Knife fighting

You cannot learn knife fighting from a book.

If we're speaking of knife fighting as the fencing, then read old spanish Manual del Baratero: the guidebook on use of navaja, kife and gypsy scissors of 1849.
If we're talking about military school of knife use, designed around just kililng enemy and taking down the guards (no fencing, no duelling, no symmetric fight), then read Blizhny Boy (Close combat) by N.N Simkin and Kill or get Killed by Rex Applegate.
>- If he’s holding a knife, he probably isn’t blocking kicks very well
Wat? Nobody would ever kick a guy with a knife, the leg would get cut.
>- throw shit, put tables and chairs between you and him.
And strip yourself of every possible weapon or shield substitute.
It was discussed on Jow Forums that this guy is both correct and full of shit.

oh so what would you recommend, yelling uwu and reaching for dick?
low kicks are a fantastic idea, especially if you keep it mixed up.

You can pick basic ideas.
>and learn to move in a way that:
>> causes debilitating harm to enemy
>> limits possibility of my own injury
Pal, you're not giving any concretics to OP.
> blade
>not important.
Bullshit. Length and shape actually matter, every cantimeter gives an advantage.
Only things I can say are this:
- fighting knife should have a point (so, sheepfoots and mozzettas don't work)
- according to Vasily Fedorovich, a knife that can be useful for self-defence starts at 10cm long blade
>oh so what would you recommend, yelling uwu and reaching for dick?
Pick a chair or any other long item, keep the distance between yourself and the knife guy, reach for the exit and then run.
>low kicks are a fantastic idea
Alright, you made me check the commentary for russian edition of Manual del Baratero.
Yeah, low kiks might do, still I wouldn't like to risk my leg being cut. If you go for the kicks, wear some kind of protection, like high boots.

> 10cm
well, tell these tortilla niggers who are out there doing work on a routine basis
youtube.com/watch?v=TzjnouaKFAA

getting a few stitches in the leg is a lot less troubling than getting your nads mashed.
You MUST regain initiative and end fight now

The only concrete ideas worth hearing:
> get friends and spar.
> get knives and carry.

>It was discussed on Jow Forums that this guy is both correct and full of shit.
Interesting, I carry a knife and I like the view of avoiding confrontation and I can see that his lifestyle is kinda paranoid. Where is he exactly wrong?

Let's start with this: he makes no distinction between knife fencing (which in modern world has little to no practical use and it's more of a fun sport) and knife killing (stibbity stabbity stabbing). I just don't want to rewatch this video again

not that user, but you're going to need a new counterargument to the video

>he knows of the basic prison yard rush!
That is pretty much what it boils down to. be aggressive enough and be willing to take a punch or two annd you can take down pretty much anybody short of highly trained martial artists, and probably many of those too.

PS. the mother of all knife fighting books is "Get Tough" by W. E. Fairbairn, the inventor and designer of the SAS Fairbairn-Sykes commando dagger.

Desu. That video makes a really solid case against engaging in knife fights... Or at least the average misconception that a knife fight is more easy/safe to win.

Here's a surefire way to win more knife fights than anyone else. Buy a pair of running shoes and do cardio.

MCMAP training manual isn't a bad stop, lots of general hand to hand info in there that covers a little of everything from basic strikes and holds to small unit HtH tactics.

the more important question here is what was that knife meme here years ago where some guy would make the same post over and over shilling for his knife. i think the knife started with an 'S'

