Are FALs still relevant/or useable to this day...

robertrtg.com/store/pc/HK91-G3-PTR91-SEMI-AUTO-STEEL-CLIPPED-PINNED-LOWER-PAINTED-FOR-CLONES-40p2131.htm

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You cannot accurize a FAL the way you can a G3 or M14. The tilting bolt lockup the FAL utilizes is fundamentally inaccurate. Just because the FAL fires a full power rifle round does not make it precise.

Are FALs usable? Absolutely. Any gun that you can train soldiers and outfit them with is, in a modern battlefield, usable. Is it ideal? No. Are there much better options? Yes. Is there any reason to use the FAL instead of these options? Unless you're literally getting them and their magazines for free, no.

/thread

>You cannot accurize a FAL the way you can a G3 or M14. The tilting bolt lockup the FAL utilizes is fundamentally inaccurate

[citation needed]
you have the testimony of a million frankengun owners vs fanboys

I would love if you could prove me wrong, user. If you could link something to do just that I would appreciate it. However, I am firmly under the impression that tilting bolt designs are inherently less accurate than, say, the rotating bolt due to the much larger amount of movement the bolt performs as it cycles.

>I would love if you could prove me wrong, user
you're making the claim, and you're not the only person who regurgitates the same shit with no evidence
>muh tilting bolt
is based on some fantastic impression that the lockup is so varied that it actually affects the chambered bullet's trajectory, which without evidence sounds like 100% bullshit or vastly, completely overstated

>trajectory
wow, you know enough to participate in this thread

Man if you're gonna bring citations into this and you have none of your own I'm not gonna pay attention to a word you're saying.

It's common knowledge that tilting bolts are less accurate. This same common knowledge is why the majority of modern autoloading rifles use some kind of rotating bolt to lock. A tilting bolt has far more play along a horizontal or vertical axis than a rotating bolt. This means that a tilting bolt has a less consistent lockup which means it's less accurate.

>It's common knowledge that tilting bolts are less accurate
So bullshit then.
Forums like this are the only places I ever see such knowledge posted.
If you look at modern manufacturing you'll see why rotating bolt is preferred. Ease of manufacture. Try building a cheap tilting bolt from stampings.

>It's common knowledge that tilting bolts are less accurate
to what degree, compared to what?
do you even know what you're saying or are you just parroting some shit you heard?

this is what I'm getting at, you have nothing worthwhile to say

literally no one but ireland uses the FAL in any sort of accuracy platform. Ir's accuracy has always been European conscript tier and that's all it needs to be, but face it the G3 and even the M14 are far more accurate and far more reliably accurate than an FAL.

Dude give it up, the lockup provided by a tilting bolt semi-auto will never be as reliably consistent as a rotating bolt.

>but face it the G3 and even the M14 are far more accurate and far more reliably accurate than an FAL.
they are all pretty fucking average without significant modification

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There's a lot more that goes into determining the accuracy of a firearm than just its chamber and bolt design, but rotating bolts are generally held to be more accurate than tilting bolts because, again, the rotating bolt performs far less movement than a tilting bolt and this leads to a more consistent lockup, which in turn leads to a more accurate rifle. No, I can't find some scientific study. No, I can't find some college thesis on the matter. Nor can I find any more concrete evidence asserting the opposite. Hence why I said I'd be eager to read one if you could bring it forth, but you haven't.

How can you say it's bullshit if you have no source of your own to disprove it?

the FAL is the most average of all of them.

>How can you say it's bullshit if you have no source of your own to disprove it?
because simply posting my own targets and anecdotes wouldn't convince you of anything

> be a tilting bolt
> stressed receiver
> heavier
> more expensive
> no way to adjust headspace
> no way to ensure consistent lockup
> differing pressure from the as it mag empties change poi
> can't slap

> be g3
> adjust headspace for six dollars
> unstressed receiver
> you can free-float the barrel because there isn't any gas system to fuck it up
> positive extraction all the time
> more reliable
> share manual of arms with the most classic subgun of all time
> can slap

Do you mean to assert that you have a FAL or similar tilting bot rifle that is more accurate than a rotating bolt rifle?

