U.S. Military: we need a super compact rifle, Quick LMT and SIG make a shitbox SBR for us to adopt
>meanwhile the Russian military has already known about the need for such rifle since the early '90s.
Why is the U.S military so far behind with rifle doctrine compared to the russians? this isnt the only example
pic related, its the sig rattler, but made and adopted almost 40 years ago
Other urls found in this thread:
soldiersystems.net
en.wikipedia.org
twitter.com
U.S. Marines: We need a rifle that bridges the gap between rifle and LMG, quick adopt the M27 and magpul D60's
>Russia already knew this, and made the RPK 60 years ago
U.S. police: Guys we need SBR's for our cops because we can't hit shit with our pistols
>Russia has been equipping their police with AKS74u's for decades
Post Russian police webms pls
this but unironically.
>rpd before m60
>sks before m14
>7.62x39 before 5.56
>ak before ar
russia has had america beat in small arms concepts since ww2.
Because generally infantry to infantry firefights are a last resort for the US military.
Fucking checked
Spaced and Breadpilled
just not 545 before 556 right
kalashnikov said that 5.45 was a mistake
hello where are da proofs
Didn’t the commando come out in the ‘60s?
admittedly there are a few things the US made that heavily inspired slavshit:
>M1 Garand bolt and gas system used in AK 47 series
>AR 15 inspires AK 74 with smaller caliber round CAR 15 put the idea for the AKS-74U out there
>modern Russian soldiers put quad rails and tacticool American-style shit on their rifles all the time now
I do admit though the Russians got going on a lot more concepts that the west never picked up. the RPK is probably the best example, since the USMC is trying to basically copy the idea and give it an acog, but the AK was way ahead of the M1 and M14 back when they were used by the US and NATO, and the RPD totally beat the M60 for a squad automatic belt fed.
I hope they copy the PKM or PKP Pecheneg sometime soon because right now I'd say the PK pattern machine gun is the best belt fed full size cartridge in the world despite being made almost 60 years ago.
Quads of truth.
That's true.
t. russki
Idk that you can compare the sks to the m14 I feel it would be more accurately compared to the m1 since it’s got an internal mad and not detachable box mags originally
>still loses the Cold War
>Jow Forums: we need a new meme surplus rifle, sks's arent cheaper than a blow job anymore
>Jow Forums: we need a new meme surplus rifle, nuggets arent cheaper than a hand job anymore
>Jow Forums: we have run out of cheap milsurp, wut do?
We quit being poorfags and buy better rifles
>AR 15 inspires AK 74 with smaller caliber round CAR 15 put the idea for the AKS-74U out there
>modern Russian soldiers put quad rails and tacticool American-style shit on their rifles all the time now
>I hope they copy the PKM or PKP Pecheneg sometime soon because right now I'd say the PK pattern machine gun is the best belt fed full size cartridge in the world despite being made almost 60 years ago.
Poland already made a 7.62x51 PK variant, it's called UKM-2000
They aren't, and when they are right it's just luck and using or ripping off what already works, same as everyone else. The Nagant, mosin, Makarov, RPD, AK74, and DP28 were all shit failures. Stop fucking baiting you stupid vatnik.
Adnd it's shit
You're a shit failure
>I hope they copy the PKM or PKP
soldiersystems.net
Pretty much an answer to fuckheads lobbing potshots at 1500m with PKMs, though will probably never see the light of day because muh funding.
>rpd
Intermediate round, and unlike COD it was actually a shitty weapon.
>7.62x39mm
>better than 7.62x51mm
Yeah cause that's why 7.62x51mm died out and 7.62x39mm is adopted by nearly everyone... Oh yeah it's not.
>ak
You do have that though.
Dream big Jow Forumsomrade, dream big.
>.338 Norma
>US Mil just adopted .300 Win Mag on an official basis
Russians aren't superior. A 6 inch barrel in 5.56 or 5.45 is fucking retarded.