>well, tell these tortilla niggers who are out there doing work on a routine basis
What kind of work, cutting apples? Do you seriously believe that a knife this small can make a decent cut? What if the fighter would fail to make a face or neck cut? How is this pealer better than a memerambit?
>video guy says that concept comes from criminal culture
First, don't trust the guy who is marketing something while speaking about criminal culture. As long as he's not related to the countries where family crime tradition and knife culture were really present (like Italy or Spain).
Second, criminal culture (or rather prison culture) knives and shanks are mostly straight and pointy, because the main use of shanks in prison is making multiple stab wounds as fast as possible.
Picrelated are russian prison-made knives, they're much more impressive than
Third, had there been any attempt to put this school or it's knife to the test? At least similar to the ones conducted by russian Proekt Chistota (youtube.com/watch?v=PnyA2hbs3jM - test on Ontario Rat)?
>the mother of all knife fighting books is "Get Tough" by W. E. Fairbairn
Military manuals give the basic stabbity-stabbity stuff, they don't teach the specifics.
>That is pretty much what it boils down to.
No, it's also the means of moving and keeping yourself from recieving deadly wounds, if we're talking about the knife fighting as the knife fencing, not just "jump on his back and stab his shit out" kind of fighting.
Historical knife fighting as it was present in Spain and lands under spanish influence has more in common with Destreza, the old fencing style formed into system by Jeronimo Carranza and his pupils.
Chris Reeve Sebenza.

Attached: post-2675-0-70651400-1318597985.jpg (500x340, 32K)

thank you

>Picrelated are russian prison-made knives, they're much more impressive than an apple peeler

>video
Checked their site.
Holy shit, they're seriously using icepick grip - the grip that is adviced not to be used by most of historical knife fighters.

Youtube had some videos from Fairbairne about the sykes knife. I think it's an okay set up if you know absolutely nothing at all whatsoever and have no practical experience. While I think slashing is kind of pointless his point about it is decent enough about versatility and things you can do rather than mostly what you should.
Also look up WWII hand to hand combat technical manuals the army released. They had some really damn good dirty fighting tricks in there to do with your feet when your stuck in a clench. It doesn't specifically say do it then but it's a good trick if some asshole has you in a head lock upright and you don't want to try body slamming them or something turning it into a ground fight.

>criminal culture.
self defense is a criminal act in much of the world

Ice pick grip works if you have a smaller knife, and if you got experience in fisty cuffs. If you're experience it's basically just the same thing as normal except you got a really dangerous jab type movement thrown in that's way more effective than your knuckles. I'm a big fan of the icepick grip. I wouldn't use it to start with because I'd want someone to see I have it and intimidate them, but if they wanted to fight anyway I would switch over to it. Especially on the ground.

Very good. I agree with most all of this. Only thing I would criticize fair or not.He's almost completely wrong about mail, when he's talking about small punctures he's completely right, That's through and it's going to fuck you up. The rings not breaking or getting through if the blade is too big doesn't seem right. It's going to be superficial mostly if it gets through a ring, but mail was popular for the protection vs weight and logistics of maintaining it. It's kind of silly modern stab vests aren't more popular and thousands of years old things are still economically and other circumstances practical. Depending on the inner diameter of the rings that superficial would can be more than just a puncture if that tip gets in through, puncturing in mail should limit the depth especially with most blades, but once it's in, it's going to cut or tear it's way out. Even a tiny little gash going in that could be circumstantial if you were doing an icepick grip with hammer blows and the mail stopped it but got in there, could turn into it went in, twisted, or when it was getting pulled out knocked aside . If it gets knocked it's going to tear or just slice flesh and turn into a big nasty gash with the depth being insignificant but a really ugly wound overall. Modern body armor would act the same but if it has a better protection rating where the thing doesn't get in at all like between links, you're not just gambling on maybe it just can't go in that far and rake a gash that bleeds a lot more.

well its used in historical fencing manuals which is what their whole hobby is based around larping over.

it looks pretty effective for actually stabbing people too since it lets you conceal the blade behind your wrist while you approach.

What I mean is if the blade gets in between the mesh, and comes straight back out, he's right. If it goes in, and it gets rake across anything it's going to slide or tear. A superficial wound gets a lot less superficial that way. It's not like a life threatening thing, but nobody can take much of that and it could escalate things a lot really quickly especially if there was a lot of give.

