Why does everyone here hate katanas and other Japanese blades so much? Is it just because people hate weeaboos? I think Japanese blades are very beautiful and functional for the time and era they were used in.
While I understand that people will say European blades are superior, you really have to admire how the Japanese worked around their limitations. At the time their nation had no access to good quality fuel or steel, and yet they were able to work around that by using very labor and skill intensive techniques for forging their weapons. You don't have to love them or fawn over them but I just really don't understand the amount of hate these things get on this board. I guess I attribute it either to general hatred of weeaboos and everything they like or the standard Jow Forums contrarianism where everything you can't afford or is popular is dogshit.
The usual overzealously contrarian pushback after years of superior Nippon steel folded 1000000 times memes.
Levi Carter
Inb4100 posts of myths and countermyths with a good proportion of shitposting.
Liam Robinson
>Why does everyone here hate katanas and other Japanese blades so much? Is it just because people hate weeaboos? I think Japanese blades are very beautiful and functional for the time and era they were used in. the katana is fine, its as good as any other sharpened metal bar humans arw generally intelligent adaptable creatures who will do the best with whats given to them japanese are no exception and the katana is an extension of their cultural-economic conditions
the problem is that mainstream media has created a cult of worship around the katana calling it the greatest weapon of all time naturally, this gets annoying for people who have even rudimentary knowledge of swords and they then hype up other swords to show their superiority to the mainstream choice, in this case longswords
however, Jow Forums is both contrarian and an echo chamber, so the people who agreed that longswords need more respect eventually crowded everyone out and devolved into a shit on the katana crowd and now people cant talk about the katana because that group shouts them down as weaboos
basically, classic reactionary group becomes the top dog, secures power, then prevents meaningful discussion
Matthew Davis
We are now at peak longswordfagging. Within a year Katanas will become popular again, first ironically. Neo-weebs will reclaim their rightful clay for the Jow Forumsatana. Because Katanas at the same time period as European or Middle Eastern or Indian swords were objectively shit. Who knew when you're an isolated island at the edge of the world, technology spreads pretty slowly to you. So while everyone else was busy killing eachother and learning from it, Japan was busy killing themselves and not learning much. Also a lot of things that were pushed as evidence for the superiority of katanas was bullshit >muh thousand times folded steel Is what literally the entire rest of the world hand been using pretty much since steel was discovered. It's a cheap way to make shit-tier materials more usable, by mixing low-carbon steel or iron together, along with a good carbon steel cutting edge. Europeans quit doing this because proper steel production techniques were discovered.
Shashka suck. Gimme year of the szabla husarska or year of the kilij
Zachary Hughes
Japan was advanced in technology compared to the Europeans in some areas but not others. Their lack of metallurgy technology in comparison to the Europeans mostly stems from their lack of good quality steel. Whereas other areas at least had the capability to produce small quantities of good high-carbon steel and mix it in (India, the Middle East), Japan was basically fucked. Their extremely labor intensive forging techniques (and therefore the cult of worship around their swords) shows this.
The Japanese have always been quick to pick up new technologies after they've been introduced, though. The first firearms came to Japan in 1543, and it was literally just two matchlocks bought from shipwrecked Portuguese. Within a few years they had 300,000 of them and were equipping entire armies. Japan didn't even have a true navy until the 1870s, and yet by the 1940s they had the second largest fleet in the Pacific and had beaten the Chinese and Russians (twice), which everyone else thought impossible. To this day, the Japanese produces the highest quality optics for maritime use (among other uses) in the world, and the quality of their night optics in WWII (and following the Battle of Savu Island) forced the US Navy to issue orders to never engage Japanese surface vessels at nighttime.
Easton Sullivan
>Jow Forums is both contrarian and an echo chamber This
Caleb Nguyen
> One sided blade
Gavin Wilson
Damn that's a damn fine picture. Love it every time.
Eli Nguyen
One sided blades are probably the most common swords in history. I don't think you know shit about how swords work if you think a double-edge is necessary or even beneficial in most cases.
Tyler Cooper
I hate the people who pretend they're superior to other blade designs when that is objectively incorrect. I do admire the aesthetic work put into the blade, and the artistry and rarity of the very few forges who still produce them the old way using the old tools and techniques. That being said, if I had to fight with a sword, I'd rather use a double edged straight blade with a fully developed guard rather than a single edged curved blade with zero guard.
