>larger personnel count
>larger reserves
>greater budget
>comparable technology
>stronger political will
>superior fighter aircraft
Is China now a more capable land power than Russia? And what does the impending mass introduction of the J-20 mean for the air power comparison between China and Russia?
China will rule the world.
No 50cent shitposting please. I'm actually looking forward to a good faith discussion about China's current military status
They've been superior for a while, only boomers will tell you Russia is a bigger threat.
>Is China now a more capable land power than Russia
Absolutely. Their equipment is better, their demographic crisis is less of an issue than it is with Russia, and they don't have a conscript military. Big issue is lack of experience though.
>Their equipment is better
Is this why China still relies upon Russia for jet engines? I guess you can't steal metallurgy knowledge
>land power
>literal Minecraft camo
My bad, I didn't realize the question was set in the pre-flight era
>I'm actually looking forward to a good faith discussion about China's current military status
here, ok Jow Forums?
lol.
My bad, I didn't put up a "No Retards Allowed" sign so you came in.
You can leave now.
>Is China now a more capable land power than Russia?
Yes.
I mean, you just took one facet of things and ignored the fact that overall, China's equipment is far better. It's possible that they'll catch up to Russian engine manufacturing within 10 years- they've already got a stealth fighter in service, which is more than Russia can say. Not to mention the rest of their stuff is head and shoulders above.
nah big boi, i think i'll stay
Not for much longer. Russians had a lot of expertise in the field while China was learning from scratch. They are probably already ahead.
then you might want to look up the real stats for WS-10A and WS-13A. Not some fucking 10 year old "estimate" by Richard Fisher, a known retard.
>China posting
>Not expecting amerimutts and europoors to change the topic to how china is shit and post their ctrl+c while calling everyone a ruskie or a shill
pick one
Europe is pro china now. Everybody hates USA for starting the migration bullshit and then just losing the wars (again) and leaving.
A man can dream. Perhaps, posters like Oppenheimer, and that one bong that is impossibly autistic in his knowledge of all things submarine prove that it is possible.
And it would be a short war my friend. Russia has nukes. Too many of them. But they’re legit. I’m sure if we talked we could find common ground to protect our families and communities.
....the vast majority of pro-China shills are just burgers baiting other burgers. It's been proven before.
knowledgeable and intelligent people typically don't want to deal with retards.
>Europe is pro china now
No, it isn't.
might be true, but they're certainly a lot less pro america these days.
>Is China now a more capable land power than Russia?
Without a doubt. The pure economic disparity between the two seals any land war in China's favour as China has far more labour, manpower, and industrial might to throw at any hot-war between the two.
Nuclear forces are the only trump card Russia holds, and even this is clearly in jeopardy as Russia's recent withdrawal from INF has shown: Russia is utterly spooked by China's rapid progression in SR/IRBM development and isn't interested in falling behind in service of a cold-war agreement with the states.
Yes it is.
>might be true, but they're certainly a lot less pro america these days.
They want to become their own power. Time will tell if that works out for them but it doesn't make Europe pro-china.
You repeating your retarded claim doesn't make it true.
>Europe is pro china now
Europe is pro-Europe now
Not all of Europe per se, but the shithole countries on this continent are increasingly turning to China simply because of the sheer gibs that China offers;
>Greece
>Serbia
>U.K. to an extent
Chinks know they don't need more nukes. A real nuclear war is not an option anyways. China needs strong army to secure borders with problematic neighbors and secure their interests in Africa. This is why they want carriers and power projection fast. Average chinese makes too much money to be a cheap assembly line drone like in the past. They need cheap African labor before full automation kicks in in 20-30 years.
>They want to become their own power.
That's a very childish thing to say. Europe was filled with great powers long before the rise of the US, and every nation pursues an independent foreign policy.
A statement that is much closer to the truth is Europe is now finding out that they need to hedge not just against China and Russia, but also the US.
>outsourcing your production is a good idea
No. China needs to keep those jobs in China to make China great again.
I'm European. I see what is happening around me. You are some burger who probably never left your country. People are far more into Asia in general than they were 10 years ago and almost everyone hates USA. Thank your 3 clown presidents in a row. And endless failed wars.
