Why didn't the Soviets make SKS rifles in 7.62x54r and put them into service as DMR's?
Why didn't the Soviets make SKS rifles in 7.62x54r and put them into service as DMR's?
Nathan Wright
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Hudson Moore
you expect a country that believes in communism to make good decisions?
James Phillips
Like the SVT-40?
Sebastian Richardson
????????
Xavier Gray
I think the action wouldn't have played as nice with the full sized cartridge,. It would basically be a SVT anyway at that point and there was a reason they didn't press those into DMR. I think it might have also been a doctrine thing where early on they did not see the need for a semi auto marksman rifle. DMR concept came about a little later than the late 40s/50s.
Grayson Richardson
Like a simpler SVT-40, yes. SKS prototypes during world war two were made in 54r if I recall correctly, there's no good reason this wasn't done.
Isaac Rivera
Because they were in the midst of a decade-long honeymoon with SMGs after all the urban warfare they endured and the SVT sniper wound up being a flop.
Christian Cook
54r simonov action did exist, but much less common than the svt. The tilting bolt is less inherently accurate than a rotating bolt like the AK or SVD, maing it less well suited to a DMR role.
>I think the action wouldn't have played as nice with the full sized cartridge
The SKS is literally a scaled down anti tank rifle.
Luis Morgan
The SKS pretty much had the same mechanism as the SVT-40 and PTRS-41. They were all designed by Simonov. I believe 7.62x54r was only used by the USSR immediately after WWII and after the adoption of the SKS in the DP series of machine guns, which was replaced by the PK in the 1960’s. The SVD was also adopted in the 60’s.
Jace Morales
Fpbp
Robert Butler
Angel Butler
Simonov did not design the SVT.
Tokarev designed the SVT and was a fan of tilting bolts. This rubbed of on Simonov, one of his students. Federov was also a fan of tiliting locking bolts and taught mechanical design and drafting during the same period Simonov was studying.
Simonov's first accepted rifle design was the SVS and it was inspired by the Federov automatic rifle. It was deemed not suitable for widespread adoption and was withdrawn from service but gave inspiration to the Czech VZ58.
Simonov's next adopted design was the PTRS-41. This action was then scaled down to 7.62x54 for testing then 7.62x39 for adoption as the SKS-45.
Connor Perry
What is the AVS-36?
James Rivera
They didn't need to. They had the Mosin and then about a decade later the SVD.
Noah Morris
The Russians already had the SVT-40 in 54r. Siminov made the AVS-36, it had little success. So with the adoption of the M43 cartridge, aka 7.62x39, Siminov built a rifle to accept it using design improvements taken from the SVT40. Boom the SKS is born and put into large scale production in 1948.
Jacob Rodriguez
Commies btfo
Cameron Moore
it was vodka night that day
Hunter Jackson
>”Russian weapons are shit they are no threat to us.”
>US soldier before getting blown up by RPG7
Mason Gonzalez
This. Bolshekikes btfo.
Jose Brooks
What? The US usually respected Soviets arms, at least the small arms
Colton Green
not him but there's a pretty big distinction between an anti-personnel/tank rifle and a marksmanship rifle. the main one being that anti personnel and anti tank rifles aren't necessarily accurate guns that you can take good shots with at over 500m away from a target. the PTRS and PTRD were meant to be cheap guns that could be used effectively and ranges where its operator would be close enough to hit the broadside of a tank but not have to be scared of the infantry coming along with it. therefore just having a system that handles larger rounds doesn't necessarily mean having a good DMR gun.
the SVT 40 actually encountered this problem in WW2- the Soviets really wanted it to be their big fancy gun for officers and marksmen and high ranking troops, but when it came time to mount optics on the SVT's they found out it held zero like a piece of shit. hence you see soviet snipers often photographed with SVT's with optic sights to show off the Soviet's magical communist industrial megaweapon of the future, when in reality they would've preferred a garbage rod with a scope any day of the week.
Isaiah Lewis
Didn’t Germany soldiers really like the SVT38?