Thomas Torres
>Japan was advanced in technology compared to the Europeans in some areas but not others No they weren't. >Their lack of metallurgy technology in comparison to the Europeans mostly stems from their lack of good quality steel. Nowhere has good quality steel. Japan didn't have good quality iron. Neither does most of the world. That's why proper production techniques are required.
>the rest Mostly true but >Nobody thought Japan could beat Russia That mostly stems from the entire Western World banding together to curbstomp China, which they did quite effortlessly. To think a much smaller and supposedly less powerful nation could take on a European one and win was surprising.
Now, I'm not saying Japan's rapid advancement was anything less than astounding, but Russia was fucking garbage. They were incompetent on every level. But still, Japan genuinely went from a feudal agrarian society to an industrial westernized one in a single generation. That's amazing.
>not hacking down non-believers with a sharpened crucifix heathens get out REEEEEEEE
Any woodworker who has spent time studying Japanese carpentry will tell you that it is objectively superior to Western carpentry. The virtual absence of nails or adhesives results in incredibly strong and durable structures, which is why there are shit tons of 1,000 year old wooden buildings in Japan whereas they are exceedingly rare elsewhere.
I would also argue that Japan advanced quicker than Europeans for a long time and then stagnated, much like China. While Europeans were still struggling to learn how to rotate crops again and living in mud huts after the Fall of the Roman Empire, the Japanese were enjoying a time of relative peace and prosperity similar to China at the time. Like China though, they gradually turned to more isolationist policies, whereas Europeans branched out and advanced at a staggering pace because of it.
Oliver Carter
Rule 44. Otherwise, it's a neat sword but that's about it--it's a product of its environment and not an end-all-be-all bladed weapon. Naginata is a dope polearm, though.
Jason Rogers
Well I guess I should qualify this a bit better: I'm not saying Japan was some utopian paradise compared to Europe. I'm saying that while Europe went through several periods of prosperity and advancement followed by periods of stagnation, Japan and China seemed to rise meteorically to an extremely advanced society but then plateaued out and spent like a thousand years of just doing the same shit until the Europeans came along.
Lincoln Edwards
Only thing that would make it better is a glass of neat vodka and a plate with blini and pickled vegetables on it.
Ethan Gonzalez
Yeah, Russia tried to industrialize immediately, too. Turned out awful. China has been taking it slow.
Brandon Watson
>China has been taking it slow What do you think the Great Leap Forward was?
Ryan Stewart
>Any woodworker who has spent time studying Japanese carpentry will tell you that it is objectively superior to Western carpentry. They will tell you no such fucking thing, faggot.
I'm not saying old wooden European buildings don't exist, they do. But Japan has far more of them per capita, the principle reason being that the lack of adhesives or fasteners leaves less room for rot and decay to enter the wood and for corrosion to destroy the strength of the joint. I've been working with wood for 20 years, 15 of those as a boatwright. I've met a lot of carpenters in my day and just as I said, virtually all of them who have even a passing interest in Japanese carpentry admit that it is superior to traditional Western carpentry. Now, most of them choose not to practice it, and I don't either, but I'm not so stuck up and ignorant that I'll refuse to give credit where credit was due.
Ian Peterson
But European planes are objectively far better than traditional Japanese planes. Nip planes are fucking dogshit, they have a weird obsession with cutting on the pull stroke, which is situationally better with saws but worse with planes. They make good chisels though.
Oliver Thomas
OP is right. I can't think of a better bladed weapon than Katana for its intended purpose of carving up unarmed peasant women cowering in the corner of their paper-walled hut.
>you really have to admire how the Japanese worked around their limitations. >At the time their nation had no access to good quality fuel or steel, and yet they were able to work around that by using very labor and skill intensive techniques So you probably also love pic related too, right? Probably not, weeaboo fag.
>While Europeans were still struggling to learn how to rotate crops again and living in mud huts after the Fall of the Roman Empire.
History Channel meme, most of Europe got their shit together pretty quickly (with massive help from the church) . Within 200 years it was business as usual but with no fake democracy and no moneylenders.
Cameron Ross
No domesticated animals really caps off a societys progress.
