Competition shooting and preparedness

>There's always that one guy.
is this supposed to be disagreement or something?

Obviously tactics are going to be different between a competition and a gun fight but there are elements that are definitely beneficial. I'd say at a minimum moving and shooting, shooting at moving targets, and shooting with an elevated heart rate are some. It's never going to replicate the stress of being in a deadly force situation but it will at least push you past a comfort level that one would have at a bench rest or another stationary shooting position on a static target.

as mentioned above, *combat* training

there are boatloads of military/swat/police/switched on civilian training resources in the United States. where are you from user? i can help you find one thats right for you
in the midwest we have 3 big ones within driving distance from me

>push you past a comfort level that one would have at a bench rest or another stationary shooting position
but what if my comfort level is onna couch with the playstation controller in my hands

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i agree this is better than nothing, 10 rds a year type shit, but not as good as taking real force on force/cqb/lowlight classes from reputable instructors

Any time behind the trigger is going to make you better. USPSA and 3Gun will teach you how to move fast, shoot on the move, and handle your firearms.

Plus it's fun and you meet nice people.

Not OP, but Wisconsin here. This is relevant to my interests. Could you tell me more about this?

Deep south friend.

better than nothing but doesnt equate to being ready for a gunfight. gunfighting is a frame of mind, cqb is a frame of mind, target shooting is a frame of mind. if you've 3guned for years and someone breaks in your home, how are your 3gun skills going to help you acquire the target, assess the threat, control how visible you are, choose cover/concealment, shoot in the dark, etc
you guys are acting like defensive/offensive shooting is all about guns and pulling triggers. in a gunfight a gun is only one of many tools.
tactics are more important to learn if you actually give a fuck about preparing for shtf, and its roughly the same price to learn as it is to get involved in higher grade competition shooting, especially if you take classes.

what are the outfits in the midwest that offer combat training?
where in the midwest?

forge tactical in Ohio, john chapman
Spartan training near you i think, possibly badlands tactical
you'd wanna start with like Pistol 1 or so, and they train from the ground up, then take like rifle 1 and then pistol 2, lowlight pistol, then maybe cqb 1 or something like that. itll be intimidating at first, but everyone is there to learn, and as long as you take what the instructors say to heart and have a good handle on the basics of gun safety, youll come out much more prepared to defend your life with firearms after every class.
I think a lot of people don't go because the classes are mostly cops and LE, but they are usually thrilled to have dedicated learners from the civilian world
go on their website, send them some emails, ask whats covered.

>but doesnt equate to being ready for a gunfight
>you guys are acting like defensive/offensive shooting is all about guns and pulling triggers
no we're not, you're attacking a strawman, no one is claiming this. The op says
>Do you feel better prepared
and people are arguing that their faster followup shots/reloads from competition make them feel atleast slightly more prepared. No one is pretending that 3gun is direct combat training.

Fuckin saved. Thanks Jow Forumsomrade, I owe you one.

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armed alabama
lighthorse tactical
mississippi combat tactical training
4g tactical gun training
lots of them in florida
theyre especially common around denser cities where there is a greater need for well-trained swat teams and inner cities. so in medium-bad suburbs of big cities, these places thrive

Primary and Secondary had a whole episode on this crap. I can summarize in two sentences, what took them three hours: the people who compete in structured shooting sports have better gun handling skills, are more accurate, and react better under pressure than tactical timmies.

youtube.com/watch?v=WG1tXWHhQwQ

If you think going to Yeager's tactical timmy class once a quarter is better than competing every weekend - well, good luck.

my mistake. it just seemed like people were
>complacent
with this degree of training
>only
and that was what i was trying to get across
not that you guys were claiming anything, but just
>settling

yeah it is settling, I just wish classes weren't so expensive

if you take the class, post about it, let people near you that are into guns know how much it helped, get the word out man, its the best thing the gun community can do imho.
much welcome bros/k/i

Literally fucking who

It saddens me that someone as based as you doesn't live closer. Thank you friend.

ill just relay that to the guys who trained seal team 3 and 1 and see if they should train in 3gun instead

i shoot with guys who have nods and suppressors and know how to use them, they train just as much but they're not beating a clock, theyre fighting for their lives
literally what the fuck is this tactical timmy shit?
/real training/ is real training, its the same shit the tier 1 operators do, the fuck makes you think 3gun has anything on them?

