45 ACP VS 9mm

Handgun hollow points do not stop based on muzzle energy. Muzzle energy comparisons are worthless. In effectiveness testing 9x19 hollow points have proven to be functionally just as effective as .45 ACP hollow points. Therefore, since 9mm handguns give you higher magazine capacity, it's the preferable caliber.

I'm strictly talking about defensive handgun use with quality ammo, which is readily available and what you should be carrying.

I swear there's gotta be just one user who somehow gets a perverse pleasure out of making 45/9 threads.

9 and 45, both carry almost the same kinetic energy on their standard loads.
The 45 bullet, while slower, is also heavier, therefor is has more momentum which transforms into more perceived recoil for the shooter as well as more momentum transferred into the target, which in this case is called "stopping power"
45 being bigger also means less ammo capacity.
Those are the facts.
Discussion comes from the cost-benefit between the increase in stopping power against ammo capacity.

My assessment: The terminal ballistics of most handgun calibers in the .380 to 10mm range are almost identical and not worth the reduced ammo capacity. Due to all being low velocity rounds incapacitation is mostly archived due to blood loss and/or vital organs damage for both of which and extra millimeter in diameter means very little, while amount of bullets on target does, therefor magazine capacity and felt recoil are the most important factors.
Training is also a huge factor, so cheaper ammunition could be relevant.

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>not shooting handguns at 400+ yards

What a fag

so what is the point of 147 grain federal hst JHP in 9mm if they go slower than the speed of sound and are about the same fps as a 45?
Not criticizing because I carry the 147 grain by federal but im curious if I made a bad decision and just got what seems to me to be a shitty speed of the bullet in a much lighter weight than a 45 and that has less range

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You're supposed to use them with a suppressor

isn't the only good point about 9mm is that it goes faster than sound?

>In effectiveness testing 9x19 hollow points have proven to be functionally just as effective as .45 ACP hollow points
Funny how this is thrown out the window as soon as you actually test them on meat/animal carcasses. I've tested them on wild hog and deer carcasses. .45 hollow points do a shitload more internal damage than 9mm hollow points. Not to mention .45 completely powderized hog ribs and the 9mm just fractured the rib and deflected. I also tested 9mm and .45 fmj against hog skulls. They both went in but the 9mm didn't exit. The .45 did and blew bits of brain matter out the back. Although .357 magnum beat them both.
Guns I used for the test was a Walther ppq in 9mm and a usp compact in .45

then why the fuck do the police like to use them as a duty round??

Because police departments are, by-and-large, run by retards.

Agree with some, but there are a few points I would like to address.
>Effectively the same muzzle energy as .45
>Hollow points are, therefore, about as effective as .45 hollow points
Keep in mind, momentum =! kinetic energy. A 45 hallow point will push further, with increased wounding effects.

>FMJ overpenetrates and does little permanent damage
Neither 9 nor 45 FMJ will over-penetrate on most of the cases, in fact performing quite similar. Both CAN do so but probably wont.

Oh it definitely matters OP...

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thank you for helping me figure out that I am a fucking retard, apparently I even need help figuring that out because I am so retarded, fuck my parents, fuck my genetics that gave me a bad back, fuck my parents for reproducing and having a literally retarded piece of shit. It is fucking over for me fuck it never even began

Generally speaking, .45 ACP is big and slow, while 9x19mm is (comparatively) small and fast. In practice, the energy actually delivered by each respective caliber isn't vastly different. That said, there's probably an argument to be made as to how each round imparts that energy, owing to surface area and all that.

The relative size of .45 ACP, however, typically calls for a larger gun with a smaller magazine capacity that one would find in a comparable 9mm pistol.

