no love for poor little 10mm.
Some police officers are women. And 10mm is expensive with the current amount of market support it gets. LEO agencies aren't going to band together to adopt 10mm just to get the price down.
Gavin Ramirez
State police and .357 Sig is about as close as you're going to get, I think. I know several ex-HiPos who love the stuff, but stop shooting it if they have to foot the bill themselves.
Ryan Flores
Because a lot of police don't shoot handguns all that much. Rifles are easy for them to become 'competent' with for their typical range they need it because they're shooting a light recoiling round and have optics. Unless they have a large interest in firearms most don't practice with handguns much at all so if they're just adequate with 9mm or 40 S&W why would the department switch them over to 10mm?
There was some video where a retired chief of police was saying that even in the 80's and 90's most policemen under his department were fairly bad shots with handguns and it only got worse in the 2000's when a lot of people started joining that had not ever even fired a firearm before. There's probably a few crackshots in most departments but the majority of them aren't at all.
William Flores
>>the FBI is dropping its crown jewel, the .40 S&W, for 9mm again This is so disingenuous. Four years ago, the same people who say this were saying that the FBI were a bunch of retards for using .40 in spite of the superior 9mm.
>the FBI cites advancements in bullet technology make the 9mm "as good" as the larger common calibers Also a lie. The reason for the switch was because of the large number of lady officers who can't handle .40 caliber handguns.
Cameron Adams
.40 offers marginal benefits on penetration while being larger and more expensive. There used to be better loadings for 9mm that would get rid of peoples negative view of the round, but they don’t make them anymore.
>According to FBI Special Agent Ray Cook, the current unit chief of the FBI’s Defensive Systems Unit, the bureau, which continuously tests various types of ammunition, began considering a return to the 9mm round in 2007 in part because of advances in ballistic technology.
>The new 9mm round —the 147-grain Speer Gold Dot G2 — is significantly more effective than what FBI agents carried into the field in 1986. According to Cook, the bullet has been rigorously tested and has received high marks in the FBI’s most important category for bullet selection: penetration.
>Cook says that the lighter the bullet, the faster the gun can “drive” the round into the target. For the FBI, that translates into 12 to 18 inches of penetration into the human body. The 9mm’s weight, Cook added, also increases an agent’s accuracy in a gunfight, according to the findings of a 2014 FBI report that was leaked online last year.
Angel Hall
Did Harrell fuck your mom?
Lucas Russell
>are not more lethal Said no paramedic or E.R. doctor, ever.
>t. Paramedic
Jonathan Hughes
>But it still begs the question...does "as good" not also mean the other calibers aren't better with the same advancements in bullet technology too? .40 S&W and .45 ACP were already good at killing people (as good as pistol calibers get) so the new bullet tech means they perform better too. The fatal flaw with this line of thinking is the assumption that better than good enough is actually better in all applications and instances. The reason 9mm was considered inferior to .45 ACP and .40 S&W wasn't because the extra energy or expansion of those rounds was stopping people noticeably quicker, it was simply because the 9mm loadings on the market at the time didn't always offer sufficient penetration under common circumstances. Now that 9mm rounds have been fine tuned to offer sufficient penetration for defensive use with expanding rounds all that the .40 and .45 acp offers over it are increased expansion while also offering adequate penetration or lowered(perhaps comparable) expansion with increased penetration. Contrary to what some people tend to believe the actual value of a marginally bigger hole has just about always been debated when it comes to handgun rounds, and while people have generally agreed that with identical placement a bigger hole *should* be better, these benefits never seem to materialize in any clearly recognizable or measurable manner in the real world. OTOH that second virtue may very well be of serious importance in some fringe cases, a properly tailored projectile in .45 or .40 should be always take more intermediate barriers to become ineffective and perhaps be more effective against larger animals. Although frontal area also plays a critical role in these situations and may even balance out the mass difference in some situations.
Jonathan Williams
No he fucked my favorite saharan underwater basket weaving leaderboard.
Hunter Allen
FBI agents shoot as much as your average Jow Forums poster (barely at all), technically 40 S&W would be better for this, because the training ammo shoots at the same level of cartridge pressure as carry ammo, while 9mm cartridge raises in pressure 10% to 25% depending on the ammo, this variance in recoil impulse can make a novice shooter miss more more so than even just too much recoil
Aiden Martin
>9milimemer so good now because muh superior round technology >specifically the gold dot G2 >round so bad it shits the bed like clockwork in third party testing, leaving people scratching their head as to how this is supposed to be an "improved" gold dot >quickly and quietly decide to go with hornady critical duty instead FBI confirmed for being worse at ballistics testing than the average guntuber.