Lol no I am Philippino and I post original impressive posts not meme soulless copybara. You can check time of post it is GMT+8. Beijing time same like Manila.
Chinks are getting other better paid jobs. Chinese middle class is already at least just as rich as americans and europeans. Chinese tourists carry much better electronics than average guy in UK or France.
>Average
These groupings take on a new meaning in the context of China as you're talking about a country of 1.4 billion. Even with China's elites and middle class excluded, you still have nearly 750 billion peasants to provide labour... this is an entire Europe's worth of an underclass residing in one nation.
most IMPRESSIVE pasta seems to contain Yank spellings and yank English practices.
>That's a very childish thing to say. Europe was filled with great powers long before the rise of the US
I never implied otherwise- I was merely stating that they have traditionally been under the wing of the US since WW2 ended.
>Europe is now finding out that they need to hedge not just against China and Russia, but also the US
I don't think we are going to be competing militarily with them.
>40795101
I'm not responding to your butthurt sperging, but you're welcome to continue "Shouting at the TV" if you want.
That is a very warped and adjusted definition of middle class. Median household income and median wealth assesments put the median Western (North American + Western European) family exponentially far above the Chinese median.
I commonly see many Chinese tourists here in Britain and they do not reliably represent the true Chinese middle class.
>what does the impending mass introduction of the J-20 mean for the air power comparison between China and Russia?
We don't know yet how the J-20 compares to the Su-57, but as a numbers argument China will probably deploy far more J-20s before Russia has even 50 prepared for service.
>you still have nearly 750 billion peasants to provide labour
Those peasants are also making few times more $ than they were 30 years ago. Chinese politicians actually think ahead not to next elections.
I have seen earlier today that Italy was accepting and willing going for their silk road project, but is Italy and they are really going full anti eu with salvini, don't about the rest
m8, my point is that in any outright land conflict against Russia, China is in a blessedly advantageous demographic situation as they have the spare numbers to throw against the Russian army.
>exponentially
You keep using that word...
And lol @ you thinking that their GDP is accurate. They don;t count lawyer shit and ((((financial)))) transactions in their GDP. ANd they don't tax small business and people with income
>Is a country with the world's second largest economy and continuously on the rise, better militarily that a floundering third world shithole that still hasn't fully recovered from the collapse of the Soviet union
Of course. Why is this even a thread?
excellent sources retard. No,China is not first world, no you are not individually wealthier than than us or the French.
cringe. Why are vatniks this fucking insecure? It's merely a comparison of military capability, really not a reason to begin threatening war on a Moldovan Trabant-tuning forum
You never saw how chinese cities look like today. In China cars are 2x more expensive than in the west yet so many people buy them government had to make lottery for number plates. And typical chinese car now has extras on the level of Tesla or average city chink won't even thing about buying it.
en.wikipedia.org
>Is China now a more capable land power than Russia?
On paper, the French and the British had a more impressive army than the Wehrmacht, in practice, not so much. You can't discount the human factor: training, doctrine and institutions are more important than any other thing in modern warfare, and guess what the Russians are focusing on despite (or rather) because of their material inferiority? Heck, what experience in modern combined arms warfare does the Chinese even have outside of joint exercises with the Russians?
>Their equipment is better,
I wouldn't say that. The Chinese might have access to Western technologies and late Soviet era tech, but their developments aren't informed by actual doctrine and battlefield experience. It all looks like mish-mash crap that was cribbed on because it looks good on paper. That's not how you make capable equipment.
>they don't have a conscript military
Lots of countries have "professional militiaries" as well, like Saudi Arabia. It just means they collect paychecks. What's important is the results you get at the end of the day. I wouldn't trade professional Chinese soldiers for a Russian conscript any day especially seeing the conduct of their peacekeepers.
if you think somehow pic related has half the (((GDP))) of Bangkok I have a bridge to sell you
Beijing and Shanghai are not all of China you seething queer. I too could begin boasting about the lives of Europe's upper class and pretend that they represent the norm.