Jack Lewis
I know that SVT-38 was considered garbage by Finns
Because not accurate enough
I own new molot svt-40 cost me total 700€ but I haven't been able to take it to the range.
I also have no clue of how to zero it and where to find needed tool for it.
Brayden Long
The tilting bolt system isnt very inherently accurate. The SVT40 proved this and suffered a wandering zero - something that created big issues scoped and over 300 yards, and the overall arsenal array of early cold war russia was covered well.
The SKS was originally built in 54r during trials - and desired in x39. Even though the SKS-45 was adopted, by 1949 manufacturing delays allowed revisions and tweakings and the arsenal to be consolidated. note the sight picture similarities with SKS, AK, and RPD is also another similarity among this 'family' of weapons.
SKS-45 Basicly replaced the SVT-40. you went from a battle-rifle length to a "carbine" length, kept 10 rounds but those were new x39 and the magazine was much more resilient than the SVT's.
M44 carbines were desired over M91/30s for they had the same OAL as a SKS, five rounds of much available x54r AND had a folding bayonet; Stick a M44 beside a Kar98k and a war-refurbished M91/30 with disconcentric barrels and overal poor QC. Pick the nugget yould rather have, and the nugget you'ld rather give to some gooks.
Early AK production was hinging on stamp metal technology. The AK-47 was desired to replace the array of SMGs the soviets were sitting on.
The PU Mosin nagant proved sufficient for sniping/dmr roles.
RPD was suitable for replacing the DP-28 - lighter, smaller cartridge, belt fed, and a standardized sight pattern. SMGs were quite popular and many made, but by the mid 50's were past obsolete, suffering from the same QC issues as wartime weapons and tanks.
Jason Clark
This is now SKS posting
Aiden Fisher
SKS-45 stocking was notoriously terrible, you can consider it a design flaw.
As you know, when the safety is on and the takedown button is compressed, your trigger group falls out. the action is largely compressed into the stock by that spring in the stock pushing on the trigger group and the juncture of the TG, Receiver, and magazine area.
The stock often doesnt sit evenly against the receiver; Consistency = accuracy.
Pick up your serials matching chicom or soviet meme-beam, and wiggle the receiver in the stock Ask yourself, does that feel consistent?
I've handled an all matching sinosoviet SKS and a soviet SKS, and many online will attest to this wiggle.
Theres a set of lugs on you SKS receiver that SHOULD mate with a pair of recesses in your SKS stock; kinda like the lugs on an enfeild receiver mate with the forearm stock.
Often, they dont mate at all, and the stock is loosely held left-right and only tightly held at the rear by the big spring in the stock that pushed on your TG.
Kevin Edwards
Another thing to bitch about is the bayonet and how it affects barrel harmonics.
I've heard it explained like this: your barrel wobbles up and down, and the wave must end at the crown so the barrel isnt wobbling as the bullet leaves.
Anyone from sharpshooting general can pop in and correct me, but its a fact that barrel length, thickness compared to bore, and barrel contact can influence accuracy.
An sks has plenty of shit pinned to the barrel, barrel contacted by the stock forearm cap, and the bayonet can deeply influence accuracy and point of impact.
Its just badly built for DMR role.
Cameron Wilson
Christian Gray
For all this said, you can accurize an SKS quite easily.
Buy two units of marine grade JB Weld, the white and black mix kind, not the lipstick-tube kind.
Possess a Dremel tool and a fitting meant to dig a small golfball divet.
Get some cheap vasoline.
Go ahead and cut some divits in three essential locations on the stock, as show in TheRifleChairs' YouTube video on SKS accurizing.
Instead of using wood glue as a release agent on metal components, use the Vaseline, ensuring to fill threading and holes and spring gaps with Vaseline.
It's pretty straightforward.
Landon Martinez
this
Colton Gutierrez
How hard is restocking an SKS? Can a well fit stock fix the manufacturing issue?
Aiden Sanders
Do you mean for "as new" accuracy or for optimal accuracy?
