Polymer Cased Telescoped Ammunition Prices

Post cycle therapy?

It turns out the 5.56mm version is comparable to the longer handgun rounds - 1 mm shorter than 5.7x28 mm, for example. So you could easily have it in a mag that is in the pistol grip. Alternatively, you could make a P90 style gun with a 35 round mag on top.

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I had a similar thought. If we can square away CT ammo, there's no reason for smg's anymore, and conceivably, you could have handguns and rifle that share the same ammo and magazines. You still maintain the utility of being able to switch to a secondary, but you're not necessarily fucked by shitty traditional pistol round ballistics anymore.

Why can't the army just be realistic and work on designing a 5.56 belt fed that isn't 25 pounds instead of jerking people off with caseless for decades?
Keep developing it sure, not like it's a waste when shit like the black hole f35 program exists, but a modernized SAW with modern materials would be a better actual real world solution than uprooting 50 years of supply chain and arms development.

Empirically PCTA has cooler chamber, and to a lesser extent, barrel temperatures.
Preventing transfer to the chamber wall during the highest heat and highest pressure moments is far more significant than the thermal conductivity of the brass.
PCTA and Caseless should be cheaper at the same scale of production. Brass is by far the most expensive part of regular ball cartridges. The logistical savings are nice as well when we're consuming at least 30 mega tonnes of ammo a year

probably just waiting for directed energy or railguns at this point.

Based. I really had in mind more of just a powerful handgun caliber, eg, long 9mm or. 45 or something but I suppose it makes sense to just stick 5.56 in instead. Or you could get a more powerful cartridge that fits in a 9mm sized gun

I'm retarded
How can telescoping ammo be as effective as regular ammo when there's less room for powder?

There's propellant around the projectile, sometimes all the way around sometimes up to the ogive, unlike brass cased, and there's no necking.
So you end up with similar case capacities with shorter overall length and/or a diameter reduction. It's less about reducing actual volume but reducing effective volume.
LSAT specifically also used compressed high pressure powders to further reduce volume.

How does it affect accuracy?
Won't the bullet have to "jump" to meet the rifling?

OP here, are you larping as op or are you retarded.

Just add a forcing cone to the chamber geometry, like you do for revolvers.

>8mm Mauser pistol.

That’s like asking whether a kilogram of feathers or a kilogram of steel weighs more.

How does the powder around the projectile propel it forward? wouldn't it just be blown out the barrel ahead of the projectile?

Look at where the primer is. The combustion isn't instantaneous. It moves outward from that point. Hell, the primer going off alone would be enough to push the bullet out the front (This is a very common cause of bore obstructions).

Yeah, i realized it after posting. aside from longevity, people leaving plastic bits everywhere, and case strength, can't really think of any faults with this.

The biggest technological hurdle is extraction/ejection. Unless they put an aluminum rim or something on it, you have to have something like a revolving chamber and pushing the ammo through the front.

>So you could easily have it in a mag that is in the pistol grip
YES
I NEED THIS

but steel is heavier than feathers
youtube.com/watch?v=uH0hikcwjIA

youtube.com/watch?v=4-32RxlHiGU

Might be Overkill but you could really pack more power into a concealed carry package

Yes, /thread.

The one decent argument against polymer, in general, in a very large view, is that it's a less green technology. AFAIK there is no feasible re-loading of spent PCT casings, and they obviously can't just be melted down again. But also obviously this is not something which the military is particularly concerned with. Still, if someone demonstrated 'PCT' ammo made of explicitly renewable+degradable bio-plastics (without significant loss of durability/shelf-life), that would be awesome (just push the suppression of the tech even further into absurdity).

Caseless has a more legitimate durability issue (liquid damage) and it's relative advantage over polymer is marginal (next to the advantage of either over brass). You still need full extraction/ejection mechanisms, in any firearm! You can't just assume 100% nominal operation, and you still need to be able to make the gun safe.

They're actively suppressing small-arms technology, and any 'small' (individually-wielded) technology, in general. Just as they suppress the domestic firearms market, and personal aircraft, and soon enough automobiles (as soon as 'self-driving cars' exist you will see how ownership is aggressively discouraged and replaced by automated taxi services). The U.S. Military, and U.S. Government generally, are not good people.

and so much more. Uniform cross-section cartridges (which all these PCT are 'close enough') have long been a major 'missing piece' in small arms technology, limiting the progression to both much simpler and much more capable firearm designs.

The way they managed to force the meme that 'small arms tech has plateaued' while we still didn't have even a single small-arm with a fully end-to-end positively controlled feed system, or salvo/pulse fire, etc. (no such 'plateau' for crew-serviced aircraft guns, of course...), will end up hilarious in hindsight, if we ever do break out of this shit.

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Your second point is good.
Your first point you are talking out of your ass.
The majority of thermal transfer occurs from gasses after the round has left the neck of the case.