Sure, why not?
People think too much about small arms. Their effect on combat is quite marginal.

>no way to adjust headspace

Nigger you're not talking about the FAL are you?

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*obviously, ignoring extremes
As long as it's not extremely unreliable or difficult to use, it's good to go.

A bit less precision, a bit more weight, a bit more recoil, who gives a fuck?
Marginal effect.

there are a lot of shitty rotating bolt rifles out there user, and don't act like you didn't just say you know there's more involved than the lockup

I am. I spoke in ignorance of the subject, but now i'm trying and failing to discover any way to do it.

if a way exists, the info is not well disseminated

Wouldn't call being able to shoot through more cover a marginal effect

... Which is exactly what I was going to get into, yes.

The statement I made was very, very general. I still stand by it.

Rotating bolt designs tend to be more accurate than tilting bolt designs. I'm not saying it's impossible for a tilting bolt to be more accurate than a rotating bolt. However, if you take two rifles and keep all things constant save for the lockup, I believe you'll find the design with the rotating bolt will be- most definitely marginally- more accurate than the tilting bolt. Stand there and say bullshit all you want, unless you can provide some sort of argument or evidence to the contrary then shut the fuck up about it and move on.

if ye cna shoot through, it can't e covre

Fair enough man. FAL's lock onto a sort of meaty ass pin in the receiver called the locking shoulder, which is held in place by a friction fit in the receiver. The size of this shoulder determines headspace. If a FAL is out of headspace you use pin gauges to determine the size you need, and then install a locking shoulder of that size.

FAL's may be the easiest rifle I know of to adjust the headspace. You literally use a shop press to remove a pin and install the other.

>Suggesting the right arm of the free world is outdated

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>Stand there and say bullshit all you want, unless you can provide some sort of argument or evidence to the contrary then shut the fuck up about it and move on.
You've also provided exactly zero evidence to back up your claims.
Put up or shutup.

I think he meant DMR

that's neat.
i'm still giving the point to the G3, but i'm less ignorant now. thanks, user

all this shit aside there must surely be some side-by-side data of ballistics tests between different real fuckin NATO rifles using the same ammunition in the same conditions

Please point out a 1st world or equivalent level country that still issues full power battle rifles. Its heavy as fuck to carry that rifle and all the ammo you would need to follow modern mechanized infantry doctrine.
No one did I'm just fucking tired of the same stupid question being asked all the time. You can like whatever you want to like but stop acting like the world is going back in time to full power calibers that are heavy and over powered for any conflict currently happening.

Nigger just google it yourself and see what you find. The general consensus is that yes, rotating bolts are more accurate than tilting bolts. Can people be wrong about the matter? Oh, of course! Absolutely!

But if you're going to go against the grain and say that everybody else is wrong, fucking back it up with something. I've made arguments as to why rotating bolts are potentially more accurate. You've made shit and dick.

>I've made arguments
You said "well generally it's held that..." and "it's common knowledge"

I don't want to be an asshole but this is retarded, and everyone says the same god damned thing when they say FAL's have shit/worse accuracy compared to other NATO guns. I just wanted somebody to actually show something tangible for once, and you didn't.

Bullpup fags never cease to make me laugh.
Bullpups have shit tier egos, retarded manual of arms, reloading is retarded albeit not hard, they generally weigh more, their triggers almost always suck, even with drop in aftermarkets.
I am not an AR fan by any means but there is no reason any military should switch to bullpups over ARs.

The only benefit to a bullpup is having a 16" barrel in a slightly shorter package.

Their biggest drawback is the difficulty of mounting optics.

see Speaking from a purely intuitive standpoint, and looking at things mechanically, rotating bolts have less wiggle room. They don't tilt or shift or change their orientation beyond rotating. The bolt face remains perpendicular to the barrel and rotates along an axis that is in line with the barrel. Through its entire range of motion, the bolt face is perpendicular to the barrel and it has no need to move from this orientation, nor does it need to move up or down. Theoretically, given extremely tight tolerances and perfect machining, there is no reason for the bolt face to change its alignment to the chamber, and so you have a more consistent lockup.