Parker Morales
Memes aren't a substitute for actual knowledge of what you're talking about
Hudson Clark
OP here, I don't know a whole lot about Mesoamerican weaponry and armor but I know that their obsidian blades and whatnot were incredibly sharp, and they had a very advanced society in comparison to the rest of the Americas. So yes, I do love your picture. I think it's a cool weapon. Stop assuming that everybody who likes what you don't like is an idiot.
Brody Sanders
A euphemism
Brandon Richardson
One time I had a guy in an mmo tell me unironically that he saw a katana folder over 1000x by a master sword smith cut a car engine block in half. He became completely incensed and freaked the fuck out when I said that was impossible and that he was making things up.
There is so much autism surrounding katanas that they will never be taken seriously ever again. They were good for when and where they were, but up against even basic chainmail they are all but worthless. Saying nothing of actual plate armor or shields.
Well that's fair enough then. Both the katana and macuahuitl were basically the best that weapons technology could get in Japan and Mexico respectively. Both were absolutely fantastic weapons for what was available, but both also get completely BTFO by proper weapons. Katana wanking has historically (as far back as internet history goes anyway) been a gigantic thorn in the side of the entire internet so I'd personally say that it's contrarianism and weeb hate rolled into one. You're still a dum dum for posting about katanas though.
Isaiah Gonzalez
Contemporary European literature describes Japanese swordsmen as being extremely high quality and their swords as also being quite exceptional, if a bit short and heavy. Stop being retarded and read.
Andrew White
>mfw the bathrobe and planks of balsa wood tied together with dry grass i showed up to do glorious battle in are split in twain by steel folded 6 gorillion times
>Jow Forums >reading This place is a fucking autistic shitfest, nobody here does any actual research on anything before they run their mouth. We talk shit about guns we've never even seen in person before, we talk shit about the military performance of other countries' soldiers when 80% of this board has a BMI over 35, and we get all of our knowledge on this shit from memes. Nothing said here should ever be taken seriously or repeated IRL to actual experts on the subject unless you want to be laughed at.
Oh, I just figured you were being sarcastic. The Aztecs were based, including the whole human sacrifice thing
Mason Jenkins
>samurai used plate armor and chainmail in battle >glorious nippon blades could cut through anything even close to hardened steel it's like trying to cut through a refrigerator with a straight razor what in the fuck are you talking about
>have a Bachelors degree in history >btfo weebs all the time FeelsGoodman.
/his/ and /sci/ are by far the worst, anyone decently smart left for discord long ago.
Ian Price
I'm not saying they could cut through plate armor. I'm saying if the sword was dogshit for fighting armored people then why were they still really good at killing each other?
Cooper Campbell
>bragging about a bachelor's in history That's like saying you have a GED and using that to claim you're an authority on algebra. Ever notice how all the serious historical works are written by people with a doctorate? There's a reason for that.
Jose Garcia
>smart >discord lmaoing at ur life m8
Gabriel Gutierrez
>muh bachelor's Top kek, it's hilarious and pathetic when undergrads think their opinions on anything matter
Because swords are entirely over represented in media to the point where everyone thinks the feudal eras of any civilization were all 50,000 vs 50,000 1 on 1 sword fights. The overwhelming majority of infantry in japan and europe used spears. Spears are good at piercing, katanas are good for cutting unarmored people and for anime battles. Samurai were also known more for their skills with bows than with 2ft long razor blades which were more of a status symbol than an actual weapon of war. You could cause some damage with them but you would permanently fuck your katana up if you hit anything harder than starched cloth.
Hunter Williams
This is objectively, categorically, patently false. You would know this if you ever actually read a single book on Japanese military history. I agree with you about your point on the media misrepresenting ancient battles, and I also realize spears were the primary weapons of the ashigaru and other foot-soldiers in Japan. But katanas were absolutely used in warfare, and were more than just a status symbol.
The katana was originally designed for use on horseback, and that purpose is what gave it its curved blade and its original (much longer) length. As time went on they got shorter, foot-soldiers were increasingly used in clan warfare and therefore spears, bows (and later firearms) began to be employed for most of the fighting in large-scale battles. But to say that katanas were not used at all, or that using it would ruin your sword, simply isn't true. There are any number of historical accounts of samurai slain during battle. Many of these prints and historical works describe the sword used.
Just last week I saw a katana come up for sale that was the blade used by Hayashi Motokatsu to kill Asakura Kageharu in battle. The blade was in perfect condition despite being over 400 years old.
