How do these 2 rounds stack up?
They have about the same muzzle energy in a carbine sized weapon.
5.56 holds its velocity better at long range,
but .30 carbine is lighter and comes with a lighter rifle
They both go through soft armor with ease.
But in theory .30 carbine could do more terminal damage if comparing fmj
What do you guys think?
Other urls found in this thread:
>.30 carbine won’t penetrate winter clothing
>5.56 is meant to wound, not kill
No, .30 carbine will not have good armor pen compared to 556
.30 carbine goes through soft body armor
.30 carbine is a crossdressing .357 mag that can't do shit past 200yrd
5.56 is pest control on pervitin
.30 carbine is as powerful at 100 yards as .357 at the muzzle
> should have been a 6.5mm bottleneck that we could still be using now
> designed to miss
i see two failures
I think we started necking down all of our rifle cartridges for a reason. Im a pretty but .30/m1 carbine fanboy but IMO it just doesn't stack up. Sure, it'll still kill someone. Sure, it's great for coyote. I also really hope we get a few more modern production guns chambered in .30 carbine on the market to keep ammo cheap, but I just don't see it as the truly more practical option.
Literally more powerful than .357 magnum
So what's your argument against it?
How is it designed to miss?
This exactly.
.30-30 or nothing. Get your lever on.
I just can't see it making a comeback when 9mm, 5.56 and to an extent .300 blackout kind of have everything covered that .30 carbine can do, especially because M1s are the only reason it's still alive today.
I look at it like I look at 6.5 swede. Yea, it's fucking great, but as far as the U.S. market is concerned swede mausers and a few other surp guns are the only reason it's survived
>9mm
Pistol caliber. Not relevant
>5.56
I already showed it has several advantages and few disadvantages
>.300 blackout
It actually stacks up very nicely
.30 carbine
110grn @ 2,100 fps
.300 BLK
110grn @ 2,375 fps
Tell me, what does .30 carbine offer that none of those do that would justify a resurgence in guns chambered in it?
Much lighter weight.
Both for the ammo and for the rifle.
The light weight argument seems to be more for the M1 carbine itself. Why not .30 carbine necked down to 6.5?
>But in theory .30 carbine could do more terminal damage if comparing fmj
That's where you're wrong kiddo. 5.56 ball typically fragments while .30 carbine doesn't, this means that .30 carbine leaves a sub caliber hole while 5.56 makes a massively larger cavity than its diameter.
Because such a round doesn't exist.
Oh, it's the "5.56 is an amazing manstopper" meme
Not what i said at all, and a complete non argument. Fragmenting 5.56 makes a massively larger permanent wound cavity than .30 carbine FMJ and many 5.56 FMJ designs typically fragment, it's just a fact.
It's not a fact, it's a meme.
Sure. But why bring back .30 carbine when someone could make a new round that's essentially .30 carbine necked down to 6.5? I get what you're saying in this thread. It's a good cartridge, but I don't think it's good enough to come back.
Why do you keep asking me about "bringing it back"?
I don't get where this is coming from.
>12.6g is lighter than 12.3g per rd
No it isnt. The m1 carbine is slightly lighter loaded w/ a 15rd mag. Within .5lbs otherwise. Nothing in terms of a serious advantage especially you consider the shitty wood stock and lack of rails.
>5.56 FMJ designs typically fragment
So it's bad at being FMJ? Neat
What's the point of this thread if you're not trying to advocate bringing .30 carbine back into mainstream firearm production? Just to say "look guys this round is good too"? Anyone with half a brain knows .30 is good. The only question worth discussing is "is it good enough to find a prominent niche in today's market?"
>No it isnt.
Depends on the load. Mags are indeed lighter.
>The m1 carbine is slightly lighter loaded w/ a 15rd mag. Within .5lbs otherwise.
Nope.
M1 carbine is 5.2 lbs unloaded
M4 carbine is 6.5 lbs unloaded
>Nothing in terms of a serious advantage especially you consider the shitty wood stock and lack of rails.
Guess you're a brainlet who doesn't know you can buy polymer stocks and rails
Barrel lengths change that.
The point is my very first sentence.
>"How do these 2 rounds stack up?"
And .30 carbine is still produced in large numbers anyway, so idk what you're on about.
Barrel lengths change the velocity of every round, user.
Because 6.5 Grendel exists.
