Why were all fighter pilots shit compared to the germans?

uhm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Kozhedub

Soviets lost their trained pilots early on by having them fly shitty planes, so when they got better ones they had no trained pilots to fly them.
German aces flew until they died.
In addition, their kill counts are probably exaggerated. I remember in Crimea or somewhere they shot down a lot more planes than Soviets actually deployed. Draw your own conclusions.

Also, I have no idea where you got the idea that Luftwaffe fighter arm was ''superior''...they failed against British and they failed to stop British and Americans from pummeling Germany.

uhm no

Just to add, it wasn't just planes. Soviet doctrine was shit. They sucked at air combat. Many of their aircraft even lacked radios.

Not far from truth but actually soviets used pilots mostly for escort missions/ground support and bomber formations interception while nazishits practiced free hunting that's why USSR gained air superiority by 1943 and continued to rape germans in the ass

Is this what they teach in amerishart schools?

We don't really have that much combat records to work with anyway. Not when exterior facts have been counted in. For instance during the Battle Of Britain, Luftwaffe fighter planes had just a minute available to fighting before they had to return because of the fuel lamps. Many Luftwaffe planes never made it back across the entire channel even when they did not see combat. English planes did not have this challenge, and tactics developed accordingly - instead of closing in to kill, they just needed to keep the Germans occupied for a little bit. So four English planes were enough to meet fifty German ones. Units like the Polish squadrons had more personal reasons for fighting and closed in more often, resulting in both more kills and more of their own killed. So who were the better pilots?

The superiority of Germany pilots is exaggerated by overstatement of kills, and the huge number of kills racked up in unusually favourable circumstances in the early war. Simply put the Luftwaffe went into 1939 far more ready to fight a modern war in equipment and training than their opponents.

German early war planes were superior to most of those they went up against in the: Polish, Norwegian, French, and USSR campaigns. These countries started the war flying vastly inferior planes. Additionally, the Luftwaffe had doctrinal advantages due to more experience in air combat and running an aerial campaign than their opponents (from the Spanish Civil War, Poland, Netherlands, Norway, France), most of their opponents were going in to air-to-air combat for the first time since WW1, or ever. In the time it took to learn these lessons and train their pilots in them severe losses were taken, to take a quote from Wikipedia:

>Bob Oxspring, a Pilot Officer in 66 Sqdn, and a future ace, commented:

>"We knew there was a lot wrong with our tactics during the Battle of Britain but it was one hell of a time to alter everything we had practiced.

> We had not time to experiment when we were in combat three and four times a day. Moreover we were getting fresh pilots straight out of Flying School who were trained –barely- to use the old type of close formation – they simply could not have coped with anything radically different."

Late war, Germany simply didn't have the planes, pilots and fuel to put many fighters in the air so no single allied pilot was likely to get many kills no matter how talented they were.

Norway, just to pick one, had a grand total fighter fleet of five Gloster Gladiators. There were no anti aircraft artillery besides a handful of Hotchkiss M1897 and some Colt M1917 - armaments best suited to fight biplanes. Norwegian air resistance lasted only a few hours, such as it was. British forces, whose intended invasion fleet for the conquest of Norway arrived just late enough to become potential rescuers from the evil German invasion instead, brought more Gladiators plus Skuas, Swordfishes, Walruses and Hurricanes.

Even the English arrival didn't change much. German planes flew largely unopposed and had few losses. Meanwhile the Allied forces suffered from a lack of local airstrips and supplies, having to land on ice covered lakes at a time when the snow was deep and soggy. Many planes had to be abandoned. It didn't really help that English planes had not been built with arctic winters in mind. What few planes made it out of the area intact were then sunk ith the carrier HMS Glorious.

Propaganda.

You act like the Brits had all the advantage, which was not the case. LW almost always had the numbers and altitude advantages, which in most cases should've been decisive. It's really embarrassing that LW lost as badly as they did.

youtu.be/uRf8WfuKkEc

>Many of their aircraft even lacked radios.

How does this even work?

With ground vehicles, you can signal with flags or send a guy to tell about a plan.

But a plane? How? Why? Was it just "follow the leader and hit his target"?

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>germans fought outnumbered
>germans fought against russian hordes
>germans rarely had a chance to rotate home to train new pilots or obtain new training
>germans lost the war and fought to the death
The biggest one was that there were so many more allied planes and allied pilots that they simply didn't have the huge number of engagements the german pilots were required to face.

Yes, you fly in formations. Radios in planes became widespread only in late 30's.

