Most executioner swords around the world are curved. The European one is an exception: it's straight, has no distal taper and has no pointy end.
Why is this? Is it better for a blade of this kind to be straight or curved? Which sword is actually better at decapitating?
Heft to crush/break the spine.
Curved design is inherently better.
>why did the Europeans use straight swords
Because they look like crosses and curved swords look like crescents. The Europeans fought Muslims and curved blades look like the Muslim crescent.
wat. Euros used plenty of curved swords. Muslims used plenty of straight cruciform swords too.
Points are worthless for executions. You're never going to be stabbing the guy, just swinging overhead.
Woah, mind blown if true
Curved is better for cutting. When europeans rationalized the head cutting thing, they invented the angled guillotine blade.
As for why executioner swords are straight: Likely because the common military sword was straight. Curved swords of various forms existed, but they were generally less common and generally more used by commoners (heh) rather than nobles or professional soldiers. So it seems reasonable they would use the 'official' form of sword for such a purpose. You can also see this in the guard, which is entirelly pointless on such a sword.
>Because they look like crosses and curved swords look like crescents. The Europeans fought Muslims and curved blades look like the Muslim crescent.
The religious significance of european straight swords is very dubious. Btw. you can see in this collection of executioner swords how one of the guards makes it look not like a cross at all. But is is possible that curved swords were considered somewhat foreign on top of being a lower class thing.
1. Executions were rare, even in medival european times.
2. Pretty much any blade will do when hitting victim who has his neck streched out and is not moving.
Retard
>Most executioner swords around the world are curved.
Are they? It seems to me that except for this specific European Renaissance style of executioner's sword having specific sword styles just for executions is exceedingly rare. To the point where I can only point to two thee variants that may be intended specifically for executions, but none of which I'd consider confirmed as such. (And of those, one is straight.) So what list of these things are you basing that statement on?
I know of the panabas, dadaos (chinese), koras (nepali) and scimitars, all of which were commonly used for executions in different countries (scimitars still used in some muslim countries).
European executioners are more skilled
While they may have been commonly used for executions, none of those seem to be specifically designed for that job. They're simply weapons that were good at cutting and thus ended up used for executions in much the same way that regular swords would be used for beheadings in Europe before the special executioner's sword style appeared.
Beheadings were rare because they were mostly reserved for nobility. Hangings were very frequent.
>Curved swords of various forms existed, but they were generally less common and generally more used by commoners (heh) rather than nobles or professional soldiers.
Only curved swords I can think of are the falchion, which was a prevalently military weapon (always depicted in the arms of knights, clearly meant for use with shield) and the early sabres, which were also mostly military weapons.
What commoner swords were curved? What swords were prevalently used by commoners, for that matter?
Well, off the top of my head, the grosse messer.
Legally speaking, it was a knife. A very, very long, mildly curved knife. No swords here, no sir. Especially not if you're asking on behalf of a sword maker's guild. Definitely just a knife, you can tell because the guys who make them are knife makers who only make knives.
>the grosse messer
I guess that counts. The military cousin was the real curved sword of the family, but even the civilian edition had a bit of curve to it.
You are talking out of your arse!
Read a book!
It's all about weapon evolution. Arrows, then spears, then a long spear who's entire face could chop.
Might as well use this thread: is mass ever desirable in a sword?
Let's say some fictional material that would let you have any sword, exactly with the properties it has in terms of flexibility, sharpness, etc but with a blade that had half the mass of a steel one (again: it's fantasy). Would it have any disadvantages? Is blade mass ever useful?
Cutting ability primarily.
mass is always useful up to a certain point. that point where its too heavy would depend on the user.
There's no executioner's sword in China really. Any old sword is dragooned into the job.
Pic related. Two provincial executioners. One has a high quality Wodao, the other a beefy Dadao.
The lighter the sword, the shittier the chop. Also it would make it easier for your opponent to knock your sword out of the way, harder for you to parry.
In general, it's best for a sword to be as heavy as you can handle.
t. Neversworded
For applications where actually fencing might not be a big issue. IE: Cavalry running down a bunch of idiots with now-fired muskets. Otherwise, I would want the lighter one. Yes, we are talking about the difference of about a pound, but if literally all else is equal why not?