>So you could easily have it in a mag that is in the pistol grip
Aaaand, it's banned by the ATF for being "armor piercing" handgun ammunition.

Well, if lead ammunition dies off because of environmental shit, then what do we have left? Oh, right. Much harder metals, ceramics and polymer bullets? Yeah, I'm sure none of those are going to be AP from a pistol, right?
Oh, wait.
The whole AP pistol round thing is untenable and they know it.

Or backwards*
But neither are really a bad thing. It is different and adds a little more complexity but properly implemented its more reliable extraction, it lets you keep the chamber maximally cool which is nice for machine guns.
The biggest problem is dealing with the cylinder gap but at least it is even easier than with brass.

>The majority of thermal transfer occurs from gasses after the round has left the neck of the case.
Which is transferred to the barrel and then conducted to the chamber and doesn't happen (or at least is much much reduced depending on your exact design and cycle) with PCTA because those parts are separated.

Physics tends not to let one have their cake and eat it

Fucking FN FiveFiveSix pistols.

I wonder what a bolt-action PCT rifle would be like.
I'm trying to imagine how it would work with a swinging chamber like on an LSAT and that carbine that Textron showed off a couple years ago and it's throwing my brain on a loop.

I wish the Daisy V/L hadn't been ATF'd.
Rim fire stays around because it's so cheap and the usecase is very tolerant of failures. It's a perfect niche for baby's first caseless.
Scale it up from .22 Short power to .22LR and get maximally cheap plinking ammo. Other priming methods other than fire pistons could have come later.

No, he's not making it up. The experiment documents show that chamber and barrel temperatures come out of tests cooler than with brass ammo.

It's too fat. Shorter OAL is nice, but making up the difference by increasing the diameter by 50% just makes your standard capacity magazines even longer and more awkward to carry. There comes a point where having your ammo be a little longer and skinnier gets you more practical volume reduction than keeping it short and fat.

Bolt action is reversed. Push it forward to swing/cam chamber out and feed/extract in one motion, then pull back to lock into position. Alternatively use a pump action with a box magazine for a really simple implementation.
Physics has no preferences and reflects reality. Lower temperatures *are* the empirical result, no matter if you feel that the benefits should be mutually exclusive.

Or just use a manually operated version of the Steyr ACR

The swinging chamber mechanism is only in there because the LSAT has the retarded requirement of having to be able to function using both the PCT and nonexistent caseless ammunition.

LSAT ammo had the same diameter, shorter OAL and significantly lower weight by the end of the program.
I do wonder if you could use those weird forward-double-stacked SPIW magazines though. It'd be similar in width to a 7.62x51 or 7.62x54r magazine.

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No it's there because it's harder to do polymer rims and push-thru extraction is more reliable anyway.

>SP3

Huh. People only ever post pictures of the earlier types. My concerns are laid to rest. Figure out how to make it work in a conventional AR-15 operating mechanism and you'll be golden.

Should be about as reloadable as a shotgun hull.

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When you pull the bolt back you pull the chamber out along with it. The chamber locks into a position somewhere ahead of the magazine and something is moved to cover the other half of the breech block for safety. When the bolt is pushed forwards, the stripped fresh cartridge will push the spent one out, which will fall down an ejection chute just in front of the magazine. The cover mentioned before prevents it from flying over the gap and into the barrel. As the bolt passes over and partially encompasses the chamber the latter is unlocked and starts moving forwards with the bolt, eventually reattaching itself to the barrel.

>how to make a really complicated action for shits and giggles

Why not just recess the chamber inside the bolt?

Not sure what exactly you're suggesting as a modification, but it does give me another idea.

The chamber is part of the moving bolt and there's some sort of ejector rod through the bolt that would kick the spent case out the front as the bolt is traveling backwards. Then it feeds a new round up from the magazine into the chamber from the front as the bolt is pushed home.

Goddamn I am not looking forward to that shit being all over the woods.

To expand:

>bolt is closed, pull it back and as it passes over the magazine it picks up a cartridge nose first with the now-open back end of the chamber as it's moving backwards over the magazine.
>Fully closed, the front half of the bolt locks into the receiver like normal to keep the whole thing from flying out the back of the gun
>As the bolt begins moving forward the actual rear lockup on the chamber with the firing pin closes behind it
>If there was an empty case beforehand it got kicked out the front by the new one

Needs some way to manually eject a live round without having to use your finger or something, but I think it'd work. Or are we basically describing the same mechanism?

On second thought, that would work best with electrically-fired ammunition. A conventional trigger group/hammer/striker would be hard to fit behind the whole rearward feeding/forward ejecting motion.

The frontal rotary locking lugs would cam the rearward locking block open and closed.

Eventually cheaper, then the savings get negated when lead free bullets are mandated and only the army can use lead.

But user the Army is going to lead-free ammo already.

