Would it have helped if Germany made more tiger tanks?

Realistically he probably had a higher chance winning the war by offering to personally suck off every allied soldier than through warfare.

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the tiger was expensive
like ludicrously expensive
it took twice the man hours to build as a stug III, consumed way more gas, and had a maintenance and support crew of double as well
it also needed specialized equipment for towing, even then rarely available, and had unique transport requirements, like a special narrow rail for train transport

when it finally got to the field, it wasnt a do it all tank, it consumed far too much gas and had low strategic mobility
it was very good at a narrow set of missions rather than adequate at many
it was good at destroying other tanks and that was it
it was meant to be a breakthrough tank on paper, but they were rarely concentrated enough to be effective this way

nothing germany could do could win the war other than not starting it in the first place
they didnt have enough men, food, or oil
but mass producing a tank that was impossible to make in any great number and would have been an economic millstone would have only sent you farther from that goal

>build loads more tanks that you cant fuel instead of better ones you might be able to fuel

should of built 100s of wood gas generator plants with the steal instead so they could at least have used the tanks they had

Problem with the Tiger 1 was how complex it was to build (and small modifications/changes kept being made) and the training requirements to ensure crews knew how to get the most out of their vehicle. Even if Germany wanted to produce thousands of more Tiger 1's, they wouldn't have been able to. There was not enough resources or time. Plus, the railroads that the tanks required for transport would eventually be targeted by aircraft and a tank having to drive long distances to a battlefield will eat itself up. The Tiger 1 was a very good tank when it was able to get proper maintenance and when it could get to a fighting position, but circumstances were often far from that ideal.

That was sort of where the Panther was supposed to come in, as a replacement for the Panzer IV which had reached its developmental limits. The Panther was going to be the medium tank of Germany. The problem was that its final design was a lot heavier than the approved proposal and there hadn't been enough changes to the engine and transmission to compensate. The result was something that looked good on paper, but that struggled in reality. The layout of the tank was also questionable and I would say it hindered the crew in doing their duties more than helped them.

In terms of where Germany should have taken its tank design in WW2, I see two plausible routes:
1.) Simplify the Tiger 1, a lot. Make it less finely finished (without compromising the functionality), settle on one design and stop changing small things on the production line, ditch the interleaved roadwheels and go to bogies like the Porsche Tiger design had.
2.) Go with the VK 3002 design (what became the Panther) but do not add another 10-15 tons of weight to it. End result would be something similar to the T-34, but improved in some ways because it doesn't have the Christie suspension that would eat up even more interior space when combined with the sloped armor.

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pic related is what they should've made.

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>germany lost because they didnt have enough fuel
>would germany had won if they had more fuel burning things
BIG THINK RIGHT THERE, I TELL YOU WHAT

desu Hitlers writing isnt too bad considered how sick he was during the later stages.

no single tank or equipment would ever be able to compensate for germanys denied access to war resources and the lack of industrial capacity compared to that of the allies.
the german war planners knew this before the war started, Victory was only attainable if the war was not prolonged

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they would likely be similar in performance with a t34-85 but Germany would never be able to match the numbers of soviet tanks. If they were going to try and out produce the soviets they would more likely use the panzer IV/III because less retooling cost and you could convert the hulls of old tanks. But none of this maters because Germany wouldn't have enough oil for the new tanks anyways.

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The only things that could've actually prolonged Germany's defeat were large numbers of experienced pilots, fuel, aircraft, and artillery.

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what they needed was a few million more troops to sacrifice in russia....that seems like the real reason russia won, or at least it hurt germany enough for the eventual win, just my opinion

odd fetish about wanting a hitler BJ you have there user. does your mommy know? here's a fap pick for ya

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It would be better than panthers

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>Hitlers signature become more and more similar to SS emblem

What a fucking larper he was

Building more tanks, no matter the type, wouldn't have fixed the complete shitshow that was maintenance and something as basic as spare fucking parts.

Read this and laugh with me:
history.army.mil/html/books/104/104-7/cmhPub_104-7.pdf
>Within a short time hundreds of tanks were disabled and a major backlog of repairs accumulated because the necessary spare parts were not available.
>Most of the disabled tanks could have been quickly restored to service since the repairs involved only the replacement of defective parts.
>Less than 30 percent of the damaged tanks required welding or time-consuming
labor.
>Had parts been in stock or available at a nearby depot, most of the repairs involving the replacement of defective parts could probably have been accomplished within 2 weeks.