LW was fighting offensively to the limits of their range and had very little flight time over Britain before going bingo. The BF-110 heavy fighter had the range, but obviously it can't maneuver for shit so the British fighters could kill the BF-110 if they could catch it. The BF-109 and FW-190 were comparable to Spitfires with the Spitfire being slightly more maneuverable and slightly slower, the home-field advantage in terms of radar coordination of defense and fuel time adds up fast.

Overall the German War Machine exhausted itself by trying to do too much and bad strategic choices that lead to enormous attrition.

"Russian hordes'' are the biggest fucking meme of history.
For start, Soviets lost Ukraine and Belarus quite early in the war. After that, they had some 110-120 million citizens remaining, not counting losses and all the other shit. Their manpower pool wasn't larger than that of Germany, Romania, Hungary, Finland, Slovakia, Italy...
Soviets did manage to field more troops than Axis though.

You take off with a planned mission that at minimum is "Go to place, and kill stuff there, come home if you dont' die."

In regards to formations in the air, you look out the window and watch the flight leader and look out for the enemy. Hand and other visual signals can work.

>You could easily become an ace without even actually taking down a single plane alone by yourself. If the same standard was applied to everyone, and if the reported kills were anywhere near fact, most ww2 aces would probably lose their 'ace' status.
But the Luftwaffe didn't allow for partial kills and their method of counting was more strict than any of the allies, for example you couldn't get a kill for destroying an aircraft on the ground.

It is just another case of Germans spouting shit. At West Point they don't bother with most of the German sources on the East front they are taken with a grain of salt at the best.

>their method of counting was more strict than any of the allies

soviets had the strictest counting method, because they had a cash prize for top scoring aces
since there was money on the line, they had many rules to ensure no cheating happened
kills only counted if verified by a wingman and the wreckage could be examined

so any kills made over enemy territory was 90% unlikely to be counted since examining the wreck was out of the question
likewise if your wingman was busy and couldnt see that kill you made

the US had gun cameras, and their kills were tallied from that
partial kills were awarded as 0.5, with the 1 kill being split between the two who claimed the kill

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Yeager
>Ace in a Day
>On October 12, 1944, he became the first pilot in his group to make "ace in a day," downing five enemy aircraft in a single mission. Two of these kills were scored without firing a single shot: when he flew into firing position against a Messerschmitt Bf 109, the pilot of the aircraft panicked, breaking to starboard and colliding with his wingman. Yeager said both pilots bailed out.
I wonder what conversation the two 109 pilots had when they landed.

Let's limit this to just the Battle of Britain then.

English:
PLUS:
- immediately recovery of bailed-out, parachuted pilots from land and much of the sea
- strategy did not require eliminating the enemy
- a very efficient Just In Time tactic combined with a good spotting and radar system that spread their forces very well
- outstanding repair facilities
MINUS:
- fewer planes to work with
- limited production outpot and manufacturing resources

Germans:
PLUS:
- Many pilots with prior combat experience
- Numerical superiority on paper
- ME109 was slightly superior to Hurricane in some areas
MINUS:
- All pilots bailing over England were lost
- Many planes ran out of fuel and were ditched
- Stukas, and everything else dropping bombs, were slower than almost anything the English could put in the air
- Strategy was to eliminate the entire RAF
- very limited understanding of how English radar worked
- own radar systems were severely substandard
- target priorities were barely there and often contained many symbolic targets rather than military ones
- the distance between the return landing strips and the nearest quality repair facilities in Germany was painfully long

This list might get longer. I hate the editing options of this forum.

Also on the English Plus list was their Anti Aircraft division. Equipment list wasn't overly impressive compared to what Allied planes would later face over Germany, but a hundredandfifty heavy guns, as many HMGs and a hundred search lights is not a nice thing to face in a BF110.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Anti-Aircraft_Division_(United_Kingdom)

Reminder that he was also a bonafide liar and came home from sorties in which he claimed multiple E/A without having fired a single shot.

Because the Germans lied out of their asses regarding kill claims (no one could check afterwards) and the entire system was focused around getting the experten to kill as many as possible. When the Germans got to fight enemies that weren't flying in wooden coffins with shit-tier training they got slowly eaten alive. Not even slowly, to think of it.

. Also this.

Why were all other Starfighter parts distributors shit compared to the Germans?

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Way more engagements per pilot due to the short staff/available machines therefore more time to learn than an allied bomber escort who may or may not has the chance to fight off an attack.

>5 kills
>ace in a day
marsaille got 17 kills in a single day fighting the british over north africa. Its not just about russian hordes here. The luftwaffe pilots on the whole were ridiculously talented.
On the whole they have amazing feats.
>downing 7 fighters in a single sortie with 20 cannon shells and 60 rounds of machine gun ammo
>killing two planes in a single burst on multiple occasions
>scoring 4 victories in a single minute
>many became aces with the me 262, even in the last months of the war

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*Destroys your cities and industry*

Heh nothin personnel kid

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German units were so badly depleted after Barbarossa that a regular strength Soviet battalion would look like a division.

