ISR

Suppressors are completely legal in Michigan my dude

Blowbacks dominance in PCCs always struck me as odd. Sure it's simple, and easy to manufacture. But it produces a disproportionate amount of recoil, due to the heavy bolt necessary. Alternative operating mechanisms could also shave some weight. A 4.5lb PCC wouldn't be unreasonable.

I always thought recoil operation, or some sort of gas delayed blowback would be much better.

Yeah but you still need to go through the NFA process. The hearing protection act would have cut that out... but then parkland happened.

Read

Most people would still rather build an AR and suppress it later than to wait six extra months for the NFA paperwork on an integrally suppressed barrel.

And you get a suppressor that is stuck to a single gun.

.300 Win Mag, or one of its cousins.

Integrated suppressors are always more quiet than a standard suppressor though, pretty much the only reason I'm after it

bullshit. Just stop talking about stopping power. A 5.56 at close range doing over 2,500 feet per second will obliterate flesh. A good defensive bullet will break up and dump all its muzzle energy in the target. It's when the velocity drops below about 2,400 feet per second and you are shooting steel core ammo that it will "ice pick" and just punch a .22 sized hole in your target.

I own a Scorpion. I love it. Nearly 2,000 rounds through it and no malfunction of any kind. The stock trigger sucks though. I got the CZ custom shop trigger upgrade which is kind of expensive but transforms the gun. Gives it ~4lb trigger pull compared to the stock 10lb and the pull distance is like 1/3 as long as the stock trigger pull as well. Both rapid fire and precision shots are easier.

But dropping a $220 trigger into a $800 gun is a questionable choice for some. I personally have no regrets. The stock trigger is the only real complaint I had about the scorpion and it fixed that.

I also own a 12.5" barrel AR and I choose the scorpion for home defense. The muzzle blast of the 12.5" AR is intense, permanent hearing damage loud without ear protection. Meanwhile 9mm out of a 7.75" barrel scorpion is even more quiet than out of a 9mm handgun. Still fucking loud without hearing protection, but not blow your ears out loud.

Don't get me wrong. I still love the AR as well. But the scorpion is what I keep beside my bed folded in my nightstand. It has a Romeo5 red dot and a weaponlight.

I think 9mm simply lacks the pressure. 9mm luger peak pressure is 35,500 psi and +P is 38,500. Meanwhile something like .223 is 55,000 psi and 5.56 is slightly hotter than .223. Another 20,000 psi to work with.

lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm

pic related. This shows the exploded view of the gas operated MPX and you can see the gas system of the MPX diverts gas literally at the chamber. It basically needs to start diverting gas the moment the round fires in order to get enough gas to cycle. Meanwhile most gas operated rifles let the bullet get 80% down the barrel before they even begin diverting gas and they still are often "overgassed" . If you had a gas port on a 5.56 placed like the MPX gas port it would be horribly overgassed, unless you just had a tiny pinhole gas port or something.

I totally agree a gas operated PCC would be awesome in concept and recoil much less than blowback. But it must be very difficult to do. All these different companies must go with blowback 9mm for a reason. Especially all the blowback 9mm ARs. I imagine they would stick with the AR gas system if it was possible.

Attached: IMG_6516.png (1380x1349, 1.19M)

Recoil operation (like a handgun) is still on the table though. Only real disadvantage is precision, though a 4-5MOA PCC is still plenty practical.

Wasn't there a company making DeLisle conversions for the NFA market? I think they had a .45 semi option at one point.

ACP has the advantage of being designed for subsonic from the outset, whereas with 9mm you have to choose between proper expansion and proper suppression.

I've seen people try to bag deer with .223 at about 200 yards and unless they scored a headshot or a direct hit to the jugular or vitals, the wound would just close up behind the exit hole and wouldn't leave any significant blood trail. .223/5.56 was made to either take a target at range or penetrate light body armor or cover, relying on the interruption on initial impact to slow the bullet down to where it would cause greater surface area expansion in the bullet and still pack concussion. 5.56 against bare flesh, especially at close range, is more like a laser coming from a cannon.

I'm sure a gas operated 9mm with integral suppression is more than possible, but the best aspect of it would be how much more quiet it would be yet. Blowbacks are always louder than gas operated arms just because of that extra gas that blows out of the open chamber, but a gas operated 9mm with integrated suppression, coupled with subsonic ammo would probably be the most quiet option out there, beaten only by, say, a bolt action .22 with integrated suppression with subsonic ammo. Personal thought, at least.

I fucking love the raw concussion of .45, the only downfall is that it's like chucking a rock at a 900 feet per second or so. You can't reach long ranges like that.