Mostly agree with this, but as someone who competes I disagree with the notion that they are completely mutually exclusive. It's absolutely true that competition CAN give you many bad habits (3-gunners leaving their rifles on fire for extended periods of time while sometimes pointed in questionable places being a pet peeve), but if you enter the sport/game with a certain level of self awareness there are many, many skills you can build by competing. Outside of learning the most effective and efficient ways to handle and shoot your guns (desu an overrated aspect of war/combat), there are huge takeaways in learning how to best move your body, being able to process and act on visual information, building plans and managing stress. Yes, it's not at all the stress you'll experience in a gunfight, but to some extent stress is stress.

FWIW I've almost always also competed with my carry and duty guns, mostly because I want to build proficiency with them but also because most race guns look really goofy.

Okay what kind of training are they doing? Are they shooting sim rounds at each other?

fuckin A amigo

>nods and suppressors and know how to use them

So they can read a manual.

> they train just as much but they're not beating a clock,

So uh, how do they know if they are improving, need improvement, or are losing their edge? Surely they are using timers to measure things.

Hardmode: south florida

Forgive any mistakes I may have made, I'm not super lucid right now

That being said, I absolutely encourage people to take a course in shooting/"""gunfighting""" by a reputable trainer. Competition is more often than not a place when you refine the skills you already have, and is far from being the best environment to learn new ones (because of the bad habits mentioned above)

>Competition is more often than not a place when you refine the skills you already have, and is far from being the best environment to learn new ones

That's not true. You can start out being total crap at competition, and if you PRACTICE on your grip, draw, sight picture, trigger control, etc you will get better.

Hell, just go get Ben Stoeger's books and watch some of Max Michele's videos on YT. This shit ain't hard. You don't need to pay someone to get "gunfighting" training.

yes! UTM has bolts for exactly that, its common because it allows people to run the same loadout minus the bolt

>disagreement
No it is an observation of there always being one guy who has to counter signal against a entire post. Don't get me wrong I'm sure that the discord members are highly intelligent and safety orientated individuals. This is not to say that taking 500 round to a park/land and shooting at paper from 5-50m is not a good idea it is. However the fluid movements made in multiple gun/multi target matches do not incorporate some real world problems. Such as malfunction drills to name and uneven or cluttered terrain to name another this in its self is a safety issue. The other poster mentioned "modifications" which is something I am inclined to agree with. People at these matches are running heavily modified pistols shooting low recoiling reloads and skeletonized AR's that would choke if a leaf landed int them. Even mentioning the "timers" used in these completions can be detrimental in creating muscle memory while you are racing against yourself and the timer.
All that said some training is better than no training.

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theyre being watched by trainers, vets, active swat or undeployed but enlisted military men with years of combat experiences.
do you have any idea how hard it is to move and shoot with nods bro? its not something you just read in a manual
trolling?
have you looked at any of the companies mentioned above?
you can get trained by the same guys who train the cops and the military tier one sf

its like you're denying that there are people who know how to gunfight well and are able to teach people...
the fucks wrong with you?

miami firearms training
Israeli tactical school
tampa gunfights
and i think spartan tactical has a branch in the area

seconded, I'm from south florida and want to practice ipsc shooting. Which I could just get into a WMA and larp but they're all run by communists.

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> However the fluid movements made in multiple gun/multi target matches do not incorporate some real world problems. Such as malfunction drills to name and uneven or cluttered terrain to name another

Uh. I have seen tons of malfunctions in competition environments, and you get reeeeeeallly good at clearing them and continuing to shoot.

> uneven or cluttered terrain to name another

What are you talking about, competitions like USPSA and 3GN have shit littered all over the course - walls, barrels, tight squeezes.

so why doesnt the armed forces of the US just have their recruits read books and watch youtube videos dickweed?