>I mean, you just took one facet of things and ignored the fact that overall
No, I'm just pointing out the simple fact that land power is largely irrelevant in the modern era. China does have comparable, if not better, equipment; however, that's irrelevant if China can't dominate the airspace. China's air power can't be sustained if it lacks the engines needed for spares and new build jets. What's China's engine situation?
>the WS-10
The J-10 and J-11, and presumably the J-16, are still using Russian AL-31s. China claims they've *fixed* the problems with the WS-10, yet it still produces significantly less thrust than the AL-31. The goal of the WS-10 is to be comparable to the AL-31, so China is still lagging.
>the WS-15
The J-20's WS-15 engine is still broken and wasn't showcased as Zhuhai; so, China is also relying on the Russian AL-31 for the J-20.
The J-20 was supposed to be using an improved WS-10 until the WS-15 matured; however, the J-20s at Zhuhai in November were equipped with AL-31s.
>the Xian WP8
Lol nope, the new Xian H-6K/Js use actual RD-3Ms instead (Xian WP8 is a knockoff of the RD-3M).
Even the export-oriented JF-17 uses Russian RD-93s. In fact, the only Chinese engine that seems to be in use is the Harbin Z-9's Zhuzhou Aeroengine Factory WZ-8A which is a license-built copy of the Turbomeca Arriel. China is only capable of building the WZ-8A because France held their hand and walked them through how to produce it. This is the only military engine China license builds, everything else is purchased rather than licensed because even Russia refuses to allow China to license build its engines.
The point being China's land power is largely irrelevant because it is incapable of sustaining its air force in a Sino-Russian conflict.
China has hundreds of millions of wealthy people now. Just look at sales of luxury goods in china. Or chinese box office.
They have twice the population of EU and USA combined, of course they also have tons of poor.
>a vast landscape dominated by ugly residential high-rises and a token number of Western-designed business skyscrapers
m8, It's basically Rio De Janeiro
and Guangzhou, Shenzhen, Tianjin, Changchun, Changsha, Chengdu, Chongqing, Dalian, Fuzhou, Harbin, Hefei, Jinan, Kunming, Nanchang, Nanjing, Nanning, Ningbo, Qingdao, Shenyang, Shijiazhuang, Suzhou, Taiyuan, Wenzhou, Wuhan, Wuxi, Xiamen, Xi'an, Zhengzhou
Looks like a really weird Coca Cola advertisement.
If China really did have "hundreds of millions" of people who are wealthy by Western standards, they would have a total wealth measuring in the hundreds of trillions of dollars.... if not a quadrillion.
en.wikipedia.org
Being wealthy by gutter-oil sipping, renmibi counting standards doesn't mean much on the global stage
Most burgers don't even know those cities exist. They think 90% of china is rice farming villages.
>Mongoloids, Siberians and the third largest desert to the north
>All the shita'stans and poos to the west
>genociding monks and gooks to the south
>ocean and Best Korea to the east
Literally nothing of value is anywhere near China's land projection besides worst Korea and their too pussy to help the norks out anymore. Every country around China has little strategic value to the West and no one would give a damn if the Chinese, Indians and Pakis nuked each other and killed half the worlds population. A bigger issue is the repercussions from China's meddling in Africa.
You realize money have different value in different countries right? And that China as a market is growing insanely fast in literally every field?
>The point being China's land power is largely irrelevant because it is incapable of sustaining its air force in a Sino-Russian conflict.
Modern air wars will be over before spares start coming into the equation in the way you suggest. Also, I really really disagree with the "land power is irrelevant" thing, but It's late.
>Le burgers is so dumb unlike us culchad urupians
The average Europoor couldn't rattle off 20 cities in China either, dipshit. The dumb stuff I've heard from Euro tourists about American geography is astounding.
>Being wealthy by gutter-oil sipping, renmibi counting standards
Read that line again you simian.
this one too does look like Rio De Janeiro kek
>China is in a blessedly advantageous demographic situation as they have the spare numbers to throw against the Russian army.
In modern warfare it just means more mouths to feed. Do you think the Russians would just let you mobilize that population base? They'd fucking target all the most important infrastructures first and watch as the Chinese devolve into eating themselves. You can respond in kind, but the Russian heartland is more than 3000 km away from the Chinese border and a land invasion would have you trying to rebuild a transportation infrastructure in the middle of bumfuck nowhere for at least 4000 kms while getting harried all the way.