As far as im aware while firearms selection is something he believed to be an issue in his campfire shooting he really hasn't hinted at ammo being a problem in his personal cases. He does talk about harold fish in one video on 10mm but concludes that ammo(caliber really) selection wasn't a critical issue, the DA was just trying to boot strap together a shitty case and was throwing everything he could at him. IIRC he only specifically mentions ammo types like RIP or mixed magazines being likely problems post shooting. Id agree on the former but the latter seems like a rather dubious claim given his reasoning. Frankly i wouldn't personally worry about anything that's in common usage like Federal, hornady, speer, or winchesters LEO lines. I could see something like OG black talons, RIP, Zmax, or lehigh meme rounds coming up if you find yourself in a harold fish esq position though.
Landon White
The fact that not a single person in the history of the US justice system has been prosecuted with the ammo used being the detetmining factor proves hes a fucking dipshit who doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.
Daniel Thomas
Why is .40 more expensive than 9mm? If it was so common among police forces you'd think the price would be lower.
doesnt mean ambulance chasers turned prosecutors use it to put you in a court room
Jonathan Richardson
Police aren't the majority and not all of them use .40.
Anthony Richardson
Eh, sometimes they do Ok(~13" of penetration) but they seem to fall in the 9-11" range pretty frequently too depending on barrel length and how much a particular round shed it's weight or expanded. Just go out there and check out the multiple videos on the round, results are all over the place compared to newer bullets. Reliability of good performance is a very important factor IMO. One of the major issues with that generation of ammo in general was a high rate of failures to expand, over expansions, and occasionally ideal performance. Of course all of this is without getting intermediate barriers involved, which are a pretty BFD for LEOs.
Dominic Perez
His point was that even though it probably wouldn't hold up in court, it could be used to put you into a courtroom, and your goal should be to avoid court if at all possible.
Ethan Nguyen
Hi-shok, not hydrashock
Isaac Cruz
Statistically speaking, unless youre in your own home and the intruder is carrying a weapon and threatening you verbally with his last breath as the police arrive, it's going to court. Your ammo has literally not a single thing to do with the matter.
Jason Reyes
If you don't want to go to court just let yourself be murdered/raped/robbed. Court should be the absolute last thing on your mind when DEFENDING YOUR LIFE. Survive using the best tools you can get your hand on, then hire the most expensive lawyer in your state. End. Of. Story.
Blake Reed
so why the fuck you buy some meme bullshit ass round vs gold dots or Cor-bon
Colton Reyes
iirc the majority of them use 9mm.
Christian Rivera
Because I'm smart enough to know that Federal HST is the goat jhp.
Luke White
I know, and the first part of my post is specifically in reference to 115gr +P+ hi-shoks, the so called illinois state police load, or 9BPLE. Only the second to last sentence was talking about hi-shok, hydrashock, or other designs of the time. Fyi you're not replying to me anymore but some other user, as you saw in my previous post using gold dots or other good performing mainstream rounds is exactly what i recommended and was pointing out shouldn't be thrown in with true meme rounds like RIP.
Jayden Morgan
Exactly
Tyler Thomas
I know we always like to talk about bigger cartridges, but the other direction is an option too.
Look up some tests on it and you'll realize why it isn't.
Jack Rivera
Unless it's moving redonculously fast, it's still not better than a .22 rifle.
Angel Perez
>PDW round designed to defeat armor >cant even buy the armor piercing rounds
why
Josiah Taylor
Because it's Belsh cuck state rules manifested in the organizational culture of the company.
Austin Hernandez
Thats not the why he was asking. He was asking why you would even propose something so stupid.
Brody Hall
fucks sake when will somebody finally neck down 10mm or neck down and shorten 10mm to 6.8-7.2mm and finally end this whole "all handgun rounds are the same" charade. Recoil would be manageable(particularly with a comp) and ballistics would be 5.56 SBR tier.
Gabriel King
Be the change you want to see in the world. In the meantime I'll still be shooting 9mm without a worry in the world.
Henry Gonzalez
>1911 instantly jams kek >7 unexpended cartridges in the clip >clip REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Dylan Perez
somebody sorta just did that BRNO FK, its slightly longer cut down (or just swaged from being necked down) .30 rem brass necked to 7.5
Daniel Torres
Unfortunately the company making it is shit tier, also its a little on the heavy/low vel side IMO. much prefer to see a 65-75gr projectile at 2300-2500 fps. Heck, .357 sig can already scrape the low end of that out of a 6" bbl.