Yay! A rifle cartridge pushing out a 55 grain bullet at 1955 fps producing a mere 633 joules! All the while blinding you and deafening you with every single shot! What an amazing idea!
It's not like someone had a better idea.... Like loading a smaller, lighter, cheaper, cartridge deisgned for that barrel length in. Y'know like a 9mm +P producing 643 joules out of the same barrel. Or the good ol Soviet WW2 Era tokarev producing 688 joules.
But nope, we have to carry something bigger, heavier, louder, and obnoxiously flashy for that barrel length!
>I hope they copy the PKM or PKP Pecheneg sometime soon because right now I'd say the PK pattern machine gun is the best belt fed full size cartridge in the world despite being made almost 60 years ago.
Why not best of both worlds?
checked
different organizations and countries have different needs and doctrines that change over time.
So it's not necessarily a question of who is more advanced, after all "the west" had both compact carbines and SMGs that conceptually filled the same role well before the 90s (as did the russians obviously)
I got another one for you OP
US police 2018: our cops can't shoot for shit, let's give them a pistol with a folding stock!
>russia issued the PP-2000 in 2003
Jeez, AK-74U was made for pilots, tank crews and other military fags in extremly tight space on the battlefield. It just happend that there're shitton of those AKs, so police uses them too.
I wonder how strong that piston is in on full motion. Can it crack someones balls?
Nigger the mp7 came out in 2001, and the p90 was earlier..
>MG34 and -43 before RPD
>Stg before AK
>7.92x33 before 7.62x39
germany has had russia beat in small arms concepts since ww2
What will be the answer to AK12 and AK15?
>AK-74U
Hello call of duty
nothing because those are literally just ak-74s but different furniture
What is there to answer? Its just AK-74M/AK-103 with normal rail system, 2-round burst which is pointless for its rof and some really minor internal changes. US and many other countries had good rail systems decade ago, not to mention what russkies have very mediocre domestically produced sights to put on those rails, they literally copied Elcan for example
it was designed with detachable mags, the tyrant Stalin hated the idea of soldiers wasting ammunition quickly with detachable mags so they were removed per request.
That filename
I think RPD should be compared to M249 because of intermediate cartridge.
Both are true
The only firearms related things that came out of Russia that had any longevity outside of Russia are the AK and 7.62x39 cartridge
Nobody else gives a shit about any other Russian guns or cartridges
>The only firearms related things that came out of Russia that had any longevity outside of Russia are the AK
So like 98% of their firearms they've invented since the 40's?
Considering most of their guns are AK derivatives
Waste of digits you fucking vatnik third world mongoloid.
I love the potential of that thing. Hope I get to see some operators with it soon on liveleak
Small scale adoption and it's a different class of rifles. I love 300wm but the loads they use are kind of shit compared to whats out there for the caliber and for the weight the m2010 would have been better off with a 338 norma due to throat wear
> ka-boom
Because US weapon acquisition programs are always absolutely riddled with politics and contracts/lobbying, and not spending money more money than they already have usually wins out.
There's still nothing wrong with 5.45, speed and yaw are good.
>what is change of doctrine
he was a fudd
If only they could get it right with government.
They also nailed it on the 9x39 cartridge and subsequent firearms built around it. 9x39 is still a better subsonic round than 300memeout in terms of muzzle energy.
I still maintain Kalashnikov is a just a propaganda plant, and the ak-47 is a direct line of development on the stg. We stole the German physicists, and Russia got the small arms engineers. So after WWII, the Germans were beating the Germans at small arms development.
>what is moist
>what is nugget
Look at the original ak prototypes and tell me it's a stg ripoff.
the absolute state of slavic """humans"""
I didn't say it was a rip off. I'm saying that it was the starting point of the development for it. They took German small arms engineers and war bring back rifles and worked from there. I think Kalashnikov himself was used as a propaganda plant, which fits the Soviet method for narrative control. Like Vasily Zaytzev. I'm sure he was good, but they needed a hero. So they made one. They needed a brilliant "by the bootstraps" engineer to show off. So they made one.
