Anyone else here collect swords? I don't mean cheap chinesium wallhanger shit, I mean actual antique swords that were made with the intention of being used by a soldier/warrior/whatever.
I've been wanting to get an actual Japanese katana for a while now, preferably something made and used before the Meiji Restoration. I'm just wondering if anyone here has the dough and connections that they actually know of some good dealers in the country. As I said, I'm not a weeb and I'm not looking for some cheap replica shit, or modern production shit. I've just been really wanting to add a katana/wakizashi to my collection for a while now and I've got about $20,000 saved up that I could spend on it if it's a really amazing piece.
As far as I know, going to Japan to look for one is out of the question because they have cultural heritage laws that prevent the export of things like antique weaponry, artwork, etc. Plus I don't speak Japanese and don't particularly give a shit about their culture so I don't want to go there.
>tl;dr Are there any serious sword collectors here that know a good dealer in antique Japanese weaponry?
My grandaddy has a cavalry sword from the war of northern aggression so yes, real swords are out there. Id get more thrill as a collector from hunting tgem down tho vs paying stacka of money for one.
Gavin Gray
I don't. I don't hate Japanese people, their modern culture just doesn't fancy me all that much. I'll admit that I have a lot of respect for their traditional crafts and trades because their blacksmithing in particular shows the amount of skill that was used to work around the inherent limitations they had due to their access to poor quality steel and fuel, but beyond that I'm not some weeaboo who wishes I could live in Japan or something. I just like antiquities, and I've been wanting to add an antique Japanese sword to my collection of useless shit for a long time.
I have a job that makes a fuck ton of money but keeps me away from home for like 80% of the year. I don't have a family or debt because of it, which means whenever I'm home I blow a lot of money on shit that pleases me. The $20,000 I have saved up isn't necessarily for an antique katana, it's just for my next big purchase. If I find a really amazing piece that I just have to have, I'll spend that much. But if I don't that money could also be spent on some more guns or woodworking tools or any of my other hobbies.
Easton Evans
Well either way you're going to be paying a big stack of money for something like a showcase collector's piece. I've bought several cavalry sabers and naval cutlasses in the past, so I know a few dealers who specialize in those, but I don't have any connections in the world of Japanese sword collecting and was just wondering if anyone here does.
Matthew Morris
Just get a 50 cal
Leo Nelson
I'd prefer to find an antique katana if I could, I'm not really foaming at the mouth to get another machine gun right now. That's like telling somebody who's interested in buying an antique Indian motorcycle to just buy a used pickup truck instead.
Matthew Wright
>their modern culture just doesn't fancy me all that much Look into their politics and you should.
Evan Garcia
Collect isn't how I'd describe it, I own one live blade, a steel iaito and an old stainless steel sword I can't part with for nostalgic reasons.
You should pick up a "kaze" from cheness before you drop dollars on a Shinto etc.
Jonathan Clark
>from the war of northern aggression The South will rise again brother!
I looked it up and a "kaze" appears to be a modern manufacture sword. I'm not interested in that at all. It's not like I'm going to be using this thing, I just collect antiquities. If the sword is modern, it really just doesn't interest me at all. Thanks for the response though
You’re going to be hard fucking pressed to find anything other than a modern day authentically made katana for sale even with the best connections, regardless of how much you have to drop. Occasionally a WW2 officer sword taken as a war trophy may pop up for sale from the family of a dead/nearly dead Pacific campaign veteran. But if you’re talking about swords that were produced a century and a half ago at minimum, they’re going to be either family heirlooms, in a museum, or still buried several feet down on an old battlefield in the Japanese countryside.
The Nipponese are extremely reluctant to part with their artifacts, particularly their swords.
Mason Garcia
False. There's entire websites devoted to this shit.
If you're interested in WWII gunto then you can find those for sale constantly if you speak to WWII militaria dealers. It's actually much more common than you might think to see swords from as far back as the 16th century for sale on these sites and at respectable auction houses. Prices vary drastically depending on condition and shit, but you can probably grab a pretty sweet piece for like $10,000. As a rule of thumb, the longer it is, the more expensive it is, because Japanese swords gradually become shorter over time as their fighting styles evolved (the katana was originally huge as fuck and only used on horseback). So most of the time (not always), if you see a really long sword it's either from like the 12th century or earlier or it was made specifically as an offering to a shrine, either way means you'll be spending upwards of like $80,000.
Another piece of advice: if you buy one, make sure that it was appraised by one of Japan's sword societies. They have several groups that are devoted entirely to grading and certifying Japanese blades, both antique and modern, to make sure they fall within certain criteria for craftsmanship and authenticity. The relative scarcity of antique blades means that virtually every single one you find for sale will have some form of paperwork with it proving its provenance because it's quite literally had over a hundred years to get certified (if I recall correctly, Japan first began setting up these groups in a formal capacity in the late 1800s for grading military swords). If it doesn't, it's probably best to steer clear. This doesn't apply to gunto.
Hope that helped.
Cameron Martinez
>Not buying Columbian surplus It's like you don't want a blooded weapon.