Cameron Roberts
.960 rowland also exists, its 9x23 loaded with stubbier bullets so it fits the OAL of 9x19, it makes major power factor without blowing up your gun
Elijah Baker
Oh, I know, go ahead and look into the actual performance of the round. Not sure if it's just who loads it or what but it's literally moving a same weight bullet slower out of a 6" bbl than .37 Sig can manage out of a 4". We're talking maybe 1400fps with a 115gr load here IIRC.
its more so about how your getting 600 foot lbs out of a 9mm, 400 ftlb and 600 ftlb are two different worlds
85 grains not as good as 115 grain
Ryan Powell
>has been prosecuted Pffft. Successfully prosecuted vs prosecuted doesn' tmatter. You could get fucked based on the cirucmstances.
Angel Garcia
>Arguing about energy What matters is expansion and 9mm is fine. .40 and .45 obviously out do it but there's a capacity and modest re oil trade off
Grayson Lee
What the fuck are you even saying?
Michael White
That's an age old Jow Forums meme that energy doesn't matter, a misrepresntation of the argument that energy kills. If your bullet doesn't have enough E N E R G Y to penetrate and expand it isn't good enough. 9mm is just barely good enough for that. .40 and .45 do that easily.
That's why 9mm isn't as good.
Aiden Ortiz
>its more so about how your getting 600 foot lbs out of a 9mm, 400 ftlb and 600 ftlb are two different worlds What? im clearly not limiting myself to 9mm or overly concerned with muh ftlbs.
Matthew Wood
The FBI switching to 9mm has less to do with 9mm being good, and more with the FBI being a bunch of bitch wrists and women.
Logan Morales
10mm is best mm.
Joshua Ross
155.
Ian Cox
>get armor penetrating bullets >HURR DURR WHY IS IT WORSE AGAINST FLESH IT SUCKS
Brandon Rodriguez
The recoil is too much for women and manlets.
Landon Ward
pasta fit for this thread enjoy =)
45acp 230gr RN 905ft/sec and 418ft/lbs at muzzle 881ft/sec and 396ft/lbs at 25yd 864ft/sec and 381ft/lbs at 50yd 847ft/sec and 366ft/lbs at 75yd
9mm Luger 125gr RN 1100ft/sec and 333ft/lbs at muzzle 1052ft/sec and 305ft/lbs at 25yd 1012ft/sec and 282ft/lbs at 50yd 977ft/sec and 263ft/lbs at 75yd
.40s&w 180gr JHP 1000ft/sec and 400ft/lbs at muzzle 971ft/sec and 376ft/lbs at 25yd 944ft/sec and 356ft/lbs at 50yd 920ft/sec and 338ft/lbs at 75yd
10mm Auto 180gr JHP 1200ft/sec and 575ft/lbs at muzzle 1141ft/sec and 521ft/lbs at 25yd 1092ft/sec and 476ft/lbs at 50yd 1050ft/sec and 440ft/lbs at 75yd
.38spl 158gr SWC 1000ft/sec and 351ft/lbs at muzzle 965ft/sec and 326ft/lbs at 25yd 934ft/sec and 306ft/lbs at 50yd 906ft/sec and 288ft/lbs at 75yd
.357mag 158gr JHP 1300ft/sec and 593ft/lbs at muzzle 1242ft/sec and 541ft/lbs at 25yd 1190ft/sec and 497ft/lbs at 50yd 1144ft/sec and 459ft/lbs at 75yd
.41mag 210gr JSP 1300ft/sec and 788ft/lbs at muzzle 1235ft/sec and 711ft/lbs at 25yd 1177ft/sec and 646ft/lbs at 50yd 1127ft/sec and 592ft/lbs at 75yd
.44mag 240gr JHP 1300ft/sec and 900ft/lbs at muzzle 1242ft/sec and 822ft/lbs at 25yd 1189ft/sec and 754ft/sec at 50yd 1143ft/sec and 696ft/lbs at 75yd
Juan Wilson
>MY TICONDAS
Mason Wright
>m-muh overpriced .22 magnum
Wyatt Moore
All of those will still reliably kill someonen yet people will still argue semantics
Ayden White
iirc, the US military standard for an effective projectile to cause an incapacitating wound is 67ft/lbs it really comes down to a bullshit argument that gets run around in circles training is 90% of handgun fighting, 9% gun, and 1% cartridge