We had mp5s for a long time and used smgs and shotguns for police without trouble.
>It's not like someone had a better idea.... Like loading a smaller, lighter, cheaper, cartridge deisgned for that barrel length in. Y'know like a 9mm +P producing 643 joules out of the same barrel. Or the good ol Soviet WW2 Era tokarev producing 688 joules.
It's easier to make and procure an SMG/PDW based on the same platform as your main infantry rifle that also uses the same ammo and magazines. It's the same reason SOCOM uses the MK18 instead of the MP5.
too bad their suppressor design is still shit and they didnt make more room in the magazine for a greater COAL
>The only firearms related things that came out of the USA that had any longevity outside of the USA are the AR and 5.56x45 cartridge
>"Yay! A rifle cartridge pushing out a 55 grain bullet at 1955 fps producing a mere 633 joules! All the while blinding you and deafening you with every single shot!"
>he thinks operators use a vietnam war era load
AK is based on the M1 Garand and MP-40 you mong. The STG-44 has almost nothing in common mechanically with the AK. The STG-45 is the direct ancestor of the CETME and G3.
>m2
>m60
>remington 700
>BHP
>M1911
>probably more
:^)
>longevity outside the US
>1911
Kek
>any of those except the ancient BHP being used outside of the USA in any large capacity
BHP was designed by a Belgian. :^)
A-user idk if you know what you are talking about if you think 7.62x39 is less widespread than 7.62x51
There's a reason HiPoint exists...
They had the SVT40
The last comparison is spot on but the others are fucking stupid
what defines large capacity?
A lot of countries have unique or several snipers, handguns, and machine guns to an extent.
M2, M16/M4, AK, PK are the most globally used
and browning did most of the work on the bhp but got dead
I backed my car into a cop car
the other day
well he just drove off
sometimes life's okay
The rpd in practice managed to be worse than the m60
Lmgs are ass
Why is the RPD bad? I always thought it was replaced by the RPK mostly for simplicity's sake.
This isn't out of being bwtter, just cheap imports primarily used by countries too poor to modernize, while x51 is used by pretty much every nato country
Probaby a controversial opinion but I think machine guns in intermediate calibers sick as a whole, the rpd was just particularly unreliable and had virtually no way to dissipate heat build up
The SKS fires an intermediate round instead of a full-size rifle round, any comparison between it and either of them is a stretch. SVT-40 is much more comparable to the M1 Garand, and there is really neither a western counterpart to the SKS nor a combloc counterpart to the M14.
People shouldn't think in such simple terms about arms development, it's what leads to idiots thinking that the AK is a clone of the STG-44. They had similar functionality, yes, but the countries had fundamentally different small arms doctrine and the guns themselves have fundamentally different design principles.
>exclamation marks
>>>/reddit/
I'm guessing the RPD came about because the USSR realized how much the German MG 34 and MG 42 outgunned the box-fed LMGs used by the Allies during the war. The DP was much better at what it did than the Bren or the BAR due to its magazine capacity, but the pan mag was awkward. The Soviets adopted the SKS in 7.62x39 since they came to the same conclusion the British did that full-size cartridges are overkill in an infantry rifle. The RPD makes sense when you consider it was adopted at the same time as the SKS. After the SKS was replaced by the AK, Stalin decided that an LMG based on the AK that uses the same magazines makes more sense from a manufacturing, training, and logistical standpoint.
>and there is really neither a western counterpart to the SKS
mini 14 noguns
vepr 762x54r no guns
buy some guns before you post next time
>either of those used by any military
The M14 and SKS were both obsolescent by the time they were adopted anyway. They were both retrofitted WWII designs that were quickly replaced once more level heads prevailed over the fudds and fuddskis, respectively.
Most of the box fed lmgs of the war were far more akin to battle rifles because of the caliber despite weight comparable to lmgs. My point of contention is that the whole saw/box fed lmg concept as a whole is a bad idea. When you look at the iar it's much more akin to a slightly heavier m16 rather than the relatively huge weight gain from rpks to aks. It's mostly just been a boondoggle to get m27s as the new standard rifle hence why they're making plans already to have entire squads have m27s.