>What are the strengths and weaknesses of each round? And does it all matter?
I don't own a .45 just a 9mm to get that out of the way. The brass casing on a .45 is a very limiting factor on the ballistics of the round. When you get into hollow point rounds it's suppose to expand to half the diamiter of what it started at so 9mm expands to about the size of what a .45 starts at. You can get +p ammo in 9mm a lot more easily because it doesn't have the same case weakness the .45 does.
When you get into significant differences the .45 outweights the 9mm bullet mass almost twice for weight on average so it's a lot more difficult to propel a heavier thing faster. It gets lower speeds that are almost comparable. It's a lot more difficult to get that mass up to speed. I'd honestly rather have a .45acp even though it'd lose half it's capacity if you were trying to fit the same amount of bullets as the other one. They're both okay just bullet for bullet I'd expect the .45 to do more than a 9x19 in non expanding rounds. 9+p generally gets really around the tip of the transonic barrier so a lot of it just doesn't seem very trust worthy since it's smaller and the bullet will destabilize in flight a lot easier, not that it matters at pistol ranges. There is just a significant more bit of energy about propelling a bigger mass. It's larger is size and weight compared to a 9mm, 9x19 loses any of it's benefits when it starts to get larger bullets comparable to a .45acp it tops out around 140 grain bullets half the weight of .45's and starts to lose all the speed advantages it has.

This. Plus pie r squared

There's 15+1 .45s out there

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>then why the fuck do the police like to use them as a duty round??

When affirmative action and diversity infected police depts. both state and federal, it was obivious 110 lb women and 135 lb fags and ghetto trash could not qualify with most weapons.
So they went to 9mm which even a retard can shoot and not start crying.

>more mass and weight to break through bone and muscle
>hurrdurrr muh bigger rock do more damage
Absolute fuddery
>45 is quite fast in the 185 grain range
>900fps is fast

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It’s pretty simple.

9mm is good enough. It’s smaller, lighter, higher capacity, less expensive and lower recoiling than larger calibers. .45 isn’t gooder enough to warrant the added cost, decreased capacity, added weight, larger size, increased recoil and muzzle flip.

Actually unions and corrupt fuddy retard chiefs are the only things keeping .40 and .45 on the department rosters these days. Anyone with half a brain knows that they would save tens of thousands of dollars in training and duty ammunition, save wear and tear on duty guns, and 9mm has no clear disadvantage ballistically. Most large departments are switching back to 9mm.

>suppressed
Almost completely irrelevant, especially for handgun caliber. Suppressing guns is super niche.
>effectiveness questionable
Questionable how? 45 and 9 (like almost all handgun calibers) have nearly identical effectiveness when it comes to simple anti-personnel.
>hits harder than 9mm
ABSOLUTE MEMERY
Both calibers tend to come in right at 450ftlbs from 5" barrels, with 9mm actually normally having a slightly higher energy yield.
>If 9mm and .45 cost the exact same, I'm willing to bet a lot of 9mmfags would switch over to shooting and carrying .45 more.
>implying a 15-20¢ difference on Gucci self defense ammo means anything to most shooters
Yeah because capacity, recoil, and frame size have nothing to do with your average person's carry choice. You're the worst-informed shill I've ever encountered.

before you get loaded down with anymore bullshit than you already have

9mm
>Decent on Flesh
>Decent on Barriers (car doors, walls etc.)
>Great in Capacity
45acp
>Great on Flesh
>Bad on Barriers (car doors, walls etc.)
>Bad in Capacity (in most cases)
40s&w
>Great on Flesh
>Great on Barriers (car doors, walls etc.)
>Decent in Capacity

Youre about to hear a lot of loaded opinions after this post but look up penetration tests and load data without reading the opinion part and you will know that everything I just listed is as true and condensed as it can possibly be. Youre welcome

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>cope

None of it fucking matters, you reddit immigrant faggots.
Handguns suck cock at energy delivery compared to rifles.
The differences are angels dancing on the head of a pin.
The only way to immediately drop someone with a carry gun is hitting the CNS
.380 and up defensive loads penetrate well enough do this reliably.
Therefore the better round is either what you shoot better, or what carries more rounds for you to Dump.
You are all cock suckers.
4channel is the niggerization of this board.

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>Not mentioning 10mm because it makes all else look bad

Jow Forums's the kind of place where they'll argue that dick size doesn't matter, but 0.11" does.

I love you retards.

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No user. Pie r round

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900 fps wtf? You don't own a .45 nor did you bother to research.
The basic "bottom bitch" 185 .45 loads have 1000 fps.
The higher quality 185s have 1100-1200 fps.
Most 230 grain defensive rounds are 920 fps for fucks sake.

