Gun debate

Right? If anything a traditional style stock allows for it even more comfortably, or so all my shotgun mag dumps in the desert has taught me.

The only thing ill be checking is my chamber when we get around to correcting the mistake of bringing them over there in the first place.

Actually black prosperity was rising at it's fastest rates from the 40s to the mid 60s. That all ending with the war on poverty and great society programs, and later the war on drugs and three strike laws. Blasck families we starting to do well in America before Democrat policies took over.

The vast majority of shootings in the US occur due to gang activity, and often those guns are obtained by illegal means. A great portion of the mass shootings in the US had perps that were notified by law enforcement such as the FBI and local police, and their failure to act on tips resulted in loss of life. There are more than 393 million civilian-owned firearms in the United States Obviously the issue is not guns, but the people that wield them inappropriately,

> who needs a gun? Nobody needs an assault rifle

Nobody needs a racecar either. Do you want to break the law going over 45? A prius is the only acceptable option.

>the 2a was made for muskets. Its outdated
Are you inplying the entire constitution is outdated? Fine, lets not let women vote either. Hey fuck free speech too, you fuckin cherry picker. Also, at the time of the constitutions writing, we had semi automatic guns. Look up the puckle gun, faggot.

>we need to keep kids safe because muh schools
How about we fix the fucking school system before we blame inanimate objects.

>banning guns will save lives
So then whats stopping me from packing my honda/pickup truck to the brim with pipe bombs and plowing into a crowd/parade? Absolutely nothing, and I would kill alot more people. Infact, thats the next best option that will happen when they ban guns. You wouldnt want that now would you?

>the government will never turn on its own people
Oh right, just like soviet russia never starved 60 million people, or the british tried to fuck their people either. The 2a was specifially made to stop tyranny in government.

>the public can keep non semi auto guns
This is a power imbalance between the government vs the people. If citizens give up their guns, cops should too. It doesnt bend one way and not the other suzy

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·CDC report breakdown of gun deaths, point out that 60% of gun deaths are intentional suicide, only something like 2000 deaths are ruled homicide, with only 200 or so from rifles
·breakdown of the 2nd amendment language, prevent the "well regulated" argument
·point out that most forms of gun control proposed in the U.S. don't actually do anything to prevent criminals obtaining weapons, and would only apply to someone who follows the law.
·point out the sheer prevalence of firearms to shut down the prevention of the flow of arms arguement. It would take something like a century of harsh gun control to make a significant impact on the amount of firearms in the us, assuming the gov't doesnt go full Gestapo and confiscate as fast as possible.
·point out gun deaths/crime usually corresponds with drugs and poverty, and that gun control is merely a stopgap effort to fix a symptom of the root problem of crime. That making laws that only meaningfully effect the people who follow them is a pointless effort that extends the suffering of the poor when effort focused on otger issues could have meaningful effects.

"Everyone who disagrees with me please me to the wall on the far side of the room." while slowly reaching into your book bag.

Anything they throw at you can be explained away through human biodiversity and recognizing that minorities are predisposed to criminal behavior. Your opponent will rely on the assumption that you will not mention this factor. The only question is: do you have the balls?

Aren't guns banned in Chicago yet it has the highest gun related homicides in the country?

ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/table-20

truly the oldest calling card of gungrabbing retards
it's as stupid as the shoulder thing that goes up, but it's repeated like fact

Pic related in case you get into the "hunting with assault weapons" argument.

Also here is Federal law concerning the militia in case they bring that up. Basically if you're a 17-45 year old male and physically able, you ARE the militia and totally separate from the National Guard. law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/246

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·mass shootings are majorly over represented in media, with legally defined shootings accounting for something like 300 deaths in a year. More people die in Chicago every few months due to gang related activity.
·most deaths occur in areas and states with very tight gun control. Mass shooters prefer gun free zones, as they only have to be concerned with police responce, which can be abysmal. Latest example, the Christchurch shooting with a 39 minute response time. Also, personal right to take control of your own safety.
·police are not a reliable source for defense of your person, and have no duty to protect you. The united states police forces are only obligated to uphold the law, not protect your person.
·assault rifle arguments-unironically its a bill of rights not a bill of needs.
·the precident that is set by severely limiting the rights of the people. If the second is allowed to be limited, then why is the first any different? How long until hate control laws are introduced, then become more and more invasive, just like gun control?

Pic related concerning just about every other typical talking point concerning the wording of the Second Amendment.

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Pic related concerning old "assault weapons" the Founding Fathers were both aware of an in some cases issued to expeditions like Luis and Clark. Also a diagram showing an official interpretation of the Second Amendment and what it means.