Not to mention that the thought that a smith cannot repair a damaged blade is silly.
John Barnes
Lol show me your doctrines, I'm in the middle of getting my graduate degree right now and will be going on to get a phd. I probably know more about history then any of you losers ever will.
Angel White
> I probably know more about history then any of you losers ever will. And this is how you can spot a retarded know-it-all undergrad. The very fact that you lump "history" together as if it's one thing you can know everything about is hysterical to me. People specialize in areas of historical research for a reason, kid. Reading a bunch of 100 level history books that gloss over hundreds or thousands of years of history for a region in a few hundred pages does not make you smart. You're like the stereotypical fedorafag with a "debate me" t-shirt. You genuinely believe that you know what you're talking about.
Nathan Wood
>Paying actual money to get a master's degree in history
Holy shit, how fucking stupid can you be?
David Sullivan
Of course they were used, longswords were also used. That doesn't mean they were their first choice of weapon in warfare. Owning a katana or longsword were both seen as massive status symbols. Every peasant could use a spear and they were cheap to mass produce requiring very little steel or skill needed to raft them comparatively. Having a steel sword or especially decent armor in feudal times in japan or europe was like owning a rolls royce. Yes you can repair chinks and folds in a blade, but with the way katanas were made this required a great deal of effort and a talented smith. Do you really want to bust the fender off your sports car and go to a shop every time you drive it?
In most the edo era when even basic footsoldiers wore chainmail, the katana was entirely worthless for its intended purpose of slashing. Thrusting with a katana is trash specifically because of the curve. A "much longer" katana was an odachi, adding about a foot of length and was -much- harder to make. These were not common weapons and the curve of the blades has absolutely nothing to do with fighting from horseback specifically, even if that's something they were used for.
All of this of course almost completely veers away from the point of the thread but here we are. Katanas were fine, but they were not cutting trees in half like in my japanese cartoons and vs anyone with decent armor would be like hacking away at the side of a building at a massive cost to your own weapon.
>A "much longer" katana was an odachi Not necessarily. There are a lot of different terms for Japanese blades. The katana, odachi, wakizashi etc. all evolved from the the tachi which was specifically designed for use on horseback in an upward slashing fashion. A tachi is not the same thing as an odachi/nodachi.
Also, the katana evolved from the tachi specifically because the tachi was not suited to cutting through the thick leather armor worn by the Mongols during their invasions of Japan. The katana evolved because something with less curve and more strength was needed in order to stab through armor as opposed to cutting through it.
Austin Stewart
Keep spurging fag, my specialty is the Mexican American War but I still have a better understanding of most history then you ever will. >implying you're not the one paying for it
>but I still have a better understanding of most history then you ever will. Tippity top kek. You know absolutely nothing about me and even then the undergrad cope allows you to somehow try to make yourself seem superior to me. It's almost like a superpower, I wish I could be that full of myself and confident that every word that comes out of my mouth is true.
You know nothing about me, but your pathetic little boasts on a Tibetan manuscript illumination bazaar tells everyone here a lot about you. You aren't shit in academia just because you have a little piece of paper that says you did your homework for 4 years.
Easton James
>spurging That is spelt with an 'e'.
Not hatin'. Just sayin.'
Christian Howard
>You aren't shit in academia just because you have a little piece of paper that says you did your homework for 4 years.
Mad that they kicked you out of community college?
Charles Reyes
I'll concede on that point then, I had never heard of a "tachi" until now. I admit I am not entirely versed in everything japanese as asian culture in general is not something that is terribly interesting to me. I'm a big swordfag though so I put myself through whatever paces the internet had to offer me on most types, and the katana seems to fail in almost every category when compared to feudal blades of most other cultures, most especially european weapons that existed before and during the same period.
If someone offered me a selection at gunpoint I would pick almost anything over a katana, including weapons made much earlier. I never understood how knights and samurai existed at the same time, when seemingly everything about european knights were just plain better from weapons to armor. Was it a lack of steel in japan? Or was the technology just not there yet? It seems odd to me that Japan wouldn't adopt superior tech without something holding them back from it.