There are hollow point and soft tip 5.56 bullets that are made to expand just like a pistol hollow point in flesh. Bullet choice is key. At close range when the velocity is above 2400 fps a short barrel AR and expanding ammo will absolutely fuck somebody up.

Attached: 6dad99be-fd10-47b7-83ec-01e17c57ed9e_zpse9aa9a2a.jpg (1024x748, 79K)

That's very true, FMJ's are just not practical in that case, especially as anti- personnel. Does G2 make any sort of RIP ammo in 5.56 or .223 yet?

Would something like a glass pane or a reasonable solid like that interfere with expansion at all, or throw off trajectory? That is assuming that hard surface impact would cause some sort of initial expansion

CZ just came out with a "reflex" suppressor for the scorpion that has the suppressor can go back over the barrel to add volume to the can without adding length on the end of the gun. It's a standard 1/2x28 thread. Available in stainless or titanium. I see no reason why it wouldn't also be able to fit on a sig MPX. A sig MPX running that CZ suppressor is basically exactly what you are dreaming of. It would only cost like $3K before you start buying spare mags and a red dot etc...

pic related. cutaway view of the CZ suppressor I'm talking about. It is meant to fit the Scorpion micro perfectly so that the back end of the can butts perfectly up against the receiver of the scorpion and there is no wasted space under the handguard. It should work on a MPX with a little longer barrel so there is still room for the gas system of the MPX like the 6.5" version.

Attached: CZ-Scorpion-EVO-III-Micro-S2-Reflex-9mm-SMG-PDW-Pistol-SBR-with-CZ-S2-Ti-Reflex-Silencer-Sound-Suppr (2579x1934, 766K)

Are CZ parts interchangable with AR parts like that? Never looked into the Scorpion yet

The FBI recently had a custom soft tip 5.56 designed for them that is "barrier blind" as they call it so it can pass through light barriers like glass and drywall or a cardoor and still expand reliably. They call it FBIT3 or XM556SBCT3.

It isn't as accurate at longer ranges but that's not what it is meant for. It's intentionally a CQB tactical bullet.

Sounds expensive lol

what's quiet about a semi automatic action spewing hot gas everywhere?

It has no relation to the AR platform. But the CZ suppressor I am talking about has 1/2x28 threads which are the most common these days. Although apparently sig is gay and uses some oddball left handed thread pattern on the MPX. But a custom thread job usually isn't too expensive on a barrel.

I think the MPX with a "reflex" style over the barrel suppressor is basically the only option to fulfill OP's dream AR style, 9mm, gas operated, integrally suppressed gun desire. At least it is all I personally know of.

MPX starts at about $1,800
To fit the supressor I'm talking about you would probably have to fit the 6.5" barrel with is like a $500 upgrade. Then the suppressor costs like $600 in stainless and $930 in titanium, plus $200 tax stamp. So ~$3,100 going with the cheaper stainless can, before any sort of red dot or spare mags or ammo are considered.

Not cheap, but it is possible to build OP's dream gun.

About $0.75 a round. It is for sale to the public. Nothing crazy. But not "cheap".

targetsportsusa.com/federal-lake-city-556x45mm-nato-ammo-62-grain-tactical-bonded-soft-point-xm556sbct3-p-78478.aspx

Hot gas isn't going much for anywhere, there's a gun fart can on there for a reason

Do they make it fit for .223 pressure loads? Or do I have it backwards? If I remember right, .223 packs more pressure than a 5.56, so the 5.56 has the chance of not cycling the action if used in a .223

You tryna get your dick sucked? That kind of help usually gets your dick sucked.

5.56 has more pressure. And yes they do make a similar 5.56 can. $1,300, titanium. It goes back over the barrel 3" so there needs to be at least 3" of barrel before the gas block in order for it to fit. It would not fit my 12.5" AR pistol.

cz-usa.com/product/cz-ti-reflex/

No I'm just a CZ scorpion owner who has been dreaming of this suppressor ever since it was announced and I considered the MPX before I bought the scorpion. So I already knew most of that info and had most of the links bookmarked already.

So theoretically speaking, a .223 might fail to cycle the action, but would be much more quiet yet?

God bless ya man.

Why would .223 fail? Most ARs use both just fine. 5.56 is technically more powerful, but it isn't much. 10% at the very most. And it really depends what exact bullets you are comparing. There are dozens of loads for .223 and 5.56 so you can't really say exactly how much more powerful 5.56 is unless you start talking specific bullets. But technically 5.56 has a little higher pressure. You can shoot .223 out of a 5.56, but you aren't supposed to shoot 5.56 out of a ,223 gun. Yet people do it all the time and the guns don't blow up.

I suppose almost anything as acceptable as long as you stay away from those damn Tulammo loads lol