Many Type 56 SKS were refurbished without any stamps or honest means of discerning when; Often SKS-45 were refurbished and bear familiar soviet refurbishment marks, such as a Square with diagonal line in the stock and dust cover.
The stocking job for "as new" I cant speak to except to suggest a Yugo SKS may serve as a benchmark.
I'd look to them to set an example for military SKS accuracy standards, considering their arsenals were audited, repaired, restocked, and such, every five years IIRC.
If you mean optimal shooting accuracy in a military configuration, I took a bubba'd Type 56 and bedded it as RifleChair described and as in It wasn't very difficult with the right tools and resources. What SKS are you considering working on?
Brandon Moore
Luis Evans
Luke Hill
/thread
Liam Russell
>the main one being that anti personnel and anti tank rifles aren't necessarily accurate guns that you can take good shots with at over 500m away from a target.
>[...] at ranges where its operator would be close enough to hit the broadside of a tank
Antitank rifles by design had to be accurate enough to hit the weakspots of a tank since even in the interwar period they were not nearly powerful enough to penetrate a tank everywhere.
>the PTRS and PTRD were meant to be cheap guns
The PTRD was supposed to be the cheap one, the PTRS was supposed to be the fancy one.
Zachary Evans
>buy SKS
>it only has a shitty Tapco stock (owner didn't keep original furniture)
>can't find handguard or wood stock for pinned barrel SKS anywhere
:(
Mason Sullivan
Because AKs existed
Josiah Roberts
They actually come free with the purchase of another sks, it's not a $1000 gun...
Nathan Russell
Because the SKS was supposed to be a carbine from the get go. It's in the name.
Nolan Garcia
yes
it was much easier to get than a Gew. 41 or 43 and provided a higher volume of fire than a Mauser
Logan Ortiz
>Antitank rifles by design had to be accurate enough to hit the weakspots of a tank
ie the side of a tank
Samuel Robinson
The simonov was designed and put in service before the AK.
Sebastian Kelly
Not even remotely long enough to make any difference whatsoever in military doctrine
Jaxon Nguyen
... and your point is?
The question was why the SKS wasn't designed in 54R and implemented as a DMR. The response was "because AKs existed", which is patently false. They did not exist when the SKS was finalized and serviced.
To tear it down further AK variants chambered in 54R wouldn't be around for many more years.
Luke Foster
>Why didn't the Soviets make SKS rifles in 7.62x54r and put them into service as DMR's?
They did make a Simonov in 7.62x54R and fit it with a scope.
In 1940.
Carter Diaz
Because AKs existed when the idea would become relevant*
Happy now?
Asher Harris
When what idea became relevant? You realize there were SKS prototypes in 54R, right? Such as the Simonov Self Loading Carbine, which was from 1941. The problem wasn't that the idea wasn't thought of, it's that it wasn't deemed fit for the rifle because the SKS was supposed to be issued and fielded as a carbine.
You were wrong. I'm sorry it sucks.
William Ramirez
>The problem wasn't that the idea wasn't thought of, it's that it wasn't deemed fit for the rifle because the SKS was supposed to be issued and fielded as a carbine.
i.e. not relevant
Colton Sullivan
>not relevant to the question of why wasn't the SKS chambered in a full size round and fielded as a DMR
Lmao yeah sure thing
Let me know when you get tired of moving those goalposts
Connor Phillips
Owen Anderson
Imagine missing a simple point this badly and accusing someone else of moving goalposts in the same breath
Jaxson Ramirez
>why wasn't the simonov chambered in 54R and used as a dmr?
>because it was supposed to be a carbine and the SVT40 already fit that role. It was tried and seen as unfit
>that's not relevant
Tired yet?
I'm not sure what answer you were expecting
Carter Davis
Do you expect us to read beaner language?
Adrian Lopez
What's the accuracy gain?