It's especially pathetic when you realize that the person he's arguing with ITT is British, yet he's still obsessed with Americans. Can't understand why chinks and euros all have such a obsessive chip on tye shoulder
>Can't understand why chinks and euros all have such a obsessive chip on tye shoulder
Maybe becasue for the last 20 years americans keep invading countries, losing wars and ruining everything around them?
>This one chinkoid ITT has launched into yet another "MUH SKYSCRAPERS" post session and is desperately evading my question
Wonder why he won't address this post honestly . It's almost as though he's is treating the 90th percentile of China's population as the average, and comparing it with the 50th percentile of the population here in Europe.
Haha I told you, they simply can't unfocus and have to shit on them every opportunity, save some who are actually answering
So that's why eurotrash and asians suffer from an inferiority complex and constantly feel the need to prove their worth and importance to Americans? Kek
to be fair, it's just some retarded brit and some angry chinaposter fighting each other ITT
We should make a dayly china thread in almost every board with some country reference, it would spare a lot of time if they could shit in one only and focus on the board on the rest
>retarded brit
fuck off. I'm merely trying to get the 50cent propagandist in here to address his own nonsense. All he's doing is to spam the thread with pictures of cityscapes with skyscrapers (all of which were designed by european firms kek) and ugly china-built residential flats
Well said satan
Probably. The Central Asians could give a fuck, and will continue to not give those fucks right up until China starts trying to relive history and wave its dick around the area, at which point those states will purchase and borrow a generous amount of Russian ammunition and Russian vehicles and tarpit Chinese ambitions for twenty years.
All the while funneling craploads of stuff to the Chinese North West, and making threatening noises when China tries to re-crackdown on Xijiang. A lot of people don't know this, but the reason it took China so long to put its boot down on Xijiang is because the Soviets maintained a few armies just across the border, ready to push their shit in if they oppressed the Uiyghurs a little too hard.
>Europe is pro-Europe now
No it isn't
>Average chinese makes too much money to be a cheap assembly line drone like in the past.
That means the average Chinese drone has money to spend and the demand for stuff for which he will spend his money.
it's already been addressed you retard. Look at the size of the market for automobile or anything of high value, their middle class is already bigger than yours. Or you think the dirt farmers who earn 500 dollar a month are going to buy those Tesla?
Indeed. The consumer market in a third world shithole with 1.4 billion customers is still larger than the consumer market in a wealthy, fully industrialised nation with only 66 million.
How insightful. That still doesn't prove that the median chinese family in any way compares to the median british or French family. This is the argument you are desperately trying to flee
>WS-10
The engine that was built but is still too unreliable to actually use
>WS-13
The engine that Guizhou claims is ready for serial production and installation on the JF-17; yet, Pakistan continues to buy new RD-93s instead of WS-13s for its JF-17s and China continues to build JF-17s with RD-93s instead of WS-13s.
Also, the F-31/J-31 is supposed to make use of the WS-13; yet, both prototypes use RD-93s.
>Modern air wars will be over before spares start coming into the equation in the way you suggest.
That's one potential outcome, yes.
>Also, I really really disagree with the "land power is irrelevant" thing, but It's late.
Land power matters in 2 situations: (1) occupying territory and (2) Russia invading Europe.
China's land power seems solely relevant as an occupying force in a Sino-Russian war; however, that would lead to a protracted conflict where supplies would become necessary.
>exponentially far above the Chinese median.
>I commonly see many Chinese tourists here in Britain and they do not reliably represent the true Chinese middle class.
I'm pretty familiar with Shanghai wages. A China based Chinese engineer in the automotive field makes 40-60k USD. And there are a lot of them.
I think you should look at the number of Chinese earning more than 50k a year, and you have to remember that Chinese consumer leverage is very low.
>I was merely stating that they have traditionally been under the wing of the US since WW2 ended.
Have they? I think that's a very condescending thing to say, not to mention inaccurate.