>virtually all of them who have even a passing interest in Japanese carpentry admit that it is superior to traditional Western carpentry
Mostly because they have no real grasp of what western carpentry is. This is the katana meme all over again: a rehashing of the western myth of the "noble savage" only with wood instead of steel. Check out any 12th to 19th century resource on building and woodworking in the western world and you'll quickly see that, much like everything else, the Japs really don't have anything new or different to offer, and that all of their Oriental mystique is nothing more or less than their chronic cultural inability to advance without strong outside stimuli.
Also wooden boats are just toys for the bored and affluent, not viable, relevant alternatives to fiberglass and steel. Suck it, faggot.
Jayden Nelson
>Oriental mystique God I fucking hate this. Everything they do has to have some huge useless ceremony behind it. Wearing a robe while you cut noodles doesn't mean you're a wizard.
I don't particularly hate them and appreciate good examples but don't collect them I collect Napoleonic sabres and pattern swords, European small swords (the pinnacle of the development of the sword) and cavalry swords, bayonets etc. I do have ethnic arms like Cossack , Afghan,Sikh, North African etc though. The katana is relative to a European cavalry sabre of the Napoleonic era a poor weapon, in the genuine article prone to bending easily and above all made from poor raw material. It is aesthetic but I am also aware of the Shinto aspect and while I am fine with other objects do not keep either Japanese or Nazi artifacts (I had a relative who suffered under the Japanese as a POW on the Burma railroad). They are not very functional as you assume their form and everything about them comes from the terrible raw material available in Japan. If you want to see the finest weapons look to Germany Toledo, Birmingham and Milan, not Japan. As regards beauty, the blue and gilt techniques, damascining, metal carving and late renaissance pattern books are infinitely more inspired in Europe.
Chase Baker
Part of the reason Japan historically has alot of wooden structures and skilled carpentry works comes from the fact that Japan is relatively mountainous and resource poor (poor in metals and fossil fuels and far less quarries than Europe). Meaning they used what was most available to build their structures, which was usually wood and paper. Europeans were far more skilled at masonry structures and used them almost as often as wooden structures due to the abundance of quarries in medieval Europe. The skill put into European wooden structures was not necessarily inferior to the Japanese woodworkers (see European timber framing works).
When Hiroshima got nuked a bit over 70,000 structures were directly destroyed or indirectly burned from the fireball because the city was mostly made out of literally paper and wood. Most Japanese cities were still mostly constructed of wood and paper even during WW2 which is why the US firebombings were extremely effective on them.
>I had never heard of a "tachi" until now. You just admitted knowing effectively nothing about japanese swords then.
Brayden Parker
Genuine signed katanas come up at auction all the time, they are quite common and many European swords are far rarer. To get into them you really need to learn Japanese and the Japanese are a xenophobic people. They have a 'certification' system involving sending a sword to Japan that is expensive and tedious and can take up to a year. They can decide the sword is 'culturally significant' and legally keep it, fucking you over. Satsuma swords are all very the place and pretty shitty. Eurean swords are better, more fascinating, more beautiful and less surrounded by bullshit.
Jayden Lopez
Except of course all of the other things i said about every other type of japanese sword which are vastly more popular and are what the actual thread is about. Glad they finally upgraded to something that could cut through fucking leather though.
Go learn Japanese eh? I'm familiar with all of f these terms and yet while my focus is European there are more interesting metalurgy than Japan found in India in 18th century talwars and munghal steel. Above all the Japanese sword official bodies in Japan have absolutely destroyed international interest by making the paperwork from them which is expensive and difficult and time consuming to get vital to provenance. The sword must go to them in Japan. Once there they can decide to keep it if important without compensation. I don't see katanas for example as any better than e.g Burmese swords or e.g moro, Cossack, Arabian, Persian, Indian and they are nearly always worse metalurgy and functional lyrics worse. So Japanese swords can fuck off particularly since the Japanese government lobbies foreign governments to ban them to suit the Japanese collectors who, have to get permission from the state. A fetish for crap inspired by Hollywood. I suggest OP you visit a good museum like the met and find out about beautiful swords instead of making a big deal about weeb crap you know nothing about that the Japanese have intentionally made toxic for non Japanese to get involved with. It is in the end of the day a marginal ethnic weapon of poor metalurgy and inferior design.
Liam Sanders
GRORIOUS NIPPON STEERR
Anthony Bennett
>Except of course all of the other things i said about every other type of japanese sword It would have helped if what you said was actually interesting and noteworthy and not 90's knowledge.
