why didnt the russian and hungarian knights use pike and shot formations against the mongol horse archer hordes using crossbows instead of shot (since it wasnt invented yet). wouldnt heavily armored knights in a formation where half have pikes and half crossbows brutalize mongols?
Why didnt the russian and hungarian knights use pike and shot formations against the mongol horse archer hordes using...
Ryder Hall
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Jeremiah Brooks
brb heavy crossbows easily pen mongol armor and knights are immune to recurve with plate
Brody Torres
Probably because the Mongols would just feign retreat and kill your horses out from under you.
Gabriel Lewis
do you know what a pike and shot formation is? it developed hundreds of years later. it didnt involve horses although supporting heavy cavalry would be good. europeans got curbstomped trying to fight mongols in line warfare.
Brayden Peterson
Mongol tactics emphasized mobility over everything else. How are you going to beat a tumen of riders who can split up, surround you, with a largely static formation (minus guns)?
Sebastian Ortiz
the afghans did it by using a shitload of foot archers. fully plated europeans with crossbows would be immune and the mongols wouldnt be able to fight battles, only raid and harass.
James James
en.wikipedia.org
they had mobile shields, useful for fighting horse archers and shit like that.
en.wikipedia.org
also the Muscovites BTFO'd nomads later on, even when those nomads were assisted by ottoman cannons and janissaries.
Early Russian history is pretty cool, it's a constant struggle with the nomadic tribes to their south. Crimeans and Tatars constantly raided slavic lands, taking slaves and burning homes. The Tsars wanted to tame the fertile steppes and get peasants working down there.
It's a really interesting time in history. Cossacks often raided Muslim-held ports to free slaves and stuff, which is pretty neat.
Liam Jones
if mongols keep raiding your supply trains and burning your homes and fields, your army will starve pretty quickly.
That's the thing with mongols: they fight like absolute fucking turboniggers, but they're hard as fuck to completely beat. If they don't engage in open battle at least.
Ryan Evans
strategy is the same as technology, you cant use it if it does not exist yet, also it would have been a bad idea because any static formation will be useless against parthian tactics.
Daniel Lopez
literally nothing to do with the op
Benjamin Hall
pike formations against horse archers
you really did not think that through on wide flat terrain. Russia had no 'knights' it was a squalid backwater untouched by normal Frankish or roman civilisation derived from a loosely collected mob of Viking slavers. They did not have knights in finely made full plate armour. In the 13th century they had chainmail and not a great deal of it
Benjamin Allen
but the mongols did meet many european armies in open battle yet none used such tactics against mongols. they would just charge in line and get hosed down by horse archers.
Jayden Ward
Gonna walk around in heavy armor all day now? What kind of endurance do your men have? How are you going to keep any form of logistics going if you can't catch the Mongols? Problem with their expansion was they are pretty much reliant on steppe to feed those ponies. Get them off their native ground and they don't do anywhere near as well.
Jonathan Lewis
The Steppeniggers fought in similar ways the mongol used, so I think it's relevant.
The Russians mostly fought the successors of the mongol states: The Golden Horde, Great Horde, White Horde... They were all successors to the Genghis' Horde.
Jace Fisher
a third have pikes a third crossbows and a third swords/spears. yet europeans couldnt figure this out and got razed.
Landon Taylor
>a third crossbows
And how do you plan to hit fast moving light horsemen with those given only a third of your force armed with them and you are encircled by fuckers who keep sticking arrows in you while galloping at 20Km a hour?
Jonathan Garcia
>literally centuries of monday morning quarterbacking available
>still can't beat Mongols
John Jackson
shooting their horses and wearing plate armor and using my own heavy cavalry in between the multiple crossbow/pike formations to prevent flanking
Christopher Ortiz
The mongols would rush their chinese slave siege engineers in who would construct massive fire lances that would light your entire static formation on fire whilst simultaneously hurling the rotting corpses of dead ponies and your war fallen into your own formations. Then they'd capture you, roll you up in a rug, stomp you to death, and pour molten silver down the throat of your mother.
John Kelly
Plate armor, in Eastern Europe, in the 1200s?
Jace Gutierrez
a pike and crossbow formation would be pretty mobile especially if you broke them into 100 man sections with cavalry between each section. the mongols would be destroyed by such strategy in open battle.
Grayson Butler
>Foot infantry with pikes and crossbows
>Mobile
If this is the best defense you have, here is the song of your people:
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Bentley Long
Doesn't matter. Mongol tactics were leagues ahead of Europe at the time, even against large, well armored armies they'd crush them. A classic one was peppering a cavalry unit, inciting them to charge, and once they do, keep running right back into your main army which has left a gap in the middle, after which arrows come in from all sides. Even in full armor, it's likely your horse will die, at which point you are completely fucked. The mongols absolutely swept through Russia and poland, "muh knights" cannot beat a mongol army in open field. The communication, tactics, and speed were just too much.
Basically, fighting mongols at that time in open field was guaranteed death. The two places that the mongols truly got defeated: hungary/austria, and in india. In india, you see a hotter climate and rougher terrain which severely limited the effectiveness of horse archers. Same thing happened in hungary, the castles and rough terrain stopped them from using their usual tactics and weapons effectively.
Landon Martin
> The Mongol Empire launched several invasions into the Indian subcontinent from 1221 to 1327, with many of the later raids made by the unruly Qaraunas of Mongol origin. The Mongols occupied parts of modern Pakistan and other parts of Punjab for decades. As the Mongols progressed into the Indian hinterland and reached the outskirts of Delhi, the Delhi Sultanate led a campaign against them in which the Mongol army suffered serious defeats.
> Yfw pajeets were one of the few to actually btfo steppeniggers
Idk just do what the Indians did
Andrew Walker
your armoured knights would be a much more expensive and less mobile army than the mongols. Even if it worked you'd still have the problem of getting the mongols to actually fight that army head on.
Mass production of large crossbows (gastraphetes would do as well) and pavises is probably better. not much training would be needed, it's a lot cheaper, and you could get a good enough k/d in almost any context to make yourself not worth attacking, since even 30 peasants could get a handful of kills if they have the gear stockpiled reasonably close.
Juan Robinson
>russian
Because there was no Russia during that time. There was tribes who failed to unite against the horde. This was a good lesson how and why to unite tho. Still works.
Alexander Walker
>its more expensive
>lets lose so a quarter of our population can get killed and all our villages burned
they didnt field many crossbowman because they were not aware of how powerful they were in assymetric warfare