>ejection port just in front of the magazine

What about the people that use the magazine/magwell as a front grip?

Make it a bullpup.

>flabbergasted.karl.jpg

Well its a hypothetical bolt action challenge specifically without a rotating chamber doohickey, I don't think that's really an issue since that's a weird hold or stance for a bolt gun. Put a little flared chute there to let people know not to put their hand under it I guess.

The rotating / swinging chamber design from AAI seems to be a really good candidate for a bullpup layout. It's naturally forward ejecting so it's a complete waste to put it on a conventional carbine with a really short barrel like their demo design. Turning up the pressure to supermagnumgonnaexplode levels just to fight the weaknesses of a short barrel; why try so damned hard to fit a square peg into a round hole? Not to mention the mechanism is probably heavier than pull-extraction so putting it further back helps with the weight balance.

You know, I think a tube mag lever action would be easier. Have a falling block that contains the actual chamber. When you push the lever, the chamber drops, the next round pushes out the spent casing, ejecting downwards, and then you bring the now loaded chamber back up in line with the bore.

If PCT is disposable why not have an extraction system that punctures the case and drags it out?

Because if you want to eject a live round (like during a cease fire), you might not want to destroy the casing?

For a manually-operated weapon, specifically, has the right idea of copying the Steyr ACR falling-chamber. For box magazine feeding you should just load from the front of the chamber (in which case you can have a 'bolt'/mag-stripper over-travel mode for fully clearing the chamber), having rounds fall out a bottom ejection port behind the magazine (distant the length of the falling chamber).

Autoloading/select-fire weapons should probably all use revolver mechanisms. They could then have a mode to disconnect/block the gas system and be run 'backwards', with the primary input being the manually/externally driven spinning of the cylinder itself. For example hooking up an electric motor, or for burst (including pulse/salvo) fire with the entire mechanism reciprocating in the stock in recoil-operation. You could potentially achieve pulse/salvo fire very simply this way.

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Another good option is something along the lines of TheIdahoanShow's pump shotgun.
youtube.com/watch?v=J2tV-dsvPlg

Maybe create a system in which if the sear or firing pin is not depressed the extractor has no spring tension?

Recipe for FTE's, I'd think.

Commercially produced and military/police issued (not sure if both or which) in Russia as the Rys ('Lynx', but AFAIK no relation to the more well known AK-type autoloader) / RMB-93 shotgun.

youtube.com/watch?v=34r6W_POG38

It's kind of defeating the purpose, here. It's not really a great mechanism to begin with, and in any case suited almost solely to heavily rimmed and/or tapered (inconstant cross-section) cartridges. Barrel-actuated mechanisms in general are kind of crap. A lot of weight to move around, obvious potential accuracy impact.

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All this shit is just an answer for a question literally NO ONE is asking.

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>q: how do we increase small arm effectiveness?
>a: make them smaller, lighter, with more carried/loaded ammunition, and higher rates of fire eg. salvo/pulse burst fire (which also demands more carried/loaded ammunition)

>q2: ok, how do we make them smaller and lighter, with more carried/loaded ammunition
>a2: well how about we change case material?

and here we are

Name one modern military who has put out any request for proposals for this bullshit.

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The U.S. Military. Continually, for generations. SPIW, ACR, OICW, LSAT.

They've always been dragging their feet on actual adoption/implementation because of a general ideological opposition to the entire concept of 'small arms' (any they adopt WILL inevitably trickle down to their 'civilian' populations which are essentially their real constant nemesis, which they haven't yet managed to fully disarm and tame), but they're definitely making sure they maintain a decent awareness and grasp on the principles, keep the concept alive and ready to be implemented the instant any real war does kick off.

Lol are you paid by textron? None of these were specifically rfp for careless nor telescopes.

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Lol phone autocorrect caseless telescoped

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more like the government doesn't want to spend billions refitting troops with equipment that is only marginally better.

You mean they'd rather spend trillions on planes that still don't work properly and don't actually do a whole lot in today's MAD world.

yeah because the aerospace industry has the military in their pocket.

there will be a proxy war somewhere with PCT vs conventional arms before a full scale adoption happens

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LSAT specifically called for PCT, the US army had been looking into polymer cased for a while and the question being asked is "lighter, but still as effective, weapons". And it definitely is being asked. That's why we spent $30 million just in marginal costs to cut 5.5lbs from the m240. This is why they funded the *Lightweight* Small Arms Technologies project. Why every speech, article and trade show goes on about "reducing the load on the warfighter".
Don't be retard and try to defend hyperbole, just argue your case against the technology.

it's a phoneposter, probably a military mercenary welfare queen itself.

>Lower temperatures *are* the empirical result
Where does the heat go? Out the barrel? How hot can the polymer get before malfunctions?

The interior of the case is exceptionally hot. Finding a strong enough polymers that could handle the heat without failing has been one of the primary hold ups.

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