Stab the cunt

>well its used in historical fencing manuals
In older works where daggers were used to pierce through armor.
In newer fencing schools, such as Destreza, dagger is held in a straight grip, in pair with the sword, with the shield (or improvised shield) and in the solo use.
I'd rather hold it straightly.
>With the knife held in this fashion, it is easy to maneuver it in all directions by controlling the direction of the blade by a combination movement of the fore and middle fingers plus a turning of the wrist.
Rex Applegate.
>After taking the navaja in either of the hands place the thumb upon the first third of the blade, whose edge should lie towards theinside, place yourself in guardia at a reasonable distance from your opponent, better far than near, with the unoccupied hand held againstthe body at the waist and in front of the abdomen, and in such adisposition so as to be ready to recieve the navaja when you wish tomake a cambio; the feet and legs are placed at equal distance from theoponent, a little open, and in such a manner that all the body facesfront and none to the side, as is seen in the present figure: but not whena hat, cap, jacket or mantle is used in either of the hands, in which caseyou should arrange yourself with the leg on the same side as the arm inwhich is the hat or cap, towards the front and in the manner of thefigure found in lesson eight, the Cambios
M.d.R.
Speaking on smaller knives, how small?
Self-defence has nothing to do with crime culture, even though in some countries it's considered as a crime.

Stick em with the pointy end.

Loser dies on the street, winner dies in the ambulance.

And retards keep repeating the same bullshit in every knife fighting thread

The secret to knife fighting is to bring a gun

There are reasons to hold it straightly. I just think combination of movements is for fucking retards unless you're using a longer blade suited for slashing. For a stabby kind of blade, that's like putting the kids gloves on. It seems great if you're standing off against someone that's got an exact amount of equal odds, real situations you don't have equal odds. A 120 pound female isn't going to stand off the same against a 300 pound guy as a 200 pound guy is. The mechanics of a slash sounds great on paper but realistically nobody is going to do those movements unless they're completely over confident, it's just showmanship and logical fallacy.
I can't recall rex applegate off hand so this is really the first time I've heard of this. That sounds great if you want to be defensive, a knife isn't a defensive weapon. If anyone gives you real advise about it, it's never going to be defensive like that. The grip thing sounds practical enough either way for leverage if you have a shitty single bladed knife for fine motor skill control over it and being precise, a real fight is going to be fucking manic and it doesn't matter if you're precise. Even if you do the most precise thing possible you're going to over do it and do it a second or third time just to make sure because the first thing probably didn't work.
How small of a knife doesn't really matter, I was talking more about taper on it. If you got a clip point or something it's kind of irrelevant. You're never going to find a short clip point. You'd have to go out of your way to get something like that. Clip points are usually 5+ inches. Anyway icepick grip with hammer blows is probably way more effective because you can use a hammer blow gripping a blade and still fist fight normally blade length or not rather than trying to stab as if we're pretending you're facing off someone holding a sword at the ready stance.

>Do you seriously believe that a knife this small can make a decent cut?
Yes even a pairing knife can cut deep, idiot.

What else is new we have these threads alot.

It's more about ergonomics than actual amounts of movements, 4 movements you could do theoretically is worse than if you are resetting from a movement and can transition to do it. Like if you take a overhand right hook you're committed to that like you would a slice or hack. If you get interrupted it's going to be with your palm outward and you don't need to be particularly forceful since there is a blade you can do a hammer blow a lot quicker than throwing a meaningful jab and the blade makes up for the lack of force.

youtube.com/watch?v=uDGHKyB3T_U

youtube.com/playlist?list=PL25C9F3919C5728F7

> I just think combination of movements is for fucking retards unless you're using a longer blade suited for slashing
I don't quite get it. Maybe because it's late or because my english is not perfect.
>a real fight is going to be fucking manic and it doesn't matter if you're precise
Have you seen any videos of real knife fights from Venezuela and Columbia? IMO, prescision really matters in a knife fight. It's not sword-waving.
> because you can use a hammer blow gripping a blade and still fist fight normally
I don't think that you would have to fistfight after you pull out a knife.

Rectangles and squares there buddy.

you can keep appealing to authority and i could write it off as a fallacy, because that's what it is.

But instead, i'm going to point out that applegate and the others were doing particular types of work with particular types of tools.
doesn't hold up if you go down south and get pressed against the wall or go to ground.