>Almost completely irrelevant, especially for handgun caliber. Suppressing guns is super niche.
You're a fucking retarded noguns if you actually think that. The only good rifle supp hosts are .300 blk and .22 lr. Every other caliber breaks the sound barrier making the suppressor pointless
>Questionable how? 45 and 9 (like almost all handgun calibers) have nearly identical effectiveness when it comes to simple anti-personnel.
Except they don't. People love 9mm because the Fbi says it's the best, but in reality the Fbi has also said that 10mm, .40, and .357 were the best. It's almost like they aren't credible and switch when paid out by gun manufacturers.
>implying a 15-20¢ difference on Gucci self defense ammo means anything to most shooters
Yeah you're fucking obviously a noguns. You don't train with defensive ammunition, but even discounting that, you can get 1,000 rounds of 9mm fmj for the price of 500 .45 acp fmj. I shoot over 15,000 rounds a year. It fucking adds up.
>Yeah because capacity, recoil, and frame size have nothing to do with your average person's carry choice.
Anything over 7 rounds is absolutely fine for self defense in a carry gun. .45 recoil isn't bad at all, even in a shield sized gun. Frame size will on average only be .15 wider than a 9mm.

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Bear with me.
In HS football game, I was taken to the hospital with bruised ribs and a possible concussion.
That night they brought in a teenager who had been shot at a party. The .22 SHORT fired accidentally from a derringer hit him just below his collarbone. It clipped a blood vein and his R lung filled with blood. He fell on his right side.

If he had fallen on his Left side, he would have drowned in his own blood. The emergency surgeon cut him from his spine, around his waist to his navel to remove the tiny slug and sew up the vein.

A .22 SHORT out of derringer revolver. So you "reddit diseased immigrant, scum sucking faggits" can go fuck yourselves and your dick waving debates. If you get shot by anything, there is a good chance you will die, or at least be maimed for life. So go suck a 9mm dick.

>physics is fuddlore

>185 gr (12 g) JHP,
>1,100 ft/s (340 m/s),
>497 ft⋅lbf (674 J)

Nice try with your so/i round. .45 auto is clearly better

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I would much rather have 17 rounds of 9mm than 7 rounds of 45

my .45 is 12+1

I carry sig v crown 200gr in my 1911 and I chrono an average of 1088 with it. 185 grain I get 1150+ which is 9mm velocity. So, much more mass yet same speed as 9mm. Wonder which round is better? hmmmmmm

Where the fuck are you getting 7 rounds from? My Fn 45 has 15 round .45 mags and is roughly glock 17 sized

a regular ass 1911 that y'all covet so much gets only 7 maybe 8 with a fullsize mag

>Every other caliber breaks the sound barrier making the suppressor pointless
Nigger what? Do you know how to read? Do you realize I literally said the suppressor point IS POINTLESS?
>Fbi
>implying I listen to glow in the dark niggers
W E W L A D D I E
Look at independent studies, they say the same thing
>you're fucking obviously a noguns
Kek, take some naproxen Janet. The point was made specifically about what's more viable as a carry caliber, so I answered with data relevant to that.
Get the sand out of your vag, girl. Butthurt ranting doesn't look good on you.

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Shhhh. People here think that shooting a block of jell-o dressed like 80s action stars validate their caliber choice

just own both you faggot

9mm is superior
cheap af
low recoil
more capacity
can carry 200rds of 9mm at the same weight of 100rds of fuddy phive
better penetration both soft and hard

.fuddy phive
makes big hole
john moses browning
can be loaded with black powder (b/c old af) to LARP about being a real prepper who can reload on the cheap

t. own both
9mm is my go to in range, ccw, HD and stockpiling ammo
.45 is when I feel like making big holes in paper (really cause I just like the pistol and any other chambering is sacrilegious)

chronograph some hot 9mm loads and see if they are just barely passing as supersonic like your 45, brainlet

Look at all these lying niggers trying to defend their shit caliber choice. You're all talking about 45 from a fuckhueg barrel, not handgun length barrels.