>In the autumn of 1942, for instance, heavy Tiger tanks were committed for the first time in the Russian theater.
>The production of extra parts for this tank had been neglected to the extent that only 1 spare engine and 1 spare transmission were produced for every 10
tanks.
"ONLY 1 SPARE ENGINE AND 1 SPARE TRANSMISSION WERE PRODUCED FOR EVERY 10 TANKS"
>Within a short time almost all of the new Tiger tanks were lost or deadlined because of lack of parts.

>Instead of simplifying the design of the engine, Maybach continued to turn out new, improved series, so that eventually a tremendous variety of spare parts was required for the repair of the tank engines.

>One of the most widespread expedients was the practice of cannibalizing disabled tanks, especially those destined for return to the zone of interior.
>The cannibalization crews were so thorough that the manufacturer would rarely receive more than the empty hull by the time the tank reached his plant.
>Disabled tanks awaiting engine replacements at field repair shops were also subject to being stripped, and by the time the new engine arrived there usually was little left of the tank for which it had been intended.

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would have been better off redirecting resources to massively increase the Fallschirmjäger force seeing as the Germans had air superiority over the eastern front. should have dropped them behind soviet lines during large assaults by their panzer divisions. more transport aircraft not more tigers.

>Since the advance dumps and army group depots were usually out of those parts for which there was a heavy demand, the tank maintenance
companies began to send details to the depots to represent their interests.
>Upon the arrival of a supply train carrying spare parts, each detail tried to secure the parts its company needed most urgently.
>When more and more companies adopted this procedure, the depots became the scenes of fierce struggles for priority items.
"DEPOTS BECAME THE SCENES OF FIERCE STRUGGLES FOR PRIORITY ITEMS"
>As soon as a detail had secured some parts, it would contact its parent organization by radio or telephone.
>In a matter of minutes the trucks would be on their way to the depots to pick up the "spoils."
>If the distance between the depot and the field repair shop was too great, the spare parts would be shipped by rail under escort.

>During the latter part of the war some of them even resorted to bribery.
>Others would contact manufacturers in the zone of interior outside of normal channels to procure parts directly at the source.
>Occasionally, even tactical commanders took part in the hunt for parts when the number of serviceable tanks at their disposal began to dwindle.
>It happened in several instances that a private or noncommissioned officer escorting a rail shipment of laboriously acquired spare parts would suddenly be confronted by a field grade officer of some other regiment or division who simply ordered him to surrender the entire cargo.

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Short version : Not being a nazi

Long version : He should've made germany more capitalistic,disbanded the SS,created anti gramscism educational policy,supported central europen nations,paid Versailles,founded Israel,publicized the Holodomor and cooperated with the USA to throw Roosevelt and his commie allies out of the white house.
Crete 2.0,electric boogaloo
>Instead of simplifying the design of the engine, Maybach continued to turn out new, improved series, so that eventually a tremendous variety of spare parts was required for the repair of the tank engines.
Meanwhile,in Russia,the soviets are trying to reduce cost and time.
tankarchives.blogspot.com/2019/02/man-hours.html

>Tiger 1's
kys box loving faggot

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nah panthers were decent enough, they just needed to focus on standardization.

/thread

Naw, Tiger was shit beyond the application of destroying armor on a tactical level. To win the war though? Hard to say, a lot of shit-tier choices made kept sinking that possibility. Dunkirk, Battle of Britain, Stalingrad, Moscow, Kursk, the entire idea of Festerplatz across the Eastern Front, the lack of armor pushing Overlord at the very start (Abet lackluster possibility at that point owing to lack of air cover and getting naval bombarded to hell and back.)

Hitler fucked up Germany's chances too badly which is sightly amusing when he's the one that really started it up anyway.

They had every possible advantage at the start of barbarossa
>Surprise.
>Significantly outnumbered their enemy.
>Significantly more experience.
>Better organization and communication (e.g. radios in tanks).
>Much better airforce.

What they actually needed to do in Russia was not be retards repeating napolean's mistakes by thinking that they could break the Russian spirit via capturing their population centers, but instead do what Hitler told them to do and capture the caucus oil fields so that they could have enough oil to continue the war to a stalemate and sue for peace with the UK and/or the USSR.

no
more Stugs tho

No matter what tank Germany built they would not have won WWII. There was no silver bullet when the allied forces had more resources, more manpower, more time, and their factories and railyards weren't being raided constantly.
Germany had lost the war before it had even begun, they just hadn't realised it.

No. They cost as much to build as a medium bomber did the Allies. Their manufacturing processes were fucking insane.

There is a possibility they could've won but they had so many fuck ups and so many resources squandered that it ended up becoming impossible.

More StuG's with bigger guns / better ammo.

