Why aren't former noble "knight" families active in the military anymore? By which I mean, why did the former landed minor nobles who made up the majority of knights and retainers in the Medieval world stop being present on the battlefield as officers and were relegated purely to ceremonial roles, usually in bureaucratic government roles and not battlefield ones?
In Japan, even after the Meiji Restoration and the theoretical abolition of the samurai class, former samurai and their families continued to be a major force in the armed forces. Many officers in the IJA and IJN were samurai, and to this day you will find many gunto swords that are not the mass-produced machine-made pieces of stainless steel pumped out in a factory for new NCOs and whatnot. I actually had the pleasure of meet a Japanese naval officer a few years back in Honolulu, his family was descended from samurai.
>tl;dr Why aren't European nobles a major presence in the armed forces anymore?
>Why aren't European nobles a major presence in the armed forces anymore? I blame England
Isaiah Gonzalez
How so? I'm guessing you're referring to the practice they had for a long time where you could literally buy yourself a commission if you came from a wealthy, landed family. That kind of nepotism probably went away after WWI when countries realized they needed competent officers and not just someone who got there because they had the right birth certificate. Is that what you're getting at?
Hudson Walker
Because being an officer in the military is something poor people aspire to. Now that theres no glass ceiling or elitism on who can be one, theres no particular value in it. Better for old-money types to have their sons become a banker or something with real power and prestige. The Brits still do it out of tradition, but its casual.
Camden Edwards
>Now that theres no glass ceiling or elitism on who can be one, theres no particular value in it That kinda raises another question I've had for a while: did being an officer used to pay better than it does nowadays? Proportionally, I mean. Like you guys have already said, the Royal Army had a fuck ton of wealthy people who were officers. Basically every European army did. So were those people getting paid a fuck ton of money? Or did most of their income come from their estates, and their military service was just seen as a prestige thing?
Brody Brown
there are a shitload of people that serve in the armed forces user, I'm sure a lot of them have noble ancestors. The real problem is that nobility has fallen out of style so even the people descended from many minor noble families aren't going to seem like nobles anymore.
If you want a personal example, someone in my family is really into the whole geneology and ancestry thing. They traced our family back to the crusades and found a knight. Later on the noble name was lost, but there were still lots of people of high class, and some of them were in the armed forces, mostly officer roles.
it doesn't just not happen anymore, your scope is just limited and you don't realize it's happening.
Ryder Taylor
They all died in the world wars.
Cooper Bailey
Depends on the country. The remaining monarchies like the UK, Sweden and so on still have their nobles, but without the incentivw to keep the loot you get after the battle, it‘s really not that attractive to people who are already rich to get a low paying job in some military formation. Then we have the republics like France, Russia and Czechia that either removed their nobles by force or just ignored them until they fucked off to abother country. And lastly there are the countries that still have people with titles in it and a tradition of using them in the military, but they lost a bunch of wars and so nobody cares about the armed forces anymore. Most of those countries speak German.
Blake Bennett
> They traced our family back to the crusades and found a knight No they didn't.
Ryan Martinez
Short answer, what European Nobles?
Long answer, there isn't that many left and those that are left are so wealthy that they have no interest in war. The EU has also been pretty peaceful lately so there's no real need for or glory in a military career.
I mean, you Used to have knightly families serving as officers but that evolved into the Officer\enlisted divide and eventually disappeared.
Ethan Turner
Feudal systems were dictatorships, and slavers (knights, lords). The dictators/slavers were the only ones allowed weapons and armor. They had a relatively small area and set of people to subjugate.
These lords could be combined and called on by the king to fight further away. And that sufficed for a time.
But mercenary armies, guild armies, religious armies allowed non slavers/dictators access to weapons and armor. And mercenaries was just a small jump to the slaves/common man gaining weapons and armor.
Evolved means of controlling the common man means they can do the fighting and self enslaving themselves. Todays lords can just sit back.