>Most executioner swords around the world are curved. The European one is an exception
Europeans use axes for executions
Only the English did, continental Europe used Swords. >has no distal taper
No, it has normal distal taper.
For your question, executions were ritualized, and getting beheaded by the sword was seen as the best way to go, it was the only style of execution were you're body was still considered fit for christian burial and it was over in an instant, so it was regarded as a mercy punishment, reserved to citizens or as act of mercy by the court.
In all other cases the bodies of the executed would either remain at the place of execution and rot there without a proper grave or would be destroyed as part of punishment itself.
More likely it had more to do with social standing and the guild system. Executioners were well payed but rather low if not very ostracized. Swords for people like nobility tended to be restricted to people from lower classes. It's sort of like if the executioner goes to the sword guild instead of using an axe he asks for something with a bit more heft but nobility doesn't want their type of blade associated with that kind of execution so the guild offers it without a tip pointed sort of thing, then it just becomes a custom/trend.
Curved swords were more popular in Eastern Europe, western Europe tended to have more Nordic influence and they liked their hand me down swords which tended to be broad and straight. Eastern Europeans tended to think they had more roots in Scythian horse archer descent and tended to adopt further Eastern concepts since the sythian nomads had a lot of campaign/conquests in that region, so nobility from those areas were more likely to use curved blades as a status symbol reminiscent on war conquests of their ancestors.
Here's a couple of 18th century execution axes from Norway. Used up to about 1850.
This was the axe for beheadings. The blade edge is about 30 cm long
This was the other blade used in conjunction with the first one, for minor jobs like chopping off hands. Really bad boys would get the hands or further limbs chopped off first, THEN get beheaded.
The axe edge of this one is about 22 cm.
Swords were the symbol of justice, this is deeply rooted in European culture and predates Christianity. The Germanic god of justice Thyr was associated with the sword and the sword became universal symbol of justice, each court would present one as symbol of power over life and death
A lot of pre christian Germanic tradition is contained in medieval penal justice, breaking at the wheel for er example is completely undiluted Germanic sacrifice ritual that became the most notorious punishment for vicious crimes. In other punishments the executioner "reconciles" you with "the gods" again, especially in early and high medieval, this perception changes over time to a punisher as he was seen in late medieval and early modern period.
For the "terminal effects" a bit of mass certainly helps as it gives the blade more momentum to punch through flesh with. As for the challenge of getting there, comparing the two longsword trainers I have one is lighter and has less of a blade presence than the other. This make sit a bit easier to dart around with in quick attacks and parries. On the other hand it has less authority in the bind, allowing the somewhat heavier blade to "power through" a bit in cases that' otherwise be a draw. Now all said and done though the differences are quite minor between them, before anyone goes and makes a huge deal out of this.
Things vary. In general the English were all about the axe, and the Germans preferred the sword. A quick google finds some material suggesting at leats occasional axe use in France, and up here in Scandinavia it used to be a class thing where noblemen got the sword and commoners the axe. To these geographical variations we probably need to add variations over time as well, whatever those may be.
Axe or sword should matter little for what condition your remains ended up in. Whether the body was fit for Christian burial seems like an odd concern, surely they must have buried a few mangled/charred/rotten/gnawed bits at times after various accidents? And at least here in Sweden you simply wouldn't get buried in blessed soil (ie the church cemetery) regardless after an execution, that was part of the punishment.
Literally axes for carving wood. Why the fuck would they use special axes when any axe carving axe can do the same work.
>Whether the body was fit for Christian burial seems like an odd concern
It was the main and only concern of most people at the time, a desecrated body means purgatory until judgment day, the max penalty possible at the time. Execution with anything but the sword would make one "dishonorable" cast outside of society and so it was a regular privilege of Burgers that even for heinous crimes their sentence would be reduced to execution by the sword.
Back in the day additional torture before execution was seen as punishment, but the real punishment was the destruction of the body after execution, no burial means no afterlife and that was the central part of all existence.
Google hewing axe
No, he’s not.
You’re the one who needs to read a book.
Beheading was very common and by no means it was reserved to nobility. Hangings were common too. What is true however is that nobility normally would be spared from dishonoring executions and be given a beheading instead.
To add to this, if the judge was having a laugh he would just sentence a behading without specifying sword or axe. When the convict is walked up the executioner is standing there with a sword and he i s reliefed. then at the last moment an axe is pulled out so that the last thoughts this man has is that he is going to suffer in hell for an eternity.