U.S. military has an obsession with constantly moving the goal-line in their R&D.
>Most of the box fed lmgs of the war were far more akin to battle rifles because of the caliber despite weight comparable to lmgs.
Well, yes, and that's why the kind of sucked. They have the low capacity of postwar battle rifles (which was a poorly-conceived concept shoehorned into NATO by the US) combined with the weight of LMGs. It's the worst of both worlds. The BAR was originally designed to be hip-fired, which should tell you how poorly-conceived it actually was.
>My point of contention is that the whole saw/box fed lmg concept as a whole is a bad idea. When you look at the iar it's much more akin to a slightly heavier m16 rather than the relatively huge weight gain from rpks to aks. It's mostly just been a boondoggle to get m27s as the new standard rifle hence why they're making plans already to have entire squads have m27s.
I think it's a good idea when you consider that a SAW is only supposed to be marginally more useful than an assault rifle anyway. It just has to have a thicc barrel and maybe a couple of other small upgrades to handle more constant strings of fire to suppress the enemy. A beltfed SAW like the RPD or M249 are just too heavy for what they are. The RPK series could probably also be considered overweight and unwieldy because of its absurdly long barrel. I think the RPK-16 has interchangeable 14, 16, and 21 inch barrels at least.
I guess you could consider the M1A1 carbine analogous to the SKS, but they were intended to fill different roles.
At the point you're adding extra weight you may as well bring a mmg, which actually gains a considerably higher effective range over rifles. At best they have a slight disadvantage in overall weight but I think the benefits outweigh the cost, especially when in other belt fed saws despite being ammo compatible it either isn't practical or putting a mag in severely reduces reliability.
Wow OP, you've hit upon such a novel concept that nobody has ever discovered it before! Large militaries with bloated budgets and many tiers of corrupt officers can take a long time to come around to ideas that would be good in the field, because those militaries aren't run by the soldiers who serve, but by bureaucrats taking kickbacks and playing armchair quarterback. Favoring pet projects, being lobbied by arms manufacturers and sinking useful projects because they're put forward by your competition are all time-honored military traditions.
Kind of like they are in the Russian military. Come to think of it... pretty much every military for the duration of recorded history.
Unrelated, but I always liked that the Russians used the designer names in the designations. Makarov, Stechkin, Shpagin, Tokarev, Degtyarev, Mosin, Dragunov, etc. as well as meme names like Sipka, Vikhr, Vyhlop, Vintorez, Groza, Pernach, Bizon, Veresk, Vityaz or Satan. Also the sheer amount of patents and designs in comparison to 9001 AR and 1911 variants.
I agree, because, in a practical sense, ammo compatibility means almost nothing in the field when you're talking about a belt-fed LMG with a mag-fed assault rifle. Admittedly, the M249 can use M16 mags, but then it basically becomes an extremely heavy M16. The Soviets were waaay ahead of the Americans when they adopted the RPK with 40-round stick mags and 75-round drum mags. A good SAW can weigh a little more than an assault rifle as long as it does not even approach the weight of something like a PKM or M240B that are barely man-portable as it is. Anyone who owns a Vepr or one of the other civilian RPK clones can attest to how heavy they are compared to basic stamped AKs. That's why I think the IAR is they next step up from the RPK in that it's pretty much just a slightly beefed-up M16 with a piston to let it run a bit cooler.
>Satan
Tell us more about this one.
en.wikipedia.org
Not your typical small arm, but still.
>kalashnikov said it, so its automatically right
Is there a term for Russianfags like weeb and wehraboo?
Quads of truth, preach it nigga
The thing about using the m249 with mags is that it's unreliable, it damages mags And until recently pmags couldn't be used in the mag well at all.
vatnik
>no one outside the US uses the M2 browning
are all russians this stupid?