> you can get trained by the same guys who train the cops

With the exception of Bob Vogel and Max Michele (or any of the other Army shooting team guys who do USPSA or 3GN) - most active duty law and military are not good shots and when you put them in a competition they are usually down with the D class shooters.

What are nods?

exactly
timing isnt everything, there's exposure, cover, its better to wait to take a shot, and to know when and when not to take a shot than it is to brush through everything
there has not yet even been any mention of how to identify friend/foe, how does 3gun/competition prepare you for that
again, its better than nothing, but can develop bad habits, and isnt a substitute for real training

>why doesnt the armed forces of the US just have their recruits read books

> What are the United States Army Field Manuals

lowest common denominator training.

ironic that the picture in your post is an Army Special Forces veteran and USPSA Limited GM who said he learned so much more about shooting when he started competing well into his SF career.

>I'm from south florida and want to practice ipsc shooting.

There are a ton of IPSC/USPSA clubs in south florida

>ironic that the picture in your post is an Army Special Forces veteran and USPSA Limited GM

Tha's Keanu Reeves in the picture.

but youre training to deal with all of this from a strictly onesided state of affairs
you dont see those obstacles as cover, you see them as obstacles. its a different world
like its okay that you do competition shit, thats fine, but dont pretend youre john wick because you can shoot 500 targets in 30 seconds.
you'd be killed in a real gunfight user

you don't need to be a sub-moa shooter to survive and win a gunfight, accuracy is relative. can you hit a mansized target in lowlight when he has a gun on you?

i've yet to go to an action pistol/3gun match that didn't have noshoots of one form or another.

Oh I thought it was Sam Hyde.

You're thinking of Frank Proctor

bravocompanymfg.com/gunfighters/frank_proctor.php

nvgs
night vision
Nighttime Optical Devices--nods

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notice the word "just"
you intentionally misconstrued what i said
you make it sound like only books and only videos are sufficient, they are not, and especially not if focusing on competition shooting

well there goes my ID skills.

thought it was Frank Proctor

yeah. just saw bearded dude from behind and kinda looked like him.

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>you'd be killed in a real gunfight user

See that's the tactical timmy shit that is complete bullshit. The meme of;

> hurr don't do competition, stuff you learn there will get you killed in the streets

Fucking bullshit.

>can you hit a mansized target in lowlight when he has a gun on you?

On demand I can draw from holster and hit a man sized target with 2 shots in probably 1.5 seconds, out to about 25 yards, based on the practice i've done as part of just getting good at USPSA classifiers (where draw from holster and shooting fast is the point). I know GMs that can probably do it in under a second easy.

Doing competition means that you can deliver high speed and high accuracy, in adverse circumstances, on demand.

Bless

>you dont see those obstacles as cover, you see them as obstacles.

Then go do IDPA where you have to shoot from cover

well maybe there is some degree of skill you've picked up, but it would still benefit you to learn from professional gunfighters if you plan to use that in shtf, as the thread was framed originally

and of course there are dark stages in competition, particularly in indoor matches.

>the goalposts have reached terminal velocity

black knight squadron is a good book if you're into training, gear, and want to read a super realistic book about an EMP and its aftermath on people who carry guns everyday

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What competition teaches you:
>trigger control
>accuracy
>reloads
>malfunction clearing under stress
>efficiency of movement
>how to do everything under an increased heart rate (if the stage design means you have to move a lot)
>how to shoot off barricades (if the stage designs force you to)

What competition doesn't teach you:
>how to clear rooms
>how to move to better positions
>how to scan for threats and stay aware

I could go into other minutia of combat shooting if you want to get really technical, but the biggest difference is movement in competition is different.

BUT you would have to be a total retard to think that standing in the open and doing quad loads on your gamer shotgun with a 50" magazine tube is anything realistic. I really doubt any competition shooters think this.

The reality is competition shooting is all about SHOOTING skills. This overlaps the combat world obviously, but doesn't cover the more important things that keep you alive.

Anybody with a fuctioning brain will know that they should get real training from good people, and then shoot at local competitions using the gear and guns you would use in real life, and try to do things a little more realistically.

And for what it's worth, ask any SF type guy who got into competition shooting and they'll tell you it's a great way to train your shooting skills.