>Glad they finally upgraded to something that could cut through fucking leather though. Tachi were supposed to face haramaki do and o-yoroi but keep on. I mean you already admitted you weren't versed in everything japanese so... (and there's no problem in that, don't think you have anything of value to add).
Colton Ortiz
>GRORIOUS NIPPON STEERR >It is in the end of the day a marginal ethnic weapon of poor metalurgy and inferior design.
Which by the way excepting WW2 (which was largely mass produced crap even the weebs thing was shit) completely absent rom the great conflicts that shaped the world. Less interesting historically, inferior design very prone to bending latterly, inferior materials and an absolutely fucked up 'official' governing body for them which is little better than a confidence trick scam to try and screw over any non Japanese who take an interest in them. For me the high points of edged weapons are found elsewhere, Napoleonic sabres, small swords from the era of duelling, Indian and Persian wootz swords, Cossack knives , even Sudanese broadswords from the 19th century are more interesting because there is the possibility they saw battle of Omdurman and the fall of Khartoum. The Satsuma rebellion is interesting but again, the Japanese Satsuma swords of that event are the next tier of garbage under ww2 nco swords. The crude (but made from better steel) brown bess bayonet did more to change global history and saw more fighting than every katana ever made.
Carter Cox
>90's knowledge I don't even know what that means. They just figured out katanas weren't actually lightsabers in the 1990's? 1690's?
>some more off topic stuff Dispute something I said and we can talk about that, because you still haven't. All you've said is "you don't know about that one thing you explicitly said you didn't know about". I even asked for more information to fill in the gaps in my knowledge but instead I get baseless condescending fedoraposting ironically in a thread about why the katana is hated.
shiting on in basic weebsword terminology while not replying to just shows aspirational weebsword neets for what they are, blisteringly ignorant on edged weapons and even the process for certifying Japanese edged weapon for provenance
Robert Bailey
>and in a puff of vape smoke and a whiff of armpit he vanishes, never to be heard from again
>Of course they were used, longswords were also used. That doesn't mean they were their first choice of weapon in warfare. First choice doesn't mean anything, it's basically video game knowledge. A warrior back then didn't "choose" anything, he had and knew how to use all the weapons he needed for various contexts hence why they all wore swords, but in the same vein, just because a dagger isn't the first choice of a warrior doesn't mean it isn't a very important part of their gear. Every warrior needs a sword because it fills a gap bows and polearm don't, just because it isn't a "primary" doesn't mean it's unimportant or second-value.
>Owning a katana or longsword were both seen as massive status symbols. Having a steel sword or especially decent armor in feudal times in japan or europe was like owning a rolls royce Depends when, remember that the feudal era ended in the 1860's in Japan. In the 15-16th century, swords were very common for all warriors in both places. By these times, Japan was shitting so many kobuse-style blades they could arm tens of thousands warriors easily. It only became a status symbol during the edo era.
>Thrusting with a katana is trash specifically because of the curve. Yet thrusts are used all the time in japanese fencing. The curve usually is of not even an inch which is perfectly adequate if you know what you're doing.
>Tachi can't cut leather You realize that the tachi was introduced in samurai warfare at the same time as heavy metal armors? At that time they hadn't used leather armor for centuries.
>Yes you can repair chinks and folds in a blade, but with the way katanas were made this required a great deal of effort and a talented smith. Not really, samurai bending their swords back on their knees mid-battle was a very common occurence. Besides, not all katana were superb work of art people were concerned about slightly damaging. Chinks are commonly seen on antics because people didn't bothered fixing them.
Grayson Moore
Maybe, but it needs to be said aloud from time to time. By all means, like whatever you like; just keep it in a realistic context.
Benjamin Hernandez
All true but the main reason for non Japanese to avoid collecting them or taking any particular interest in them is this
>Above all the Japanese sword official bodies in Japan have absolutely destroyed international interest by making the paperwork from them which is expensive and difficult and time consuming to get vital to provenance. The sword must go to them in Japan. Once there they can decide to keep it if important without compensation
The 'paperwork' that accompanies a katana is worth more than the katana without it. Its also quite true that even in terms of duelling there was more of it occurring in Europe with smallswords. The majority of katanas were essentially objects of social control by what were essentially ruthless tax collectors for slicing up peasants who missed some aspect of protocol expressing deference when passing on the road. A light cavalry or heavy cavalry sword that was in the charge of the scots greys at waterloo or a French cuirassiers sword that charged with ney is far more historically important in global history
Connor Brooks
>like whatever you like; just keep it in a realistic context.