Christian Cox
Wrong.
Brody Rogers
I’m surprised how low the prices are.
Jason Reed
Well, like with most hobbies, there is a more casual and more intense side to it. Say you want to collect antique semi-auto handguns for instance. You could go out and find all kinds of antique pistols from the early 1900s for like $500 a pop if they're in kinda shitty condition or they aren't that popular. But if you want some extremely specific pistol that was only produced in a very limited run that has some strange quirk about it, it's going to cost you.
Scarcity is what ramps up prices. The costs of collecting old Spanish pistols is low because not a lot of people collect old Spanish pistols, so even rare variant can be had for relatively cheap. There are plenty of examples of old Japanese swords that don't have anything that special about them. Most of them on the market under $10,000 were made from like the 1600s to the 1800s, they were made by nobody smiths or maybe not signed at all, and were built to be cheaply made for samurai that weren't particularly wealthy.
It isn't until you start getting into very very old or very very well made swords that you run into astronomical prices.
Aiden Roberts
Wow, thank you! This helped a lot. My experience in collecting shit has taught me to stay away from the internet for the most part because of the amount of scams, but it seems like there's a sizeable online collecting community for Japanese blades. I'll try getting in touch with some of these people and see if I can't see some of this stuff in person before purchasing it.
Yes.Sorry I have no interest in katanas though, only good European swords.
Kevin Brooks
Bollocks, they are very regularly sold at auction and very common compared to the raters European types
Nolan Gonzalez
Horseshit, dont run your mouth about shit you know nothing about. After WWII the Japanese were completely disarmed by MacArthur and all sword ownership was banned. Because of that a metric fuck ton of antiques and even family heirloom swords found their way onto the market. Youre literally more likely to find a 12th century tachi for sale than something European even from the 1400s or something. For whatever reason, and I dont know why, Japanese swords seem to survive into the modern era a lot more than antique European swords.
Jordan Hernandez
>all sword ownership was banned Could be wrong but wasn't that already done under Meiji?
Jordan Peterson
Yes and no. Meiji abolished the samurai class and passed a law prohibiting former samurai from wearing their swords in public which was the symbol of their stature. As Japan became more stable these laws were sort of forgotten. The samurai were gone but obviously NCOs and officers in the military had swords that they carried. But after the US occupation of Japan MacArthur straight up said that it was illegal for any Japanese person to own a sword. Everybody was required to surrender them. Now obviously that law has also since gone away, but it resulted in a lot of swords being confiscated and sent outside the borders of Japan. Even today, for a Japanese man to own a sword, it has to be registered with the local government and have a registration certificate kept with it at all times or it is subject to confiscation.
The Japs have always had an autistic obsession with their swords, and it really shows if you get into the minute details of collecting and owning them. I won't complain though. While I wont get into an argument over whether or not Japanese swords were "better" than European ones or something, you really do have to be blind to not admire the beauty and the amount of work put into them.
>for a Japanese man to own a sword, it has to be registered with the local government and have a registration certificate kept with it at all times or it is subject to confiscation. Including modern repros...?
Oliver Brown
I mean, that's the cheap wall. Expensive stuff lives in the safe. EG:
Depends how you define "repro." It is only legal for a Japanese citizen to own a sword if it is an antique or if it is a modern one that is certified by the NTK. It must be registered with the local government and have a registration tag kept on it at all times. Only swords that are historically or culturally exceptional are granted certification, meaning that a Japanese guy can't just go out and buy some cheap $500 "katana" from China, that is illegal as fuck and will result in confiscation and possible fines or jail time.
For a Japanese smith to produce swords, he must also be certified, and is limited to producing two katana or three wakizashi per month, no more. If he makes more, or if he is an unlicensed smith, he faces fines and jail time.
Basically the Japanese treat katana like we treat NFA items in the United States. Extremely regulated and controlled with an autistically fanatic regulatory agency governing it.
Caleb Lewis
Very nice! What is the sword 10th to the right? It's the one with a straight blade and triangular pommel. It looks strange, I've never seen one quite like that before.
Brayden Parker
It looks like a straight-bladed version of a talwar. Except those are usually curved, and I'm blanking on what the straight version is called. India and surrounding area.
Adrian Walker
Persian qajar era straight sword, 1850ish. Quaranic inscriptions on the blade via acid etching.
fun fact: Jan Matejko included on in the hands of Vytautas, a lithuanian, in the painting "Bitwa pod grunwaldem", which depicts a 1410 battle.
But this style of sword only existed from like 1820 onwards
invaluable or the-saleroom. Good sellers for a new buyer include czernys, C & T auctioneers, hermann historica, Auktionshaus Heickmann, Holts Auctioneers and many more.
Brayden Reyes
I wish that middle eastern arms and armor had the same level of fanboyism that western or far eastern stuff has. Most of the shit online is either fake, or just junk quality
I JUST WANT SOMETHING REAL AND I WILL THROW MONEY AT YOU GOD DAMNIT
Hudson Gonzalez
I haven't had any issues with finding legitimate antiques from the former ottoman empire or former persia. haven't really bothered with arab stuff yet, planning on getting a syrian saif with a persian wootz blade but I have that lined up too
David Robinson
And you buy from those auctions?