Actually yeah you're right. If they had managed to defeat the British and the Russians before America had joined the war then it's very likely they would have won. Quite possibly if they had decided to just defeat Russia before invading Poland there might have been a very real possibility of conquering Europe. But then again that would have prompted the rest of Europe to gear up for a war which may have caused it to become too protracted for Germany to conquer the continent.
Really Germany had the work cut out for them, they had to complete many difficult tasks in a very short time frame.

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Didn't matter. Germany lacked air superiority. Tigers might have scared the shit out of Americans and shook up their tank crews, but it didn't matter because they would get BTFO by P47 and not to mention German factories that made them were being bombed. It was really dumb of them to base their entire battle doctrine on motor vehicles, while not having enough oil to support it and not being able to protect their own infastructure. Nether the tiger or any of their "wonder weapons" were doing them any good strategically, it was all just a cash dump.

A simple Tiger you say.. Chibi-Tiger, ACTIVATE!!

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They needed to be ten tons lighter more than anything else.

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I remember reading detailed articles about performance of tigers on eastern front.
It was always something like this:
>Train with freshly rearmed, retrained panzer batalion nears the front line. (1)
>Tigers leave the platform, change from train-tracks to road-tracks (2)
>Tigers on the move, 50km road to their designated dislocation
>70% of tigers break before reaching the objective

Tiger was an excellent tank. Really was. Crews loved them, enemies feared them.
But they ware insanely time & resources consuming (3)
And seriously - we fap to "glorious german engeneering", but what kind of retard leaves early-design transmission ment for much lighter tank.

As for wining the war - they had good economists.
They knew as early as in 1938, that if they don't win the war in 3 years, before titan-tier american industry switches to war effort and starts spitting out tanks & planes by the houndreds of thousands, they are fucked.

I'm glad they lost.

(1) OKW had a retarded practice of rearming entire units in new tanks, but once thwy did, they practically sent zero replacement tanks to them. So you had like, 2 batalions with IV's, instead sending replacement tanks, they would send 3'd batalion with fresh tigers, while commanders of panzer IV batalions watched in frustration as their numbers drop to near zero - than they would be sent home, and re-armed.

(2)yes, regular tracks ware to wide for the trains

(3)look at how the sides of turret ware made. Engeneering marvel, yes, but it could have been done much much cheaper & faster. Tigers, unlike Panthers & pzIVs, waren't really mass produced, like russian & american tanks

(4)yes I also count in german civilians who died in bomb raids

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The only change Germany had was successfully launching Sealion and then not declaring war against the US.

Sealion was a bad idea that would have almost certainly failed but it had better odds of succeeding then fighting the UK, US and USSR all at the same time. With the UK knocked out the Soviets line to Lend Lease aid is cut and Germany doesn't need to divert massive economic power to air defense and naval forces. Not intermediately turning the anti-Soviet populations in the East against them would also be a good idea but that would require the Nazis to not be Nazis, which is even less likely the Sealion working.

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Germany had man power shortages as ealry as 1942 so no shiting more tanks woudnt help. War was lost frome the start

No. Prior to '43 Medium tanks (Panzer IV and Panther) would be more useful, '43 and after they should have turned completely to anti-tank guns and TDs.

There's limited options since an invasion of Britain is improbable, so fighting a two front war is basically essential for the Germans. It's PLAUSIBLE that launching an aerial invasion of Britain DURING the Fall of France MIGHT have been enough to make the Brits bail on the war, though that's not guaranteed. If that happens then I think the Germans can grind out a win in the East and call it good.

The other possibility would be focusing HARD on the South Eastern front. If you can cut off and than take the Caucasus, at minimum Grozny and Maikop, in late '41 or early '42 then you might have enough fuel to continue the fight.

The problem is that if the US is in the war then their deadline is summer 1945, then it's nukes all the way down.

Ideally he would, somehow, keep Britain out of the war completely.

>Sealion was a bad idea that would have almost certainly failed
Sealion had zero hope of success.

The only way that germany was going to get the UK out of the war, would have been to sign a peace treaty with them right after Dunkirk when Britain was still reeling from their crushing defeat and hadn't been hardened by terror bombing against civilians.
After that they could have used all of their resources to prepare for Barbarossa, instead of wasting enormous amounts of men, materials, fuel and sunk shipping on the BoB and Africa campaigns.

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Don't forget being able to schlep out of Norway, that's several divisions right there.

The only hope Sealion had was hoping the British accidentally let them win through a combination of bad luck and bad ideas.