Matthew Lopez
Coworker offered to sell me a Yugo M59/66A1, wasn't really interested. Offered to trade it for a 91/30 Mosin. Couldn't turn down that deal. Picked it up yesterday, took it out in the snow today (as fitting for a Russian gun design).
Joseph Thomas
>Why didn't the Soviets make SKS rifles in 7.62x54r and put them into service as DMR's?
Their experience with selfloading x54r rifles, both the AVS-36, and the SVT-40, were largely negative.
Even though the Finns and the Krauts loved their captured SVT-40s.
Asher Ortiz
>I've heard it explained like this: your barrel wobbles up and down, and the wave must end at the crown so the barrel isnt wobbling as the bullet leaves.
The barrel always wobbles during firing. The only questions are how badly the barrel wobbles, and if the bullet leaves the barrel at approximately the same angle consistently.
Jackson Morris
They did, it didn't win the trials though because Tokarev was a huge name in Russian arms development and won pretty much on popularity alone, then they realized the SVT-40 was way too finicky and complicated for your average illiterate village tribal conscript just in time for Simonov to come around with his fancy new carbine.
Chase Sanchez
Finns and Krauts had enough education to know guns don't work on vodka magic and need to be maintained
Juan Lee
>Tired yet?
Yeah I'm pretty tired of you completely misunderstanding the context where I used the word "relevant"
Easton Garcia
>Finns and Krauts had enough education to know guns don't work on vodka magic and need to be maintained
Also true
Brayden Morris
it just says that's one of the food/aid trucks that venezuela destroyed as it tried to enter the country
Blake Collins
STOP STOP
Nathan Russell
>AT Russian weapons are needed to kill US infantry
Point proven, they're shit
Oliver Evans
54mm russian has to much recoil. egyptians had a smei-auto nagant variant and it is worthless
Easton Stewart
No. They were not made to hit weak spots, because you don't need to. At 100m, both of them will go through the side of a Pz III and IV, and even the front of things like a Pz II and 38(t), not to mention armored cars and the like
Michael Phillips
>egyptians had a smei-auto nagant variant
Wut? What weapon are you referring to? As far as I know Egypt has never fielded a rifle in 7.62x54r.
Adrian Baker
Extrapolate much?
Easton Brooks
Sure thing pal
Zachary Reyes
Based and redpilled
Jose Fisher
The only good Communist is a dead Communist. Fuck Soviet guns of any kind.
Jonathan Smith
Considering all the capitalist countries are degenerate shitholes now, yeah.
Cameron Peterson
>cheap and reliable weapon that has the highest kill count on US soldiers
>forced everyone to spend dozens of years to develop ERA just to stop it
Yeah keep believing that commie made shit decisions when their weapons are good enough to deal with tons of things
Nathaniel Peterson
Lever Nugget>SKS Nugget.
Benjamin Ramirez
there are things that work when guns don't
Caleb Thompson
this thread is a cowardly cucknadian in disguise.
listen, trash, you have no freedoms, you're slaves
Matthew Richardson
>54mm russian
Okay newfag, ompinion discarded. R stands for rimmed.
Levi Murphy
Kevin Jenkins
>lever better than any autoloader
FUCK YOU
Landon Lee
It's cut my group in half, nearer to 2.5MOA than to 6" spread it was pulling.
I put as much effort into the bedding as I did in paying for the bedding, so if you intend to bed your SKS, YMMV for the better.
Nice. Holding the stock in your firing hand and the receiver in your left, Does it wobble in the stock?
How does she shoot? I'ld stock up on M67 and do some bench testing.
You should see the gif of a cock in a Garand.
Ever seen Garand thumb?
Ayden Diaz
Jacob James
>You should see the gif of a cock in a Garand.
Where can I find it?
Isaac Jenkins
Chinese web gear is largely junk, but its minimalist nature and cheap price keeps T56 rigs, canteens, and other pouches still relevant.
Otherwise known as "the sks chest rig", Soft canvas with some vinyl lining; 9 cells hold two 10rd clips with the 10th and larger cell on the lefthand side being better suited for a oil bottle, some patches, and a torn handkerchief.