>nibbas don't know about 5.7mm Johnson
.30 carbine is an excellent round with an extremely flat trajectory until it decides to quit and drops something like 18 inches in two feet and hits like a .357 out of an 18 inch barrel when fired from the M1 Carbine. I live in NC, and I use it to hunt deer. It’s light, and my gun loaded weighs less than an M4 carbine unloaded and a lot less than my AR-15. So it has a niche, but not a huge one. If you live in an area with a lot of brush so you’ll never be taking a shot greater than 50yds and want a gun that’s light, hits hard enough to get the job done, and literally goes ‘pew’ when you pull the trigger it’s a a great round/gun combo. I would also trust it for home defense and anything up to mountain lion. And about the whole meme that it won’t penetrate a thick jacket. I think that comes from people missing more than anything. I once shot a deer with it from 30 yards, assuming I had missed because I saw the impact hit a tree, only for the deer to bolt and drop like a sack of bricks.
If I had to pick between my AR-15 or my M1 Carbine though, it’s barely a choice. As much as I love the little thing it’s not really as versatile.
And 357 magnum from a carbine like a lever action has more velocity, energy, diameter than the .30 carbine. .30 Carbine is good for an autoloader. .357 is good for a lever or a bolt action.
>.30 Carbine necked down to 6.5
You would have to up the pressure to make it useful, and even then you are really only going about 2300fps. It's like necking 5.56 up or 300BLK down to 6.5mm at 300BLK weight.
Penetration is a function of P= SD*v + m*v (there's probably a m**0 component as well, but its insignificant). To match 5.56's SD at 6.5mm you need at least a (.264**2)*62/(.224**2) = 86 grain bullet. To match momentum at 86gr you'd need a velocity of 2900*62/86 = 2100fps, but to match overall penetration you'd need a little more velocity than that. 2400fps would be good. You'd need a case a little larger than 5.56 to get that and match 5.56 performance with an 86gr 6.5mm bullet. And if you wanted to shoot something more typical of light 6.5mm like 100-115gr, you need an ever bigger case because going much below 2400fps you'll start losing penetration performance and matching 5.56. By making it bigger, it ends up weighing more. 6.5 is just a tradeoff and not much better in any regard as a standard infantry round as 5.56.
The performance to weight improvement ratio for a new cartridge very much favors a Grendel or 6.8 sized cased firing a heavy 6mm round (95-105gr 6mmAR at 2700-2800fps). OR biting the bullet (heh) and going up to .264 USA or 6.5CM.
>And 357 magnum from a carbine like a lever action has more velocity, energy, diameter than the .30 carbine.
Not from the numbers I'm looking at (except diameter obviously)
>it’s not really as versatile.
Then put rails on it.
Put your money where your mouth is and prove it then.
>when you have to misleading quote somebody out of context to make a point
Just sad. i said that MANY 5.56 FMJ designs fragment, there are many others that don't.
>prove what I asserted is wrong
Not how this works.
Why do fudds get so asshurt when you tell them they're dumb? .30 carbine and .45 acp have both been highly outclassed. Like do we really have to pretend .30 carbine is better than 5.56? Like all the soldiers on patrol in the ME would be better off with fucking .30 carbine? I fucking hate fudds
I actually played around necking down a .30 carbine to 6.5 and this is sort of the conclusion I came to. The idea was to load a 110gr 6.5 projectile. with a slightly longer barrel, you could get about the same performance but at greater distances with slightly better penetration. It would be worth it if you're looking for an improved .30 carbine, but it wouldn't be a wonder round or anything
You're either extremely easily asshurt, or got btfo already and are bypassing to reply chain to vent frustration at your own mental impotence.
I'm guessing the latter. but if you want to insist its the former, then fine by me.
Don't let the door hit your shattered booty on the way out.
>believing that fuddlore myth from the Korean War
At night and in the snow covered terrain your perception of distances changes so GIs were missing shots they thought they should have hit making them think their rounds were doing nothing, the Chinese that were equipped with winter gear had goat skin coats to perpetuate the myth
.30-30 and .30 carbine are two very different rounds
Show one load where 30 carbine is lighter. I was quoting 62gr. 5.56 is even lighter with 55gr loads.
>15rd mags are lighter than 30rd ones
Big shock. That's what I pointed out
>polyshit tactical m1 carbine
Then youd deal with the fact that it's shit in terms of field reliability. GIs in WW2 literally tossed mags and got new ones every op because they were shit. Not to mention garbage ergos.
They tossed away mags because they were supposed to be disposable.
>who needs an AR-15 anyways? .30 carbine was good enough for me and my boys in 'nam and it should be good enough for you young'uns.
Go but a $1200.00 1911 with your SS money and never come back
Rails won’t let me shoot something 500yds out.
>mags being lighter has nothing to do with them being half the capacity and made of potmetal garbage
Bigthink lmao.
>How do these 2 rounds stack up?
One on top of the other. But they're cylindrical so you have to be really careful.
Was in the middle of replying when I realized you are unaware that 30 round M1 carbine mags exist.
Either that, or you're so retarded that you would ignore them in favor of the 15 round one for comparison.