No, but thanks for trying.
These are extremely well documented axes, down to who used them on what criminals. If museum artifacts aren't good enough for you, what is?
The executioner's sword emerges in a setting where it isn't just noblemen who can carry swords, free burgers do as well. Regular swords had already seen plenty of use for execution at this time as well, so too late to bolt the stable on that horse. And the swords would IIRC tend to be city property rather than property of the headsman.
I meant an odd concern to have when looking at the state of the corpse, as people who died grisly deaths (major fire, bear lunch, some such) should still be quite "buriable" despite there not being a terrible lot in the coffin. So the decision of whether or not someone gets a Christian burial wouldn't seem to be about the state of the body, or about which tool brought it there, but purely a part of the sentence itself. Here in Sweden no one who was executed got such a funeral, but I guess elsewhere they may have given that to some, and then matched the chopping tool to the upcoming funeral.
They seem related, yes. Here in Sweden the regular word for axe is "yxa", but the hewing axes are instead called "bila", with executioner's axes also ending up with the latter term as well. Looking form above however the hewing axe meant for timber will tend to give itself away by having the blade offset to allow a more shallow cutting angle along the surface of the log, while the executioner would have his blade set in the middle like a normal axe.
Nonsense level 100
Curved is only easier to cut with, someone with skill can easily cut the same with straight blades.
Anywho the executioner swords were wide blades to deliver the cut to the back of nobles necks. Master swordsmen would do these. The plebs got the rope or an axe.
Literature is pretty clear on this, everything else than beheading was seen as ritually unclean and barred you from burial on a christian graveyard. People condemned to hanging would be left to rot on the rope until the remains felt to the ground by themselves, they then where tossed into the bone hole at the base of the gallows. Executions did contain so much rituals and taboos it it hard to imagine for a modern European, but back in the day drinking from the same cup as the executioner could cast you out of society for good. But back in the day, the afterlife was everything and central concern, getting killed in a horrible way was just of minor concern.
For various offenses, sins against nature, black magic, counterfeiting currency, heresy against god could get you sentence where your body would be entirely destroyed by fire, in other cases like the wheel it was left to the birds and in some cases like drowning or burial alive the body would stay intact and just lay without christian sacraments.
Beheading was literally the only death sentence in the HRE that was seen as honorable and enabled you a regular afterlife, hence it was so popular.
Wouldnt be a question of where and when? I know that china used both curved amd straight swords at a different time in history while sanson used an straight executioner sword before the guillotine was made around french revolution
>giggling at bone hole
>in the HRE
There was and is more to Europe than the HRE. What you say may be applicable there, but it won't be applicable everywhere, things vary. Which is why I've tried to be pretty careful here to point out for where various customs and such I've mention apply, top of the very first thing I said in the thread on executions being just that things vary depending on where and when.
sorry, bone pit maybe more appropriate. But yeah, your remains would be picked clean by birds and then end up in a mass burial pit below the gallows.
Only nobles and important people were executed with the sword. It is a longsword because of the knightly / heritage tradition. No point because of adaptation to specifics.
Normally beheadings were done by axe, which is btw better than a curved sword.
But KM, we are talking about straight executioners swords, those were only used in the HRE / everything that got Franked, no?
>Only nobles and important people were executed with the sword.
Bullshit, now get out of this thread you historylet.
We used them here in Sweden for nobility. Given that a French executioner was brought in to behead Anne Boleyn I would expect the French to use swords as well at times, and curved ones seem rather unlikely.
>French
I know the execution by sword was common in parts of what is today France, but afaik the tradition was stronger in the former Frankish and Burgundian dominions. It was standard law all over the HRE including Slavic and Italian parts.
I thought they used axes wielded by big guys in leather masks to execute people in Europe.
I thought they used steel balls
That's retarded. My belief at least comes from every movie showing executioners as looking like this.
This is demonstrably wrong.
If all other aspects of the sword are they same. The lighter version would be easier to handle and respond with so yes a theoretical metal with all the exact same hardness, toughness, and tensile strength of steel but at the same time weighing less would be fantastic.
On a related by slightly more serious note, the coat in is for the executioner to wear to work.