Jayden Ward
They were given land in hostile territory. The goal (very successful in places like northern Ireland) was to literally change the population itself. In doing so popular opinion would change. As in the example northern Ireland, they now say the people may vote themselves part of Ireland. Knowing full well the occupation has tainted the voting pool to the point where no vote would happen. Allowing the occupying nation to look like it freed a people it has been ass raping for an eternity. Short version, those knights became land owners and the families took on another equally important role.
Jayden Bailey
>In Japan, even after the Meiji Restoration and the theoretical abolition of the samurai class, former samurai and their families continued to be a major force in the armed forces. Japan changed far more rapidly from feudalism into a capitalist nation state than most Euro countries did. By the time European militaries start looking a lot like the standing armies of modern nation states feudalism was already in major decline, and low level warrior-aristocrats were of no real importance.
Christian Moore
The turning point was the Burgundy Wars where Swiss Pikemen beat the shit out of Mounted Knights. Twice.
Asher Morris
Nobility doesn't exist as some recognized class of people in most European states. Those that exist are usually rich as fuck. Why would wealthy people serve in the army?
Easton Baker
Turning point wasn't on the battlefield, it was off the battlefield. Improved metallurgy, gunpowder weapons, social and economic changes all meant that some privileged class of warriors could no longer be able to exert dominance over ''lesser'' people. Trade and other forms of business became a lot more profitable than rent-seeking land ownership. Heavy cavalry was used and it was used effectively for centuries after Burgundy Wars. While high quality armor was still expensive as fuck and rare, munitions grade armor was quite available and mass produced, so most of heavy cavalry weren't nobles. There were still nobles in officer corps and cavalry and this was a long process, but over time it just died out in most of countries. Nobles either turned to more profitable shit, or they were swept away in revolutions and what not.
Camden Stewart
The abolition of primogeniture made nobles kinda meaningless.
And for the record the European Nobility DID enlist and die at around twice the rate of the commoners back in WW1and WW2. It has been posited by someone (Camilia Paglia?) that this created a power vacuum for the empowerment of various subversive elements which now avail themselves in our societies.
Those that are left are not "rich as fuck". They are old money. It has been watered down generation after generation. They still have land and buildings but the money is for all intents and purposes gone. They are not, not out spending like a footballer because that is below them. They don't have that kind of money anymore. It's all for show.
Mason Reyes
The nobility has been and always will be the most intelligent AND physically capable of all peoples, those nobles that weren’t fell out of favor and onto the wayside only holding on to their noble name. The commoners will always be the stupid ones. That being said, the military still requires officers to hold a degree which may not mean much with current curricular standards, it still weeds out the retards because most retards can’t finish the first two years. Any one above a 100 iq will realize the importance of a degree, connections, appearances and in some cases the actual education. The nobility still exists in the military, you just have to look at it different way.
Nathan Powell
Because social status isn’t about military prowess or service anymore
It’s about money
Ethan Wright
They are though
Eli Moore
>implying people like Kanye west and Kylie Jenner have true power. Talking heads for the actual ((((elite))))
William Allen
>Be France >like 1/4 of each year's intake at Saint-Cyr is old nobility
Justin Peterson
>The nobility has been and always will be the most intelligent AND physically capable of all peoples, those nobles that weren’t fell out of favor and onto the wayside only holding on to their noble name.
That was the ideal but in practice, the nobility would use their power to secure their family's position so that even if they get an absolute moron for an heir that moron wouldn't fall from grace.
Aaron Butler
Nigger you are dumb.
Dominic Jenkins
Learn to read fucker. Social status is tied up on money.
Carter Powell
Samd with the english royalty. They all do time in the armed forces
Aiden Robinson
Stop blabbering nonsense you ignorant boomer. In most Feudal countries, the male citizens were REQUIRED to own weapons and armor that corresponded with the mans early wages, and if you knew any-fucking-thing about the period, you'd know that revolts and civil wars were far more common back then than they are today.