No, Japs had the best training early to mid war. Germans had good pilots and planes but the 200+ aces were shooting down I-16's , Po2's , IL-2's without a rear gunnner, Yak-1's and shit like that, it really wasnt hard when Russians had zero training, shit planes and they were also on the defansive.

Most of the early war English airforces in North Africa were Gloster Gladiators. They had a tough job dealing with the German ME109s even if they put up a good show against the Italian planes - who had a habit of turning homeward at the first sight of an enemy.

Of course the Luftwaffe had some genuine aces among them. Germany had been spending the entire 1930s building up piloting to a godlike activity and making the sport available to everone who wanted to pursue it. Why wouldn't there be plenty of good talent by 1940? We just need to acept that we will probably never know exactly who achieved exactly what. Fog of war. We only know who died, and who survived.

A large percentage of American pilots never saw an enemy aircraft.

Hans Joachim Marseille is actually one of the few with a extremely well documented and researched pilots.
His kill claims have been researched to the point where squadron and enemy aircraft type/numbers and even pilots have been identified. The research also has corrections to his claims. Such as confusion on the type of aircraft shot down.
Out of all his kills, only 6 could not be confirmed with research.

The author of the research is Russell Brown, a Australian historian writing a book on P-40s in North Africa and the middle east. Primarily following RAAF squadrons 450 and 3.

Great, so why are we debating? It's like calling the M18 hellcat good for its kill ratios while going against literal untrained 16 year olds end war.

Not really, they were good up until 1943 the Germans were good up until 1945

>they were good up until 1943
If the Jap pilots were so good how come they lost more aircraft and crew in every major battle and their entire pilot cadre was destroyed in one year?

Most of Germany's air force were rookies who really didn't have the hours they needed by early '44.

All the history texts I've read say most German pilots weren't worth shit by 44.

Why P40s and not Spitfire Vs?

German air radar was decent not substandard. Most of the other points are correct though.

>built for BnZ
>turnfighters

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Because America sent their aces back home to train new pilots while Germany kept them on the front line fighting till they died.

>Russian hordes are a meme

Rzhev, Kursk, etc.

Not impressed by Alliedboos and their mongrel thought processes desu. The Allies simply had more, and while the German Army and Air Force outperformed most of their counterparts on an operational level, the fact that the Germans lost to geopolitics and allocation of resources is simply a fact most mutts, britbongs and slavniggers cannot handle.

Aside from military academies in general being nothing more than officer manufacturing facilities West Point is not really that great.

>cash prizes in a planned economy that is aiming to abolish currency actually being worth anything

Your logic is whack my dude

If the whole basis of your argument is that you can’t trust the reporters of the kill claims then let’s not even consider kill ratios.

Or we could not be mentally retarded and realize the LW was active in far more fronts and flying far more missions than most other air forces at the time so a higher kill count is not unfeasible in the least.

How about a source to one of those texts?

Luftwaffe by 1944 was in deep shit. On the eastern front, the Russians were now getting the numbers of modern planes they needed to meet and destroy the German Stukas and the other increasingly dated planes that Luftwaffe had moved eastwards. On the west front, the pinprick night attacks of the RAF was finally being dwarfed by the massive day bombing raids by the US AF. At home, the factories making planes and more importantly, the engine factories, where being bombed to shit and rubble. What new and exciting models were coughed up by the designers was put into the air before testing was barely started.

Guys like Hans-Ulirich Rudel were still excelling and he was not alone. They were being shot down, glued together and fed painkillers and sent up again as soon as they could climb into the seat. But they were staying alive by being smart enough to not attack a dozen enemy planes alone any more, by looking for enemy trucks rather than enemy ack ack batteries, and by returning to base before the fuel tank was completely below the 'empty' marking. Makes sense to me but sure affects the high score.

if germans only got more shoot downs because they were going against unskilled russians how come the same thing happened in ww1?

Not him but, by the spring of 1944 most German pilots had only around half the flight hours of their American and British counterparts and were backed up only by a much smaller and deteriorating core of veterans. Last Year of the Luftwaffe page 15.

You don’t need to be good if you can Hydra the enemy to death. Every time the G*ermans shot down a plane the US would just send another ship loaded with planes across the ocean.

Americans are vatniks of the sky?

>pinprick night attacks of the RAF
dont think pinprick is a fair description, the RAF dropped as many bombs in 1944 and 45 as the USAAF in terms of tonnage, they flew less sorties but with heavier bombloads

Look, Hamburg was only a minor raid and you're really blowing things out of proportion here.