Pic related is the famous executioner Master Franz of Nuremberg. He kept a diary which is good reading to give insight in an executioners life and there is tons of secondary literature on him. "The Faithful Executioner" is a nice English book on him.
You're a fucking idiot as well. Telling someone to just read a book is ignorant.
As for beheadings, compared to the frequency of hangings they weren't commonplace. It depends on the crime as to the form of execution
Makes the beheaded more smooth less chance to miss than with a small wood axe, cut is more clean, blade is heavier giving it more power on the downswing relying less on execution strength. You seem horribly unintelligent.
Pic related is a 19th century execution in Switzerland, the executioner is from the Mengis family who had this job for centuries.
And this is an execution from 1820 in Stuttgart Germany.
>Curved design is inherently better.
For fighting unarmored peasants yeah, but I'd like to see you try and pierce through some armor with a curved sword.
Weird about the downward sweeping edges. Were those two swords carried by a western medieval Kenshin?
hung drawn quartered decapitated
buried in five different places
yet they send flowers to your family
Any cases where the executioner was drunk and accidentally disemboweled the fellow holding the hair?
i assume the positioning of the executioners is artistic license. I would imagine they would stand opposite the charged person so that he who holds the head would have his guts outside of swinging distance
Being the dude holding the guys head up for the event to swipe off seems rather uncomfy
They were not all masters at their craft
>Jack Ketch, byname of John Ketch, (died November 1686), English executioner notorious for his barbarous inefficiency; for nearly two centuries after his death his nickname was popularly applied to all of England’s executioners. Ketch is believed to have received his appointment as public hangman in 1663. The first recorded mention of him appears in an anti-Roman Catholic broadside published in 1678 entitled The Plotters Ballad; Being Jack Ketch’s Incomparable Receipt for the Cure of Traytorous Recusants; or Wholsesome Physick for a Popish Contagion. He is reported to have executed Lord William Russell (1683) in a brutal and inept manner, and in 1685 he took at least eight strokes of the axe in beheading James Scott, duke of Monmouth.
Holy shit, you're retarded.
what a cunt.
To reach the guts of the assistant the executioner must stand so close to the prisoner that the foible or guard of the sword will be stopped by that before the outer part gets to anyone's bowels.
As for drunkenness and botched beheadings from what I remember of Abbott's Execution that was more of an English thing, while the German's kept much higher professional standard there. Still I'm sure some kind of accidents did happen at times.
While not exactly opposite I suspect the position shown here will keep him quite safe. The swords used aren't terribly long. A sturdy gauntlet for the hand seems like it'd be good for his peace of mind though if nothing else.
Yes, drunken executioners and botched executions where a big thing at the time, a scandal at best, this could end badly, lynch mobs killing the executioner after he fucked up his job are not unheard of.
As long as you're not the one in the chair everything is fine.
No, most period depictions show this, the assistant would held the head up and steady and the executioner would strike from behind.
My God you folks are dumb. Arabs, Persians, Berbers, Kurds, Copts, Assyrians, Jews, etc. used straight swords.
Curved swords are a TURKIC meme that got popular during the late Middle Ages.
Its an executioner's sword... its not made for combat so why does it matter?
Its just a very wide and tip heavy longsword designed for a more powerfull chop. I suspect that the flat tip just became a bit of a trademark with an executioner sword since it didnt need a point.
Curved and straight swords handle and operate very differently. While a curved blade is geared more towards cutting, it doesnt really make a difference in the end, both swords would very easily chop off a head. And straight swords are what everyone was used to.
Add in the christian symbolism of a longsword somewhere too.
In a slashing test the curved blade is better, in a stabbing test the straight blade is better, in an overall effectiveness test the polearm is better
I thought cutting bone wasn't easy. How come big swords behead so easily? Can they easily chop off limbs, too?
A big sword has a lot of mass, which is brought down on a neck just a few inches wide. If it slides between two neck bones it will do nicely. If the hack is clumsy or unlucky it will attempt to crush the neck bones instead, which even with a fuck ass heavy sword will be a tough job in the hands of a normal person. Or, wait, maybe you was being ironic?
No, I wasn't being ironic. I've never handled a sword. I just thought chopping through bone is actually something weapons are not that good at, unless it's like a poleaxe or a very heavy axe.
Well they were never going to stab someone with it, so why have a pointed end?
An Axe is better for this job anyways.