Sure but I can discuss metallurgy with e.g a Sikh talwar enthusiast and use expressions like fuller and grain whereas the weebsword enthusiasts have to disappear up their own arses with weebspeak and unbowing deference to committees in Japan who hold them in complete contempt and steal anything that they happen to find that is of any interest
Carson Green
1) This isn't contrary to what I said. Yes they had backup weapons (at least samurai did, the vast majority of infantry were not samurai like the majority of european infantry were not knights), yes they used different ones based on what the situation demanded. Even current infantry carries a knife, that doesn't mean they start engagements with their knife out. Range->less range->least range Bows->spears->swords Cannons->Muskets->bayonets So on and so on
2) I don't see rice farmers or other peasants who were in battles having katanas. Again, samurai yes. Being a samurai was a status symbol alone and carrying a suitable weapon(or weapons) was part of that. Freemen drafted into battles in europe were not carrying longswords or even shields until much later in the era when equipment was more abundant. Even then decent chainmail/helmet and a solid spear were the weapons of choice.
3) You can thrust with anything that has a point on it of course. A ballpoint pen will make do in a pinch, but my argument was that they would not pierce even chainmail let alone any kind of plate. Bows and spears were used for that. Two fully kitted samurai hacking at each other with katanas would be death by a thousand bruises.
4) The tachi was changed drastically to repel the mongols who used thick leather and hides as armor because the standard tachi would not get through them. Katanas are subsequent advancements.
5)I'm sure that not all of them were glorious nippon steel mined from the heart of mt fuji, folded by an ancient smith in a volcano, quenched under a raging waterfall, but steel was ludicrously expensive either way. Chinks are commonly seen on antiques because the cost of repairing them was silly and only lends to my point. Anyone who has ever owned a knife knows that a blade with a single roll or chink in it is made infinitely less useful, and if they had the means they would have had them repaired.
Andrew Johnson
Like any other country with armies of people where maybe 3 could afford armour of any sort
Spears, hundreds of peasants poking at them with spears
Angel Brown
>that doesn't mean they start engagements with their knife out. And that doesn't mean that the knife is bad or a subpar weapon for that. The spear and glaive isn't better than the sword because bushi started the fight with them.
>I don't see rice farmers or other peasants who were in battles having katanas. Because you think that rice farmes were the ones constituing the feudal armies? You think that european armies were made of peasant levies as well? Besides, Samurai in japanese armies were much more numerous than knights in Europe, up to 20-25% especially with jizamurai. As I said, by the 15-16th c. pretty much all infantrymen had katana/swords, that's precisely why in Japan they had different ways of forging a blade, some of which was to build decent easy to manufacture ones. Katana were status symbols only after the sword hunt of the late 1580's, before that, everybody could have one and most wore some in battle. The uchigatana/katana was specifically designed for that.
>Two fully kitted samurai hacking at each other with katanas would be death by a thousand bruises. Japanese fencing do use thursts but also cuts at gaps, in the open parts targetting forearms and neck. Sorry but it show again you don't know what you're talking about. youtube.com/watch?v=8aeWU8CYl5M youtube.com/watch?v=TnQgajmbEhE
tl:dr at that point I'll admit I'm arguing for the sake of it.
Joshua Fisher
Depends on the part of feudal japan you're talking about. For the last 300 years of it they mostly used guns
Ryder Ramirez
>the standard Jow Forums contrarianism where everything you can't afford or is popular is dogshit.
O I can afford them easily but would pass them me up without hesitation for a blue and gilt Napoleonic sabre or an 18th century blue and gilt smallsword, a blue and a wootz talwar from the fall of the Sikh empire, a pappenheimer rapier from the battle of lutzen or a claymore from the era of culloden because I like history and well made swords. signed Katanas without paperwork are at auction houses throughout the UK, France etc. near daily for less than e.g blue and gilt 1803 flank officers swords. The scam with 'valuable' Japanese blades is getting the paperwork for them which is good luck and fuck you if you re not Japanese, licenced to own one in Japan, fluent in Japanese and all you end up with is an ethnic weapon made from inferior materials that had no place in the great events of civilisation
Lincoln Green
1) Nothing wrong with a knife, no. But spears are absolutely 100% better than a sword in almost every situation. Outside of fighting inside an ice cream truck you always want a spear. Since the times of cavemen history has proven the effectiveness of spears countless times over, and the katana or the longsword don't hold a candle to it. Even in current melee clubs with combined knowledge of many different sword techniques together the spear can hold multiple opponents with swords very far from the spearman.