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What does that have to do with the fact that you're sending a 200gr projectile at the 9mm speeds?

They're colossal. Don't be obtuse.

I'm the user that posted I don't trust studies that revolve around shooting denim wrapped jello. So I test on actual flesh and bones and my findings were that .45 acp blows 9mm out of the water.

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I got tackled just out of bounds on the sideline and was taken to the pediatric ward for overnight observation.

You retards focus on tissue damage and that is all well and good until the slug breaks a bone. Even a bone in your arm can be broken by a slug and then you are fucked. Especially if its a femur or vertebrae. Your ass will be sucking water if that happens.
"Hey limpy, hows it going?"

>I don't trust scientific studies that attempt to make every variable consistent
>I'm going to believe my own anecdotes and shooting random as fuck deer carcasses in an uncontrolled manner.

Now compare to 9mm you dumb niggers

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>here is an experiment with controls and standards of comparing bullets
>nah all that shit is fake news and I wanna do something meaningless and not scientific at all

And that disagrees with me... how?

Bleeding is not a reliable way to stop a threat immediately. Especially a drugged up nog. But a spine hit with a bullet or a transcranial lead implant WILL make them hit the ground.

22 short knocking a blood vessel sure is nifty. Want to stop the melanin rich future astronaut hopped up on pcp from caving your skull in? Find defensive rounds that are shown capable of reaching the spine reliably, that you shoot well, and carry that.

>I don't trust studies that revolve around shooting denim wrapped jello. So I test on actual flesh and bones and my findings were that .45 acp blows 9mm out of the water.
>"WELL JIMBO THAT FURTYFAHV SURE DID LOOK NASTY, WHO NEEDS THEM DUMMY SCIENTISTS AND STUPID SO-CALLED DATA WHEN WE GOT BESSY'S RIBS TO SHOOT AT"

9, fag boy. Virtually every standard mah is 8, plus 1 in the pipe. Congrats on exposing yourself as noguns.

>(((scientific studies)))
I don't buy into your trickery, merchant. If 9mm was better, it would have shown in my testing as well.
>I'm going to believe my own anecdotes and shooting random as fuck deer carcasses in an uncontrolled manner
Deer carcasses are actually very close to human when it comes to ballistics. Also you're leaving out the hog skull. Both tests showed .45 to be superior.

>its 9 because 8+1
woopty fucking do I have 17+1

>I don't buy into your trickery, merchant. If 9mm was better, it would have shown in my testing as well.
>why is it that I don't get the same results when I completely throw out any sort of consistent methodology and use a completely random, inconsistent and dumb way of looking at shit, hell not even collecting data either?
No you're just making shit up, you have a confirmation bias and you think that anything that disagrees with you is fake.

>fag boy. Virtually every standard mah is 8
except they aren't, a majority of them are 7 because the original 1911's were 7, 8's only appeared when the magazines and magwells became slightly longer giving that 8th bullet. Tons of kimbers, RIA's and every shit in between is going to be 7 standard, 8's are by far the exception. You really have to look for 8s comparatively.

You are so retarded. Your own data shows:
>BB 185 grain +p = 1196 fps 5" barrel.
>BB 230 grain +p = 1016 fps 5" barrel.
>Federal HST 230 grain = 896 fps 5" barrel.
>Hornady crit defense 185 grain = 1041 fps 5" barrel.

Your dumbass said 185 grains typically go 900 fps and you got shamed.

>here is an experiment with controls and standards of comparing bullets
An experiment shooting fucking jello covered by various materials.
>nah all that shit is fake news and I wanna do something meaningless and not scientific at all
So shooting actual flesh is less scientific than shooting jello? I'll tell you this. If .45 goes completely through a boar's skull it will go through a human skull. If .45 powderizes deer ribs and shreds flesh, it will do it to a human.

>I would much rather have 17 rounds of 9mm than 7 rounds of 45

"I wish I had a 100 shot pistol so I could hit something".
All I need is three shots. Two in the chest and one in the head. Or all three in the forehead so you look like a bowling ball. I don't need a 20 round pistol.

bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang......"Did I hit anything yet?"