This rig is better made and have been used with T54 mosins, although they did have their own chest rig using tied cloth fasteners.
If any Jow Forumsommando is intending on using an SKS and rig with any seriousness, Don't. For LARPing, its fine and affordable.
Red Army Standard makes "Range Packs" of 180rds, which is perfectly enough to stock your rig.
The Canteens come in 1L and 2L, both are prone to denting - More so when empty. Don't lick the paint.
The strap is often nylon and somewhat rot resistant.
Its on Jow Forums somewhere ;)
Jayden Richardson
The communist chinese also made a handy "bread bag" which has no water resistance, no belt loops, and no place to affix the canteen in any way.
Stick some Ritz crackers in a Pirouline can, and a tin of ham or other dollar store canned meat, and cook this over whatever milsurp meal prep kit you have.
The chinese mess kit of the korean war era was a modified version of the european kidney can.
It more broadly resembles the soviet VDV mess kit. Either one is fine, no one will judge you.
When the crackling coals die down and you finish the last crisp cracker, you can almost forget about the millions of starved dead Chinese in the flavor of canned ham and salty sweet crackers.
Oliver Clark
Nicholas Carter
Adrian Rivera
Camden Gonzalez
Because rimmed cartridge in autoloading rifle = just-fucking-end-my-life levels of malfunctioning.
Jack Parker
Luis Perez
And this, kids, is why muh bootiful wudd stocks have fallen out of disuse, in favor of a barreled and scoped upper pinned to a metal lower, with something that serves the same general function as early wood "pistol grip" stocks hanging off that lower half, and why that was later improved upon with a floating barrel shroud.
Shooters of "fudd guns" have some serious autism over action bedding you will never hear from people using boring old AR-15s.
Christopher Baker
It's a odd lost art, more of a challenge to assemble and set up than in a basic bitch Ar.
Sure, my AR shoots better, softer, and cheaper; but it doesn't have the same soul and experience as some other rifles.
Dominic Garcia
Soul and experience here are ultimately the same thing as using a hand drill instead of a power drill and making your own clamps from scrap planks and rusty bolts in woodworking.
Only because shooting is mostly done for the utility of killing and being efficient at killing and is a sport second and sometimes laughably second ("just get a bow, guns are weapons of war"), people think you're even weirder.
Blake Turner
Soul and experience are not the same.
Soul is history and character, sentimentality and vibes, and a touch of aesthetics.
Experience is the act of shooting.
The SKS has a more enjoyable experience than an AR, with a strong BHO impulse, smooth clip feeding, and handy ergonomics, simple sight picture, and its distinct gas blowback leaving the shooter with as much fun cleaning his rifle as he has shooting it.
As a weapon of war, the SKS was wonderful until about 1965. Contemporary rifles like the Madsen, Mauser, Enfield, and Garand were much heavier, longer, and shot overpowered cartridges.
As the FAL entered service, and M14, capacity became a more concerning issue.
Keep in mind the SKS was already considered a rear line rifle to the AK47/AKM, so the sks only needed to hold its own against the western small arms in that context.
Hell, the SKS is better seen as a improved envisioning of the SVT40 could have been.
It was perfectly capable and is still preferable against any dumb fuck with a bolt action rifle, just as any basement dwelling neet calculating his larp points with AR is more effective than the same with a SKS.
An AR is simple so effective as to be sterile, a light recoil impulse, BHO impulse that can be overlooked when moving, clean sights and inherently more accurate, the smaller M193 delivers better terminal ballistics than M43 will ever hope to, and the modern AR aftermarket is saturated with startups and manufacturers looking to make a buck.
Sure, your AR is better at being a tool, and if shooting is your job, power too you.
But SKS has much more going for it recreationally.
Ayden Edwards
Best post ITT has no yous, what a fucking shame
The USSR was all the fuck about 7.62x39 and ammo commonality. The AK was intended to be an SMG that could reach out further than pistol calibers could, and the SKS was meant to actually be aimed.