>Maybe because it's late or because my english is not perfect.
Or because I drank a bunch of beers before trying to explain this.
No I haven't seen any of those videos. If it's two equally looking people with equal weapons, it's a formal event and it's not a real fight. They're not genuinely trying to kill one another. I'm not saying this is the best way to do things, just that it's probably effective in some circumstances. A knife on knife fight is a weird artificial circumstance that doesn't happen normally. If you're getting into a contest like that foot work and chipping away at them with it held normally is probably better. That's not how a normal fight goes.
>I don't think that you would have to fistfight after you pull out a knife.
You're fighting with your fists, you just have a blade near it. You have way too defensive of a mindset thinking about backing off and re-engaging from a starting position. There are no mulligans.

>If it's two equally looking people with equal weapons, it's a formal event and it's not a real fight.
Not necessarily.
Check dailymotion or something like that.
>A knife on knife fight is a weird artificial circumstance that doesn't happen normally
Again, such things happen in Spain (from 18th century and until today knife culture is associated with gypsies, and they preserved knife culture even after Civil War and Franco regime) and spanish/portugese ex-colonies
>You're fighting with your fists, you just have a blade near it.
I doubt that such approach would work. Again, knife fights have more in common with fencing than boxing. And by fencing I mean historical fencing, not the sport version.

Defensively you're thinking of waiting things out and thinking it through, If I can't stab but I can use my off hand to bash someone, I'm going to bash them they're more worried about the blade. I don't care if their knife is folded a thousand times if that hand still works and it gets hit I'm going to keep bashing with it. If they think they can back off and wait it out after inflicting a thing. I'm already dead and I have nothing to lose. I completely understand why you're thinking the way you do, I just had that beat out of me when I was young. You're all in on something like that and have no reason to not just throw everything into it until you're not capable of doing it anymore. You're going into a fight all wrong if you're thinking otherwise.

Historical fencing can suck a fucking cock. You got the sport version because historical fencing was a thing nobody engaged in. They developed fancy movements because mercenaries and schools were getting hired to fight one another, they were trying to make it look flashy and not have casualties or it'd turn into a real conflict. They just wanted to get paid and look like they were doing something. Why was the casualty rate so high in England when they were not unified compared to a unified england attacking france? Or France and Italy. Hand to hand combat was a rare thing and just engaged in for show. A modern knife is nothing like a historic one anyway. Ooops my blade legally has to be 3 inches I better use historical fencing with it otherwise the guy with a swiss army knife is going to out technique me in a fight. lol no.

this guy has a 95 percent chance of surviving a knife attack, rather than the average of 85 percent

>A modern knife is nothing like a historic one anyway
Not really. Modern compiliation schools often use historical techniques as the basis.

>You got the sport version because historical fencing was a thing nobody engaged in.
What the fuck are you talking about.
>They developed fancy movements because mercenaries and schools were getting hired to fight one another, they were trying to make it look flashy and not have casualties or it'd turn into a real conflict.
You're clearly messing up theatrical and military fencing.

This might be of use to you.
I would recommend looking around on murdercube, but it's gone right now. So search that later.

Attached: knife infograph.jpg (1500x959, 592K)

No that's not a 95% chance of winning, that's a phyric victory as a best outcome. As soon as I have a reason to believe I could be seriously injured I've already lost and there is no reason not to commit as fully as possible.
Not that there werent serious consequences, nobody was going to work a minimum wage job to pay for a fighting school that they'd get fucked up and couldn't do a min wage job anymore. That shit was for the upper classes to have a one up on plebs, not to fuck up their peers. Armies were mostly mercenaries, they didn't care about killing or completing objectives, they just had to look like they were putting in an effort. Real conflicts were entirely different but that's when you get into sieges and stuff and by the time hand to hand happens in a siege people mostly already committed suicide.

Looks like you're finally wasted. Get some sleep.