>An experiment shooting fucking jello covered by various materials.
Ballistics gel has been determined to simulate typical flesh accurately enough to be used. Its not made up nor is it arbitrary. In each of these studies you're going to find what denim they used, how thick the denim was and how many layers they applied justly. There is almost always a control and blank that exists with and without denim.

Again you have a massive cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias because you have dumb conniptions about actual evidence that disagrees with you.

Thanks elmer fudd, you don't need more than 3 bullets in your revolver because if you can't do it in 2 bullets you're a shit shot and you should train yourself with only having 1 bullet.

>you have a confirmation bias and you think that anything that disagrees with you is fake
Until they start testing calibers on actual cadavers, I don't give a fuck how many jello blocks they shoot. My testing provides more real world data than their lab coat ballistics.

no offense kid but I don't concealed carry just in case I need to shoot a random corpse I find, and my main parameter of interest isn't >wut looked most coolest to shoot

>humans are completely flesh with no bone or fat or organs that have different effects on a bullet's trajectory

>Pricey high grain ammo

Wrong.
147 grain is naturally subsonic and available in bulk for 17 cpr. Even subsonic branded odd weights (like 150) are still cheaper than .45. Also 147 standard pressure defense loads are subsonic as well.

The only suppression advantage .45 has is the ammo you van buy at Walmart is subsonic. Which you should still be buying online anyway.

No thats inconsistent as fuck, ballistics gel will have the same density and consistency throughout the material. You're literally advocating for throwing away any realm of consistency and want to introduce new and inconsistent variables because you're fucking retarded and don't know shit about doing an ACTUAL scientific experiment. Do you want to have valuable data or do you want to have absolutely useless data that will tell you nothing?

Now we're getting into using a carcass, now we're getting into how warm is the tissues, how old is it, how was it stored, how was it prepared, shit even the fat:muscle ratio will be huge and not only that what part of the carcass you shoot will be incredibly inconsistent.

This is why they use ballistics gel because it accurately models a carcass in a consistent way that doesn't involve all this bullshit you want to introduce because you have a massive confirmation bias.

>Both tests showed .45 to be superior.
Nigger what the fuck test are you talking about
>+p
>being this much of a nigger

>Its not real because I want to use something purposely inconsistent to get inconsistent data that supports my already inconsistent narrative
Go ahead you're going to repeat the dumb "use a real carcass" experiment and get absolutely useless data through the entire thing.

oh yea and it won't be comparable to anyone elses experiment because your carcasses are different and by default the experiments are uncomparable.

Even the non +P put your stupid ass statement to shame. Gtfo
Also, doubletap ammo has similar velocity to those Buffalo Bore and it's not even +P

Get .45 ACP if you like the 1911 or if you want to shoot suppressed; get 9mm for everything else.

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ia800200.us.archive.org/16/items/fbi-handgun-wounding-factors-and-effectiveness/fbi-handgun-wounding-factors-and-effectiveness.pdf

tl;dr

>Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock"
>of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The
>bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid
>bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the
>1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."
42, 43
> Given desirable and
>reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound
>by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs
>from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the
>bigger bullet.
44

>>Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.

>>>Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.
Ok then this begs the question is will a common 45acp, whether fmj or defense load, penetrate 12 inches?

I'm curious because I don't know

Any decent defensive load will penetrate 12 - 18 inches.
FMJ goes for like 27 iirc

Shooting a Block of Jello only shows How the Round Behaves in Muscle Tissue?
What about Organs that are way softer, or Behave in a different manner faggot?
So Shooting a Corpse of an Animal is actually more accurate than testing on a block of Jelly... Surprise.

>And that disagrees with me... how?

Erryone focuses on "tissue damage'. Cause muh gun magazine writerz is experts on all that chit.

Well poke someone with your finger and you will hit a bone. Show me a spot on the normal human body where there is a section the size of a gelatin block with no bones.

b-b-but I seen it in a gun magazine written by an expert at sucking dicks.

>typing all that shit
Do you run a police department?

Maybe to small dudes

Shooting a block of jello only shows what happens if you hit a block of jello. Or a fat fuck.

10mm
>great on flesh
>great on barriers
>great on capacity (handlets need not apply)

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