Which is still a better idea fighting the UK and USSR at the same time.

there is no winning only slower losses
historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_panzer_IV_ausf_J.html
by the end they were using half as many ball bearings on the turret ring

also rough unit cost in usd of the time
Stug 3 G
$35,000
Panzer IIIG
$40,000
Panzer IVG
$46,387
Panzer V (Panther)
$60,000
Panzer VIE (Tiger)
$119,920

add to this the cost of spare parts
especially getting those spares to where they are needed
made worse by the way the tanks are revised
so you order x number of parts for mk? revision? of tank year 19##
only to find that by the time the parts are ready to be sent out a new model of that mk of tank has been rolled out
and the battle field losses of the tanks you do have in the field can be enough that you end up sending spares to tanks the by in large no longer exist
final kick in the balls is that each revision of the same tank may have slightly incompatible parts
so the parts are no good for the new tanks either
to get just a sample of the autism required to manage all this just look at the system of German helmet sizes

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>Not intermediately turning the anti-Soviet populations in the East against them would also be a good idea but that would require the Nazis to not be Nazis, which is even less likely the Sealion working.

This.
Literally millions of russian povs offered to fight soviet oppressors, but stupid german cretines preffered to have them die of dehydration, even when they begged for death
Same goes with Poland - pre-war government worked closely with nazis after hitler took power, hitler abolished german anti-polish trade blockade, things could have worked out, but nooo, lets exterminate all those anti-soviet, experienced in fighting the rus, people.

Fucking autists.

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Please go back, tranny

panzer 3 - 23.0 tonnes
expensive suspension - decent ground pressure
turret ring too small - like it was made to fight wars of the past and not the future (would be super if the war broke out 10 years sooner)
a little over weight - transmission later given lower ratios to improve off road ability
>redundant when the pz4 exists

panzer 4 - 25.0 tonnes
crude suspension - less costly and does not make the floor higher
thin complex armor - is heavier than the pz3 but only really because of the overall size
took too long to get a decent gun
really overweight - transmission near its limit as more armor was added
>still too small and not cheep enough

panzer 5 - panther - 44.8 tonnes
nightmare suspension - ground pressure and offload ability much like Churchill mk4
lack of vision ports and pistol ports compared to older tanks - construction of armor is more efficient than any other German tank
water proofing related to a fording requirement caused fuel to accumulate in the engine bay - tank catches fire if you go up or down hill
gun is good - high velocity wears out barrel sooner
10 tonne overweight (hence the fording requirement) - transmission cant deal
>rushed development
>at the last moment Adolf transformed it from a up scale pz4 to a lightweight pz6

panzer 6 - tiger - 54 tonnes
no expense spared - pretty much 1337 the tank - only thing missing is crushed velvet and suede leather seats
suspension same as the panther but with ten extra tons - with combat tracks on the tank is too wide to fit though most European tunnels and bridges
engine bay too cramped - prone to over heating
bad fuel economy and fragile running gear - must be loaded on to trains to move quickly
gorillans of man hours never mind the sheer weight of materials
>white elephant
>an only slightly mobile pillbox
>needs many tanks or heavy half tracks to recover

>all of the above
gearbox and final drive must be extracted though the turret ring for heavy maintenance or replacement
rear engine and front sprocket drive places the turret high up and closer to the center of the tank
>apparent advantage - driver is closer to gearbox - weight can be more evenly distributed regardless of gun mounted
turret is too small for the largest guns fitted some can not operate without the muzzle brake and counter weight fully operational

>ten tons lighter
it even had the same gun, was a faster tank too.

I made a edit.

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Tbh if Hitler had found a way to keep the Russians happy and out of the war they would have done pretty well

I need some more info

His goal was russia, no way around it.

Germany lost the moment they didn't totally fucking wipe out England. Goering you stupid cunt

Germany lost due to strategic factors, changing tank production wouldn't have changed the outcome of the war
that said German arms production was a mess, and retrospectively we should've probably limited tank production to vehicles based on the chassis of the Panzer III (including the StuG) and of the Panther to make production and maintenance easier

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instead of panther how about the vk?it weighs 30 tons has the same gun and moves faster than the panther all while having a much smaller profile.

I don't know, the Panther was actually built and saw service, the VK did not
the Panther did have flaws obviously, perhaps the VK would've been better
for the early war, the Pz III was very good, but at least from 1942, a replacement was necessary
upgraded Pz IV were no long term solution, all the upgrades overstrained the tank

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>would it have helped if Germany made more tiger tanks?

no hitler lost the war as soon as he began it

>Identity politics got in the way of success.
Well fuck, who could've predicted that?

>I met a person over discord who thought that if Germany made more tiger 1s in ww2 they would have won, is this so?