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you're still coming in second every time to a conditioned swat/tier 1 operator every time, and it is possible to train with the same guys who train those guys...
but i will concede you have picked up some skills from competition shooting
is that fair user?
you're not the best, but far from the worst

Just because cops have access to training doesn't mean they persue it.

i'm in North Carolina, near Raleigh. there are Team guys in basically every USPSA match. they're good, but i've seen them get DQ'd and I haven't seen one get HOA or win their division over a competition-only shooter. nothing any of the Team dudes have done have made them stand out vs the hordes of B-M shooters at any given weekend. they do tend to roll in with Peltors and are a LOT buffer/better runners.

>exactly
Thanks.
But does it consider what your backstop is? What is behind the target? No it doesn't, yes you may be shooting a small exposed square simulating a head behind a hostage however you will be staring at the target with tunnel vision. I'm not saying it isn't good simulation however that is what it is. Everything with this sport(shooting) is heavily influenced by the safety of all participating. I'll say it again also some training is better than no training.

Alot of local gun ranges run whats called 2 gun, so 3 gun with out the crazy ass shotgun. I have done it a few times. It's at a club level though.

Mountains of NC, any chance you could help me out? The closest 3pers are 2 hours away.

then again, when your local match has Chris Tilley, Todd Jarrett, etc. and you tend to have a GM on every squad, it's probably a bit unfair.

>But does it consider what your backstop is? What is behind the target?

> you're still coming in second every time to a conditioned swat/tier 1 operator every time

LOL no. I'm losing to GMs in production division and super seniors in Open who are just fucking good at what they do.

Now, there is ONE guy I shoot with who beats me who is either active duty or is a recent vet - but he's a total gamer like me and shooting open division - and he's good, and it's not because of military training - it's because he practices and wants to win at this game.

Very true, and I think it's a shame - but I understand why - they've got a lot of stuff they're supposed to know and be responsible for. Firearms training is only one part of the whole deal.

NRA rule - "Know your target and what is behind it" - so that's not exclusive to tactical timmies and military training.

>Alot of local gun ranges run whats called 2 gun, so 3 gun with out the crazy ass shotgun. I have done it a few times. It's at a club level though.

Yeah, I do agree with Ken Hackathorn and Karl from Inrange that 3Gun, the shotgun has an outsize impact on overall results.

>Jerry Miculek comes home to find a man standing behind his daughter Lena
>he has his arm around her neck and is pointing a gun at her head
>Jerry, having no tactical experience, reverts to the only thing he knows how to do with a gun
>draws his Glock 19 from concealment and makes a clean shot between the man's eyes in less than 1.5 seconds
>but he didn't check what was behind his target!
>bullet goes through and kills his entire neighborhood
Wow you're right.

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Grandpa Jerrey would do it with his revolver and probably do it in about .5 from a draw - that guy is just a machine.

fake news.

it would be a S&W revolver, not a Glock

grinds my gears that UML rules bans bimetal boolits, i just want to shoot my ak and my slavshit ammo at a match

I think the reloads and efficiency of movement aren't valid in the case of someone who is competing with the gear in your pic as nobody carries that way irl.

Not trying to he weird, but where do you shoot, I'm in NC and I really want to get into 2 gun but no one around me hosts shit. I could care less about SHTF, I just want to shoot my funz.

From 500 yards no less

>with out the crazy ass shotgun
>Yeah, I do agree with Ken Hackathorn and Karl from Inrange that 3Gun, the shotgun has an outsize impact on overall results.

It sucks when you have guys quad loading and filling their 15 round tubes faster than most people on Jow Forums can reload an AK and you're trying to use your HD mossberg with a side saddle and a Cali Competition works stripper caddy. In my opinion, quad loader caddies should place you in open division, where you have to compete with detachable mag fed shotguns. Also place limits on how long your magazine tube can be if you're not in open division. To like 6 or 8 rounds dependant on division.

Yeah it wasn't really used as an example, just a random picture in my folder of gun chicks. 3 gun shotgun is the most gamer part of the sport and hold the least amount of bearing on real life tacticool shootan. It used to be a bit more realistic, but people started goind crazy with their magazine tubes when they found out you can make them 10 feet long and still work, and when quad loading became a thing.