Okay you're right and I'm already going. I know ther eis no minimum wage then the point is, you weren't going to do the whatever equivalent or risk not being able to do that anymore. Historical fencing schools and stuff, it required a fee. The students were well off and they had a social safety net they were taken care of no matter what. It was the intimidation factor that they could lose the fight and get wounded and carry on with their lives anyway. The risk factor was totally different in real fights vs. the school of martial arts for students vs. average people.
Have a merry christmas.

I just know you should always bring one to a gun fight

Thanks, I'm about to have a long sleepless night because I have to write some stuff for Uni and I feel like it's going to be a huge failure.

>grabs your dick
>rips it off
ÒwÓ

Speaking of historical fencing, here's russian recreation of duel of the mignons from Le Dame de Monsoreau.
Can any experts tell how accurate their fencing is?

kabar ek 4

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> huge failure
even if you do screw this up, you're still bigger than your mistakes.
over time, you can practice and get better.
you're valuable

>winning
i didn't say that

youtube.com/watch?v=_biZzD2XwyE

There's lots of HEMA sources on dagger fighting, however the weight and design of the dagger versus a modern knife makes it only partially analgous.

I imagine you're only interested in this because you want to fuck around with weapons though like most HEMA enthusiasts so you might still be interested.

youtu.be/WNIFpaRuocA

Carry a knife to win a fist fight. Carry a gun to win a knife fight.

Attached: CRKT.jpg (1024x768, 157K)

youtu.be/bteyMFfeaYk
Speaking of icepick grip

> lindy as a source
the stabby bong already debunked everything in this video.
also, the redneck vikings did, too.

Shut the fuck up lindybeige you anglo swine

Take a knife to every gun fight.
Take a knife to every fistfight.
always carry a knife, it's easy

ALL YOU NEED IS KNIFE
TA-TA-TA-DA-DA-DA-DA
KNIFE IS ALL YOU NEED

?

Attached: Image2[1].jpg (759x405, 37K)

What year is this?
More modern works advise to hold the knife straight.

this difference isn't the year. It's blade length
> 2 inch or less: blade down
> 2-8 inch: blade up
> 9- 13 inches: down
> longer than 15 inches: sword-swing that bitch
this is the way the mechanics of the human body work best

HEMA sources so daggers being used in both the underhand and ice pick grip, they both have their place. Even with a smaller blade you can use an ice pick grip as a defensive, hooking position although obviously a longer blade would be better.

>All-In Fighting
Seconded. There are PDFs online too if you look around.

End em with the sticky bit.

kys autist lel

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Pekiti tirsia kali is your best friend. Srs

Study were every major artery is on the human body, read up on Fairbairn and Sykes, and also go on YouTube and search “Historical European Martial Arts” (HEMA). That should get you squared away on slaying people with knives.

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I have a large collection of books dedicated to knife fighting, by far the best book I have is

FMA is more of an asset for what OP wants desu. Cross training in hema isn't a bad idea though.

>Historical knife fighting as it was present in Spain and lands under spanish influence has more in common with Destreza, the old fencing style formed into system by Jeronimo Carranza and his pupils.

Do you happen to know any book related to this? As a Spaniard I didn't have any idea but now I'm interested.

>Wat? Nobody would ever kick a guy with a knife, the leg would get cut.

I would. A guy with a knife is not dangerous if he can't walk.

Isn't knife fighting a meme? People are always talking about how in a real knife fight you'll both just end up cutting yourselves excessively

By "knife-fighting" I mean "how to best utilize knife in melee fight" and not "knife-to-knife fighting"

Thanks

>kabar ek 4

Sounds like something a Yorkshireman would say.

Please note that most HEMA manuals actually refer to pure thrusting daggers with triangular or rectangular cross-section. They won't do much cutting.

Check wikitenhauer for destreza manuals, it's not an area of study for me but I have some videos of old styles of spanish fencing.
youtu.be/umKZ-Y4T66Y

Reminded me of this.

Attached: curro_jimenez-.jpg (1000x563, 69K)

Manual del Baratero.
World history of knifing by Denis Cherevichnik.