Jacob Walker
I buy from auctions all the time. I just also happen to have a whole library of reference material to compare each item they list to.
Eli Turner
Right, but where do I find these auctions? Are they the ones posted above?
Asher Robinson
I used to collect handmade Shin-gunto blades. I actually enjoyed the hunt of finding a gem rather than spending full price on an auction or from a dealer. Mainly because there were some really old swords used in ww2, sometimes a family heirloom fitted into military mounts, and these were very exciting to find. Also, I had a couple where the sword started its life as a Tachi, then was cut down and fitted with military mounts.
All the swords I bought were from nonreputable sources (craigslist, gun shows, pawn shops, etc.) So I invested in reference books and did all the research on my own. That way I could identify the details of most handmade shin-gunto swords I came across.
Also, all Said. Another reference: japaneseswordindex.com/nihonto.htm I haven't been to this one in years but it was very handy back in the day.
Brayden Garcia
>Japanese swords seem to survive into the modern era a lot more than antique European swords. Their society basically considered the holy objects for hundreds of years. That and a culture ancestor worship. A lot of older swords show evidence of repair and even "mordernizing", like an old tachi getting uchigatana fittings.
Mason Young
>Anyone else here collect swords
Yes, but not Japanese.
you're going to hate this, being on Jow Forums, but I would suggest joining reddit's "swords" group. One of the moderators is a f̶u̶c̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶w̶e̶a̶b̶o̶o̶ collector of japanese swords, who would be able to point you in the direction of the consignors who deal with proper nihonto stuff.
Unless you're fluent in Japanese, that would be the sensible move.
From my own field of interest (almost all my collection is 14-16th Century European arms, with a small number of 18th C side-swords too.) the most important thing I would emphasise is that you do your research on provenance and for marked swords, details of the maker's identities and do the legwork to ensure it all fits together. The sword markets are rife with forgeries, and its very easy to be hoodwinked if you're an amateur with plenty of cash and not much experience.
Jason Baker
OP do us a favor and post pics if/when you buy one. I'm intrigued as to what 20k sword would look like.
Christian Brown
to the untrained eye, not a lot different than a £2K one. or a 200K one.
Jacob Sanchez
It won't look any different to the average person than some junky $1000 gunto made in a factory purely as a ceremonial object. It takes a trained expert to spot the differences in some handmade versus something factory made. I'm not an expert myself, but I know that it requires carefully examining the hamon or whatever they call it, the grain of the steel, the signature if it has one etc. etc. In most cases, the actual fitting of the sword isn't even original to it. The blade itself is what matters and is the valuable part, old blades are often stored in a wooden sheathing that is designed purely to protect and preserve it. The samurai would often have several different fittings for the same blade and would exchange them for fashion reasons. It probably has a lot to do with the fact that Japanese practically worshiped their swords and viewed them as religious objects, being handed down generation to generation, whereas the European mindset simply viewed a sword as a utilitarian object to be used and discarded when it was no longer up to the task. Obviously there are exceptions, like Charlemagne's sword and shit.
John Fisher
is there a better smol nip sword? > gotta be sub $121 > prefer carbon steel
>sub $121 Go to a Hot Topic or some other weeb shithole that sells cheap wallhangers, faggot. Stop being poor.
Jacob Gutierrez
I have a few swords lying around, rather short of the budget you're looking to spend though.
As for good old Japanese stuff, the safest bet might be to lurk around nihontomessageboard.com/ and see what dealers are spoken well of. If nothing else lurking around over there should be a good thing for you in general. IIRC they have nothing against the guy who runs yuhindo.com/
>It takes a trained expert to spot the differences in some handmade versus something factory made. It's generally rather easier than that as long as things are in polish, even I can spot a hada or the utter absence thereof, but from one good "proper" one to another things can get rather trickier in a hurry, yes.
r/r swords is okay and gabe is extremely knowledgeable, but that ipostswords dude on the mod team is a dick and I hate him.
t. it's me
Logan Foster
at one point i wanted to, but then realized i have too much shit and it wouldn't be doing anything aside from just sitting there i stopped collecting antique firearms for the same reason
Henry Smith
I killed my regenyei strong sabre. Also, love the swedes and the Bhutan shortsword. Is the blade laminated?
Caleb Peterson
> it wouldn't be doing anything aside from just sitting there That's kinda what I like about antiques though. I collect visor caps from various militaries throughout the world. I have a little display area in my den and I rotate through them every few days or so. Sometimes I like to just chill out by the fireplace and look at them.
Evan Lee
Don't know where you live, but if you're in a part of the country that has a lot of estate auctions, you could keep an eye out there. I know people who have scored nice, old, hand made family blades that came to the US as war loot from WW2. They got em for very cheap prices, too. Chances are, most WW2 bring backs are gonna be contemporary machine made, but it can and does happen.