A nation has limited resources to wage war: people to train and fight, materials to fuel its industry and war machine, allies to shoulder the burden, and time to properly plan and execute military campaigns.

Germany was short on all of this BEFORE it kicked things off. And on top of that, it lacked competent people at the highest levels of military and civilian staff that might have known what to do about that.

Saying that Germany could have won the war if it built more Tiger tanks is like asking if an obese man could have won a marathon if he had replaced his old sneakers halfway through the competition. The chance to win was never there, and a change of dubious usefulness and mostly for cosmetic reasons is not going to do much to change the end result.

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read the thread

Wouldn't even have been that difficult as well. Imagine the gains they made in '41, but towards those juicy oil fields.

Germans lost because petrol not diesel

No. Germany's problem was oil.

the best a german mediheavy tank could be is...
Daimler-Benz DB 507 - 750 hp
36 tonnes ideal weight - gearbox made to handle 46 tonnes just because
E50 type Belleville Conical Spring Washer suspension (best combo of performance and cost)
7.5 cm KwK 42 - mobile snipeing version
8,8 cm Kw.K. 36 L/56 - pigfat break though version
8,8 cm Kw.K. 43 L/71 - jagdpanther

and if you really must have a "light" tank
HL 157P - 550 hp or a 400 hp diesel engine if such a thing exsists
26 tonne ideal weight - transmission made to handle 36 tonne
pz4 D type suspesion (lowest cost)(can be converted to E50 type or a scaled down version of VK 4501 (P) suspesion
7.5 cm Pak 40 L48 - light weight tank harassment edition
10.5 cm Leichtgeschütz 42 - mini sturmpanzer
7.5 cm Pak 42 L70 - jagdpanzer iv
15 cm StuH 43 L/12 - Brummbär reborn

How would it have had no chance at success? Sure, the Brits would have burned everything with excess oil but despite their airforce and navy they had nothing to fight back.

Germany lost the war when they invaded Poland like a bunch of fucking morons.

>Got Austria and the Czechs for FREE.
>Should of just waited for the USSR to fuck up first and invade Europe.

Well considering they didn't have enough fuel to run them, no.

Germany lost WWII at Dunkirk. They needed either to crush the British then and there before blitzing across the channel to invade an England that had no army to fight back with, or they needed to let the British go, hunker down in France, and fight a defensive war in the west, starving the British out from the sea without ever doing anything as provocative as The Battle of Britain.

Oh, and they needed to win in North Africa and ensure that Fascist territory ran unbroken and uncontested from Jerusalem to Gibraltar.

Also, leaning on the Japs to keep them from doing anything as stupid and provocative as Pearl Harbor would have also been a start. Let the Japs ignore US land while conquering Singapore, Southeast Asia, and Northern Australia instead, to further demoralize the British and keep them confined to the British isles and India.

>blitzing across the channel
Not sure that was ever a possibility for the Germans.

and even if they did kill those british soldiers so what a couple thousand won't be at d day

the germans also had nothing to ferry their army across

Watch military history visualized/not visualized and his podcasts, he basically explains how it can be argued Germany lost the war before Kursk but Kursk was the major sign that even in the summer the German army was no longer capable of claiming victory against the red army. Beforehand only the winter offenses stalled while the summer offenses had some degree victory

To have any hope of defeating UK the Gnatzis needed to cross the channel, establish a beach head and then maintain supply lies via either the sea or air.
However, even if the Hun managed to launch a surprise attack, it would have been only a matter of hours before the british were bombing the beachhead back to the stone age and cutting off air support, since the RAF were the superior force at the time and were operating on top of their own airfields.
Then within a day or two the royal navy would roll up and yeet what little remained of the post-Weserübung-disaster Kriegsmarine into a mix of blood and fermented cabbage.
And with that, the landing force would be completely cut off from supply and reinforcements by both sea and air, have no air-support at all (which was the linchpin of their tactics at the time) and be getting pummeled by enemy fire support from both the air and sea.
There's a reason why even the Germans thought it was going to be suicide.

>they had nothing to fight back
Even if Germany had been prepared to invade the day after Dunkirk, the UK still had more than half a million troops in Britain. Realistically though, by the time germany could have gotten enough transports organized, Britian would have had more than long enough to regroup and rearm; it took the allies nearly a year to organize D-Day and they already knew what they were doing and had plenty of gear to do it with.

The would have still needed to hold down norway in case the UK decided to make trouble in the area once Germany was distracted on the eastern front. They could have saved a lot of men and materials not getting their surface fleet and uboats BTFO by the Royal Navy though.

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Meant to quote aswell.