Guess we're done.
30 30 or 357 for lever gun?
I already pointed out that 5.56 has a longer effective range in the very first post. Try to pay attention.
5.56 has garbage ballistics at that range anyway.
meant for
>being this triggered
Hilarious how I point out some advantages .30 carbine has and you immediately start shitposting to defend your AR. Almost as if your ego itself were under attack.
.30 carbine has literally zero advantages over an ar15 chambered in 5.56. None. Larger diameter isn't an advantage and the weight difference is negligible. Older isn't better boomer
It is when somethings axiomatic. 5.56's propensity to fragment with common FMJ loads like m193 is EXTREMELY well documented. You're claiming that cars don't run on gas with zero proof and going "hurr durr i don't need any evidence prove they do".
So, because 5.56 has garbage ballistics at 500yds I should put rails on my M1 carbine? So I can look tactical? Because that’s not going to improve on the fact that the .30 carbine, as much as I enjoy shooting it, won’t even reach out that far.
lol I bet you're one of those fags that talks shit about how light your AYYARR FIDEEN is,
And now that I'm pointing out a rifle that's 20% lighter, that sudden gives "literally zero advantage"
>5.56 fragmentation is a great wounding mechanism
>cars run on gas
>ITS THE SAME THING user
lol okay.
Well if I wanted to prove cars run on gas, I could provide like a dozen links proving this after 10 seconds in google.
Sounds like a cool project, especially if you could get it working out of an M1.
>unaware 30rd mags exist
No I was under the assumption that youd researched loaded magazine weights and found out the 30rd m2 magazine is in fact 4oz heavier than a heavier than USGI 30rd PMAG. That's why I used the lighter 15rd mag for reference.
Guess not and youre just a dumb nigger counting on people to not use google.
No, I thought that by versatility you meant rails and accessories.
Because literally the very first post says that 5.56 is better at range.
So I couldn't possibly have anticipated your bizarre move to point this out again.
>.30-30
You mistyped 38-55 user
Only issue with 6mmAR and 6.5CM is that it takes a long barrel to get that performance out of the cartridge. Like 18" or 20". Only way militaries are going to adopt a rifle with a barrel of that length is if it's in a bullpup. And bullpups kinda suck rn. A 6mmAR in a good bullpup would be an absolute improvement over a 5.56 AR though.
Oh really?
Where's your data for that?
Maybe the numbers i found are wrong.
Because it really seemed to me like you had no idea such a thing existed by the way you never acknowledged it, or pointed out this new fact of yours before.
When I was experimenting with a necked down .30 carbine a few years ago, I learned about the 5.7 Johnson but didn't like it. It seemed like he tried to reproduce 5.56 with the .30 carbine cartridge and succeeded only in introducing 5.56's draw backs while loosing .30 carbines advantages. I opted for 6.5 largely because of the numbers from the 5.7 Johnson.
Oh. No, by versatility I meant the ability to use the same rifle for multiple tasks. My M1 Carbine is a great little gun for that niche I pointed out, but it’s only marginally better, and I have taken a bighorn on a trip to AZ with a 370 yard shot with my AR-15 as well as a deer back home with a 23 yard shot. The former being impossible with my carbine.
>shit mags
>garbage ergos
>polymer is only good when it's on my favorite rifle
You've never used an M1 carbine or .30 carbine, have you?
So... why point this out over and over?
It was already pointed out in the OP.
Get fucked nigger. Ive already thrown you in the nugger pit with the cartridge weight comparison. Not doing anything else for you.
>Inb4 no proof!!!
No worries coon. Im out!
Your post would have been funnier if you'd made your intense anger a little less obvious.
I was just offering my 2 cents as someone who actually owns and regularly uses both.
Alright well I guess next time be more clear about what you mean by versatile, please.
Because I don't think most people associate that with a longer effective range, and you may cause more confusion in the future.
.30-30 all the way. Lots of options. Can be loaded with any .30 cal bullet*
(*Be careful with pointed bullets in a tubular magazine)
I hunt deer with hand loads, a 150gr Hornady FTX over a hot powder load of 3031. Puts them down hard, never had them run more than 20yds. Lungs turned to slush but little meat damage if you do your job right.
Levers are awesome, lightweight little guns. There's a reason they emerged as the King of the Deer Rifle.
>.30 carbine
Limited to round point bullets. FMJs or softpoints.
95% of firearms that use it are M1 Carbines. 3% are Ruger Blackhawks and the rest are random oddballs.
>.300 Memeout
Any .30 cal bullet. Including subsonics for suppressed shooting. Can be used in any model of AR with the right barrel. Is also available in a wide variety of sporting rifles and rapidly growing.