Yes, the US is the main driver of NATO, but it's quite clear European foreign policy is very much independent of the US. Just consider Germany and France's excellent relationship with Russia.
dumbass.
>I don't know my ass from my mouth but I feel the need to front: the post and the poster.
>Shanghai average = Chinese average
And the sorts that send their children to public schools represent the British average.
>t. retard
I said high price luxury goods.
>1.4 billion consumer market
LMAO. Is your pea brain imagining 10 chinks pooling money for a BMW?
Who gives a shit about "median" their absolute number of middle class exceeds yours and that is all that matters.
>I know all of those cites from nuke map
>Who gives a shit about "median"
Exactly. It doesn't matter that 85% of China is composed of dangerously impoverished 3rd worlders, as long as a few million living in a handful of cities can afford Hermes bags, Teslas, and vintage gutter oil.
>The J-10 and J-11, and presumably the J-16, are still using Russian AL-31s
this is ABSOLUTELY false. Your post should be disregarded on this basis alone.
>China claims they've *fixed* the problems with the WS-10, yet it still produces significantly less thrust than the AL-31.
Unconfirmed and most likely false with WS-10A. Your source, once again, is Richard Fisher. A fucking moron.
>The J-20's WS-15 engine is still broken and wasn't showcased as Zhuhai; so, China is also relying on the Russian AL-31 for the J-20.
Confirmed, but since I also don't have significant evidence for engine choice in the LRIP 2 aircrafts (WS-10X), I won't say it's wrong.
>Even the export-oriented JF-17 uses Russian RD-93s
WS-13A. It was flying with it. Not sure if the PAF accepted it for Block3. Since Block 1 and 2 do use RDs, you are technically correct. BUT there is photographic evidence of WS-13A inside of an FC-1 during flight testing from at least 2 years ago.
>This is the only military engine China license builds (WZ-8A)
False. WS-13/A. WS-10/A. The Z-9 powerplant. etc
>The point being China's land power is largely irrelevant because it is incapable of sustaining its air force in a Sino-Russian conflict.
Absolutely asinine. Wars are fought with the inventory you have on hand. Why do you think PLAAF and PLANAF do not have spare engines in their inventory?
You're a fucking moron.
>Do you think the Russians would just let you mobilize that population base? They'd fucking target all the most important infrastructures first and watch as the Chinese devolve into eating themselves.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
is this nigga foreal?
I'm a burger and even I see it. It's all over Hollywood and media. Everything now features china to some extent.
I think China is overhyped to shit but I ain't going to knock their PR moves which seem to be working.
Next 10-20 years are going to be something
>The engine that was built but is still too unreliable to actually use
except, you now, it's in all Chinese flankers except the original knock down kit 27SKs.
>Also, the F-31/J-31 is supposed to make use of the WS-13; yet, both prototypes use RD-93s.
We've only seen 1 airframe. The entire project is a private venture so until we hear of a foreign buyer, we won't be seeing much.
>several hundred millions
fixed that for you.
And yes it doesn't matter
Are you masturbating to the thought that they will revolt? ROFL
Would you like the know the population of all the Chinese tier 1 cities put together? I think you should look at some hard data before drawing conclusions.
>. It doesn't matter that 85% of China is composed of dangerously impoverished 3rd worlders
>85%
I see public education in GB is just as poor as those in the US.
m8, I didn't make you cry with my posts, did I?
China is a third world shithole and that is fine. No need to waste your monthly savings on electricity just to (You) me with your seething.
The real cancer in this board are the Ameritards; who haven't had a real military since the 90s and early 00s somehow feel the need to compensate
>fuk u chink
Try again fags
You quoted 2 different posters. I'm No, you just gave me a chuckle.
And don't you worry about my electricity, m8. I can afford it.
Good. Don't spend all your money so soon. The Yulin Dog Meat Festival is coming in 3 months
>that hardware
sheeeeeeeeeit what do you do nigger
Oh, don't you worry about me, bbyboi.
I got cash to spare. A few kilos of pupper delite is no big deal for yours truly.
shitpost on Jow Forums, obviously.
China's army is configured te police China, not to engage in expeditionary wars.