>tfw the only part of Curro Jimenez that faced russian release was the 1978 movie, avalible in poor quality with soviet dub only
youtu.be/_b-4G74loJI

archive.org/details/Put_Em_Down_Take_Em_Out_Knife_Fighting_Techniques_from_Folsom_Pn_Don_Pentecost_P

Sounds like the exact kind of sentiment as I think about it.
He's got some good points but he's kind of not mentioning western texts are just pictures and no text whatsoever. He's kind of also interpreting it in a specific way that it's not just saying what not to do. I use to be really interested in philosophy when I'd talk to philosophy students a lot of times they were required to read something precisely just to point out why it's wrong. When regular people debate things to make a point often we use hyperbole or anology to point out flaws in a particular thing. I think he's mistaken in thinking a style might be trying to point out the most effective way to simply use a blade. I like lindy's videos but I don't think he thought this one out too much when studying some of those older documents for a few reasons. A lot of those texts would depict guys in fancy clothing, but using weapons that you wouldn't wear that kind of thing using. Some of it specifically was for against people wearing armor even though they weren't stylized that way in drawing. Daggers were usually suppose to be a coup de grace kind of thing toward chainmail portions of armor and you get more force from an icepick type hammer blow than holding it traditionally upward. Aside from that unarmored, there are probably a few other points.
A lot of times when I'd hang out with my friends one of the games we'd play was just taking turns punching one another. That might sound kind of weird without context it's that game called Mercy. You interlock your fingers standing opposite of someone, then you rastle and try to get the other person to call mercy. Except holding hands is sort of gay and boys will be boys. Anyway, It's totally random how long it'd last sometimes it'd be like sitting in a car I've quit after two or three hits I got a fucking charlie horse in my leg and fuck this mercy, more to the point though other times it'd go on for like half an hour or more
text limit

So sometimes after like a half hour or more of taking turns doing this sort of thing, after someone called mercy. Then someone will reveal they had a fist pack. I really don't think fist packs help just gripping them in your palm but a lot of guys I know swear by it and are not above lacking compunction to do it. A dagger handle can function that way. Although I'd be more in favor of a fist pack if parts of something were sticking out of my hand that I could use at weird angles. The way you hold a knife normally, you're never going to hit someone with your thumb and forefinger swinging your arm and expect it to do anything realistically. If you got a pommel from a dagger there though, that's going to be a bit of a fucking ouchie, especially if you catch someone in the noggin. If you do the reverse of that and just like swing your arm like an elbow but want more reach and you were doing it somewhat manic, rather than point a blade tip out having it more in line with your forearm you're getting the guard cross section there which is going to smart quite a bit more than knuckles, if it's a horse shoe and hand grenade sort of thing and you were too far forward you got that blade in line with your forearm that could cause a really ugly fucking gash type slice. It's sort of like when people do chicken fights, sometimes they strap blades on the things to make it not last as long. Although that's rather crude and not what they're doing in some of the older manuals they might have just taken it for granted that people understood that so they were showing more fine leveraging type movements that are possible in certain situations. I think he's just making a bit of an error in assuming they're trying to make the most optimal use of it just because they have it.

Anyway historical martial arts texts from the west are the worse freaking examples to draw things from. Having people unarmored could have simply been propaganda. The type of person that could afford that sort of thing likely would have been wearing a suit of armor and having to cut down someone not wearing it. It could have been intended to show it unarmored as a way to just to try convince people that sort of advantage isn't a big deal so they don't feel guilty over it, or psych them up to pretend like the armor isn't a big deal since muskets and other things could sometimes get through even plate, and plates were somewhat rare and not even favored till way later in history and they still had non-plate portions on full plate, and other types of armor that just used plates minimally. There was probably a few other things I forgot to mention but I'm going to discard my soap box now.
Fencing with rapiers and short/side swords seems like the kind of thing where it actually makes sense. When you get into sabers or hand and a half swords or bigger, slapping a piece of metal against another piece of metal is going to fuck up the cutting edge fairly badly. I got a difficult time believing anyone would resort to fucking up their expensive sword (and fixing it after) and not using a different weapon first like a spear/lance/axe/ polearm poleaxe whatever first till that breaks.