What even is your argument at this point? that 5.56 doesn't fragment? That fragmenting doesn't make a larger wound than ice picking FMJ? Out with it already so we can get me proving how retarded you are over with.
Why do you arbitrarily limit .30 carbine to round nose loads?
My argument is that 5.56 fragmenting is massively overrated as a wounding mechanism.
Also that FMJ generally doesn't ice-pick if it's a decent round.
>My argument is that 5.56 fragmenting is massively overrated as a wounding mechanism.
What's overrated about putting fist sized holes in your target with sufficient penetration to reach the deepest vitals?
>Also that FMJ generally doesn't ice-pick if it's a decent round.
Prove it. Actual experts like Di maio who actually do autopsies on people describe the damage of .30 cal ball ammo as being similar to 9mm FMJ. They simply don't put enough energy into the tissue around them to cause meaningful damage from temporary stretch cavity.
It's funny to me how /arg/ fags bitch about literal ounces heavier for any other gun, but a pound and some change lighter is "zero advantage".
I've even seen it with parts. They'll defend to the death their preferred brand and aesthetic, generally pointing out weight difference being an ounce or two different, but when something is lighter they will say the weight difference is negligable and make up some other flaw
>30 cal ball ammo as being similar to 9mm FMJ
Stopped reading there.
>who cares what leading forensic ballistics experts with multiple decades of experience as a medical examiner think, that disagrees with my opinions!
This is like arguing with a child. Unsurprisingly you still haven't posted any proof of your claims.
>doesn't post a source
>claims 150 grn spitzer round at 2,800 fps makes the same wounds as 115 grn round nose at 1,150
>"y-you just hate facts!"
>pointed bullets in tubular magazines
I think it's a myth from a time when primers we're extremely unreliable desu. I can't imagine a bullet sitting in a mag ever having enough energy to detonate a primer
>proficient cartridge for 300 meter engagements
>33 cents or less a piece
>overrated
Not sure what any of that has to do with anything.
The price was never at issue, and fragmentation often won't be happening at 300 yards anyway.
>doesn't post a source
Gunshot wounds. Practical aspects of firearms, ballistics, and forensic techniques 2nd edition. Sorry, i figured you were capable of googling a name and figuring it out yourself, clearly a mistake on my part.
>claims 150 grn spitzer round at 2,800 fps makes the same wounds as 115 grn round nose at 1,150
Specifically he was speaking in reference to his experience in autopsies involving 7.62x39 ball ammunition, although the topic of discussion in this thread is .30 carbine which s inferior in just about every way. Stop trying to make this into an argument about other things.
How many people get shot with .30 carbine?
I remember reading that bubba'd M1 Carbines were kind of popular with SWAT team members before they got newer carbines a while ago but beyond that the only people I know who own one are people who like ww2 weapons and use it as a range toy or for hunting small duur in brush.
>you should be researching my claims and proving me wrong
Nope.
Probably plenty, during the time when they were 70 dollars a piece. Any cheap firearm is going to be used in a lot more crime
Neat. When were they 70 dollars a piece?
Few today, but in the 1980s and 1990s the .30 carbine was the memed stockpile gun you'd give to neighbors, wives, etc. Big boys used 7.62.
It was used like a PCC is today.
60's and 70's
>How many people get shot with .30 carbine?
Quite a few did back in the day, Di maio was active when it was a fairly popular choice for defensive use. To quote him directly on the subject at hand:
"Wounds produced by the full metal-jacketed .30 Carbine bullet more closely resemble those from a Magnum handgun bullet than those from a centerfire rifle, whereas the wounds produced by soft-point or hollow-point ammunition are much too extensive to be ascribed to handgun cartridges and most closely resemble in severity those seen with a rifle cartridge. Thus, the .30 Carbine cartridge lies in a transition zone between rifle and handgun cartridges in terms of wounding. The construction of the bullet loaded in the .30 Carbine cartridge case determines whether the wound is handgun-like or rifle-like."
also:
"The wounds to the internal organs (chest and abdomen) are often no more severe in appearance than those from 9 mm or .357 Magnum handgun bullets"
>googling a name to see if they're actually an expert
>researching
Wow, funny how you're choosing to ignore my cited argument based on expert opinions and instead argue about something completely irrelevant. Do you literally have no evidence for your claims and opinions? because that's what it looks like.
>cited argument
kek
Fakler said you're wrong.
Just google it.
t. cited argument
Neat.
So in other words .30 carbine hits much harder than a 9mm and you were full of shit.
What I'm getting out of this is to use soft point or hollow point ammunition when hunting or shooting people?
Soft point dosen't feed so good in a M1 Carbine.
I know. 30 carbine is nearly useless.
>inb4 Whitman used one!
.30-30 is still what you want in a light rifle.