2) European armies were hugely consisted of drafted peasants/serfs with spears, yes. Freemen in England were required to own their own equipment if they were called upon, and many of them made up entire archery regiments. Before chainmail was more widely available, thick starched cloth (surprisingly effective) clothing was used, with a basic metal helmet. If you didn't have these things and a good spear and you were drafted into battle, guess who is going to war with a rake and a cooking pot on his head?
3) Yeah I can definitely see attacking joints and things on plate mail or weak spots, but chainmail does not have these restrictions which is why it was widely adapted and became the armor of choice even in europe where spears, bows, and even the occasional longsword could be deflected with only contusion damage making its way through. You're still going to get fucked up if someone hits you in chainmail with a katana, but you're not going to lose an arm from it.
tl;dr arguing is fun isn't it? if I'm coming off as snarky or whatever i don't mean it i enjoy the conversation while i'm at work
Grayson Martin
Indo-Persian, Indian, Sikh and European swords re far more beautiful then Japanese swords. That is not an arbitrary statement, Techniques like kofgari inlaying of silver and gold, wootz, mercury evaporated blueing, damascening and even the tempering techniques using various materials such as again mercury or chilled oils evolved in Birmingham and Solingen , wootz crucible (and this is not arbitrary they managed to form carbon nanotubes), techniques for slow water powered grinding to form hollow ground tri form and Colichemarde small sword blades without ltering temper (which came from guilds in Solingen in Germany and spread to the UK and France) are far more advanced and the end results more beautiful, far more astounding craftsmanship and detailing than you will ever seen in the vast vast majority of Japanese edged weapons. The steels are infinitely better due to abundance of fine raw materials but there is a reason that places like Britain and German lead the industrial revolution and vast improvements in metallurgy are one of them. There is a small overlap historically between the active use of swords in combat and this explosion in technological advancement and it is not found in Japan, it is found in Europe between 1700 and 1900 and in indo-Persian from 1600-1800 (when the british destroyed the wootz steel industry). Artistically the renaissance dwarfs Japan in terms of creativity, there is no Japanese competitor to michaelaneglos David in sculpture and the engraving and use of materials found in northern Italy and Germany in the 17th century and the decorative aspects of those weapons were directly overlaid with that explosion in artistic techniques from the rediscovery of classical methods. Japan was a backwater where even artisticc techniques such as perspective arrived late and sculpture was primitive compared to Europe. I could go on. If you want beautiful an fine swords, you don't look to Japan primarily at all.
Owen Young
>100% better than a sword in almost every situation
Well not one horseback in close pressed combat or the narrow twisting backstreets of an 18th century town....
Mason Gray
Burgonet Alla Romana Antica (no date) Filippo Negroli (c. 1510–1579)
The Japanese were relatively speaking cavemen compared to European armourers, this is not Japans 'fault' they lacked raw materials and were culturally isolated. But it is nonetheless true.
if i were to fight against untrained opponent id use spear if i could, if not id use European sword with kite shield
Brayden Campbell
Some people here actually love swords and have immersed themselves in them for 10-20-30 years. You should fuck off and rethink everything you know. /k shits on weebsworders for very good reasons.
Charles Gutierrez
Enjoy beeing a jobless looser for the rest of your life. T. Master in history
Nicholas Cook
also they werent leveled to the ground by 2 world wars
Josiah Johnson
Nothing to do with it, the rediscovery of classical architecture during the renaissance did. Events like the great fire of London and the burning of Magdeburg along with the impetus given by the construction of fortifications and cathedrals and the formation of guilds advanced European architectural techniques far beyond Japanese. This begins in the very early normal period and then accelerates rapidly during the renassiance building on the wonders of the classical age. Japan was part of none of this
Adam White
not making fun of you or anyone else in the field, just genuinely curious: what is the point of that? like what is the expectation of a career after getting a degree in history? i imagine teaching is one but then it's just more of the same question