Now, look at a tilting bolt. The tilting bolt rotates as well, however, it rotates along an axis that is not in line with the barrel. This means that as the bolt cycles, there are periods where the bolt face is not perpendicular with the barrel. In fact, there are periods where the bolt has to *not* be perpendicular with the barrel. On top of this, the bolt is also translating up-down or side-to-side. Given the same standards of machining and design as with the rotating bolt, it's obvious that a tilting bolt design is going to have a much harder time locking in a consistent alignment with the barrel. This is going to absolutely lower your potential for accuracy compared to what a rotating bolt is capable of.

>Bullpups have shit tier ego
Until you start hanging a bunch of shit off the front - then the fat ass helps a lot

>retarded manual of arms
Granted

> reloading is retarded albeit not hard
Speed reloads aren't super-relevant to typical military firefights

>they generally weigh more
Granted

>their triggers almost always suck
Not particularly relevant for an infantry rifle

>The only benefit to a bullpup is having a 16" barrel in a slightly shorter package.
Wrong and shorter weapons are very handy for mounted troops, which is basically everyone

>They don't tilt or shift or change their orientation beyond rotating
That's bullshit though.
Uneven lug loading is one of the known problems with rotating bolts. This can be the result of bolt tilt or cause it depending on design and machining.

>M14
>reliably accurate
>reliable anything

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if you had ever taken apart an SKS, FAL or browning shotgun, you would see for yourself how rattly a tilting bolt design is.

if you were smart, you'd wonder how a gun could rattle like that and still be accurate.
then, if you came to the right conclusion, you would agree with all the good stuff in the thread

>still not a single side-by-side comparison of the REAL FUCKIN NATO rifles posted
Thanks Jow Forums I didn't actually care anyways

they're basically even anyway.
we just wanna yell on the internet because attention feels good

You literally missed all the points as to why the retard was wrong though. People who say you can't speed reload with a bullpup have never used one because as soon as you get some training with them you can easily speed load them. Modern bullpups have fine triggers that are leagues better than the ones most people use to say that all bullpups have shot triggers.

Also the bullpup concept really allows for the further use of something that fires a bigger boolet like the FAL. The FAL's holdback nowadays is that it's large and heavy and if you want a barrel worth a shit, it will be long as well. With a bullpup you can have a gun with a full barrel that has a full sized cartridge. Like all new technologies it takes time to perfect, but newer bullpups are actually really nice and you are a retard if you still consider them shit

Not the other user, been following the thread. I also got interested and tried searching for a comparison but everyone seems to run it off of common sense mechanics by simply comparing the pros and cons of both systems.

thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6401101

Basically the running google search results. Then again I only searched for 5 min.

theres better options.

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They do it to a far smaller degree than tilting bolts user and that's the only point I'm trying to make. Rotating bolts need only to translate and rotate along axes that are in line with the barrel axis. Tilting bolts explicitly need to translate and rotate along axes that are *not* in line with the barrel axis.

>speed reloads
I'm not saying you can't, I'm just saying that going behind your dominant hand isn't as comfortable as going in front of it. However, and extra quarter second of half-second isn't really relevant for an infantry rifle

>Also the bullpup concept really allows for the further use of something that fires a bigger boolet like the FAL. The FAL's holdback nowadays is that it's large and heavy and if you want a barrel worth a shit, it will be long as well. With a bullpup you can have a gun with a full barrel that has a full sized cartridge. Like all new technologies it takes time to perfect, but newer bullpups are actually really nice and you are a retard if you still consider them shit

You're an idiot. The receiver and barrel will have to be about as relatively heavier as they would be anyway, and you'd add some weight for the linkage. You aren't dropping any weight.

Where and how a bolt moves is largely irrelevant.
Consistent lockup is what matters.

How and where a bolt moves are key to consistent lockup user.

Those are cool. I want one.

>if you had ever taken apart an SKS, FAL or browning shotgun, you would see for yourself how rattly a tilting bolt design is.
I have a SA58 and the only thing on it that rattles is the fucking carry handle grip. What pieces of shit do you own that have rattling fucking bolts in their carriers?