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I used to shoot about 5,000 rounds a month @ A&M and did all the competition stuff I could around texas when I was in school.

Turned down and chambered barrels in the machine shop on campus, put together rifles and reloaded on a dillon 650 in a buddies garage.

Lots of the Corps of Cadets shooters were actual military going to school on hazelwood and gi bill. I actually brought this question up to them, many of whom were combat vets.

TLDR: Their answer was something along the lines of, "training for competition will make you really, really, really good...at shooting, that's it."

Even with movement behind barricades or along a course of fire, you're not developing combat skills. In competition you simply move, and move, and move. The targets dont really move, and they dont shoot back.

In any "real-life" situation, the other person is rarely party to their own execution, they will react to you and your presence. In as much as 3 gun teaches you to move, combat teaches you not to.

The go-go-go nature of 3 gun makes its shooters extremely skilled and proficient in shooting and "situational awareness" but paper isnt going to shoot back.

If you have someone who's trained and disciplined for force-force combat AND has their shooting ability heightened you'll end up with an extremely capable soldier.

All those retarded jihadi's sperging out on liveleak are terrible terrible shots but semi-effective soldiers, why might that be? The videos of them wasting ammo are on the front page but the videos of them slinking through enemy lines and tactical mag dumping into preoccupied positions is enlightening really.

Fine motor reflexes aren't going to be readily available when huge CC's of adrenaline hits your system. While competition tends to be stress inducing, its not the same kind of stressor, in that regard you're training the wrong skill set for when you have to "activate" and simply react.

>In my opinion, quad loader caddies should place you in open division, where you have to compete with detachable mag fed shotguns.

I'm not sure. I don't shoot 3 Gun (too busy with USPSA) and I have a VEPR-12, and to be honest if you can quad load I don't think you should be punished for that skill and be sent to open division.

I mean it's a legit skill, being able to quad load. I can't do it, but I sure as hell respect it.

>Jerry Miculek comes home to find a man standing behind his daughter Lena
And does nothing since she cheated on her Ex with a man with no hands.

Yeah but how is having some military guys that blasted a couple Arabs 10 years watch you make it so much better? Unless you are a tier 0 operator how many meaningful combat experiences will the average combat veteran have, I doubt that many. Swat is having 10 guys gun down Tyrone with 20 mags and landing 2 shots.

Seems like someone deploys to Iraq once and takes some fire and instantly becomes a master tactician in the eyes of most people.

Dont know if this is hard mode or not

>SW Oklahoma, near Lawton/Ft. Sill area

I get that, shotgun loading is definitely a skill, but when you're opening up the loading ports bigger than hotkinkyjo's asshole and having to use quad load caddys that will shit the bed if you go prone on them, you're moving into gamer realm and it doesn't really have much bearing on real life guns or gear. A lot of competition styles start out trying to be realistic and practical, and end up something else. You wouldn't be punished, you would just be in a division with other people that are going for the same thing.

Pic related. Practical shotgun setup and practical shotgun gear. But doesn't hold a candle nowadays to anybody who can quad load and runs a gamer shotgun.

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So do you get into airshit and paintball to train force on force or?

There are classes

ncsection.org for the match calendar. i shoot devil dog, pitt county, sir walter, and i'll probably shoot super grand champ.

that doesn't have people shooting back tho

how are shotshell caddies and two matchsavers any less gamer than a quadload rack?

as a military vet I can tell you they do read a lot of books and watch a lot of videos
not youtube as such but a lot of training vids are on youtube
those going into socom have their own training manual but Jordan, Cooper, and Ayoob remain recommended reading

Just do it for fun.

If you want to prep, find a trainer that's a vet and has a decent reputation.

Thanks man, I'll probably see you there once I save up some dosch for some bullets.

Two classes per year is about $1,000 and it is still only two events per year - greatly less than what is required to keep you tuned. Further, any live fire class will still have a lot of restrictions hamstringing them for safety concerns. Classes only carry you so far.