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If anyone brings up...

>muh muskets

Have a print out of the puckle gun, and other semi-auto guns. And patents for machine guns that existed. And even in the 1600s they were trying to make automatic guns. In the 1500s they were making pseudo-semi auto guns (multi barreled guns and cannons.)

>but muh well regulated militia

The U.S. government gave merchant ships cannons. "Well regulated" back then meant able bodied and not too retarded to fight. So basically anyone between the age of 15-65 who was not too mentally or physically disabled to shoot.

>muh gun crime

There are at least as many defensive uses of firearms as there are homicides. And that's the low end. The CDC (funded by Obama) did a study and admitted that it can be as high as 1,000,000 instances of self defense.

Bring up a scenario where some guy has a knife and since guns are illegal you can't do anything

A man in China actually stabbed/cut twenty or so children at school the same day Sandy Hook happened if I'm not mistaken. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenpeng_Village_Primary_School_stabbing

thedailybeast.com/not-just-sandy-hook-chinas-terrifying-knife-attacks

>muh schools
Bring up proper security measures. Surveillance cameras at the perimeter(helps to catch those that are skipping out on classes as well) to aid in monitoring for any intruders, bonus points if there are cameras in the school to track any shooter(which helps in figuring out the situation), a handful of armed guards, etc etc.

Bring up police response times, preferably with statistics based on distance to the nearest police station(how long on average does it take for the police to arrive from a given distance, etc etc). Then use those statistics to estimate how long it would take for the police to arrive at your school and if you are able to, estimate how far a potential shooter could have gotten if he left before the cops arrived. Make them doubt the police.

That cartoon has always pissed me off the most.

murder is already illegal.
including the state any further only creates more issues, legal discrepancies ect.

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>There are at least as many defensive uses of firearms as there are homicides. And that's the low end. The CDC (funded by Obama) did a study and admitted that it can be as high as 1,000,000 instances of self defense.
I think the numbers were around 500,000 - 3,000,000 cases of self defense per year.

Biggest thing is that gun control empirically doesn't influence homicide. Including mag bans, salt weapon bans, red flag laws, waiting periods, universal background checks, etc etc. Gun ownership also does not increase homicide or crime generally. sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004723521400107X?via=ihub Gun accidents are rare, also swimming pool accidents kill more, especially children, and no one needs a swimming pool. Suicides won't be prevented by "common sense" gun control (mag bans, salt bans, UBCs), and also it's fucked up to restrict everyone's rights over something a small number of people choose to do to themselves. Also mass shootings make up only a tiny fraction of homicides and it is immoral to base policy on those to the exclusion of all other homicide in crime considered in aforementioned statistical analyses. This is pretty much all you need to blow apart any gun control argument, since they have no basis in fact you don't even need to get into arguments about rights, which won't land with half your audience anyway. Good luck.

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First off start with the second amendment, explain why the founding fathers believed in it and explain current examples of tyranny. Look at the statistics for suicides and the percentage of gun violence statistics that it makes up. Then look up handgun violence vs AR15 violence and compare the legislation aimed at each one. REMEMBER ABOVE ALL TO DOWNPLAY SEMI AUTOMATIC RIFLE CRIMES and let it be known that if the government was truly concerned about gun violence they would be after handguns.

I had gun control come up i my philosophy class in school
>black guy who is complete "America was never that great"
>says all school shooters got their guns legally
>point out Columbine, Sandy Hook in that they aquired their guns from others illegally or got em by force
>teacher stops us pretty quick

No one ever brought up mental health once or the problems with law enforcement following up legitimate threats like the leadup to Parkland

Point out we lose fewer people to rifle fire than to bee stings, and that the 'assault weapon' meme is just that.

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As an aside, you can mention that more than half the murders in our nation are black male on black male, but nobody ever talks about *that.*

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the ATF is a regulatory agency not a strict law enforcement agency despite their wording. they regulate the sale of alcohol, tobacco, and firearms.

the logic behind the ATF actions is normally based on the reduction of firearm related incidents (i.e. gun crime).

their "bans" are in two categories.

politically enforced bans
>Clinton ban
>Obama era ban
>bans enforced by legal legislation such as the 1984, 1968, and 1934 gun law enacted by congress.

industrial regulation bans
>bump stocks

the ATF is slowly shifting from enforcing gun bans as a hardliner stance, that is directly inline with political will, to acting more as a regulatory agency.

this is noted by the many fiascos brought on by the ATF and related gun regulation enacted by political will. this is why they restrict bump stocks, but not 3MR. this is why they restrict SBRs and not pistol braces. because they are trying to use their position to create competent shooters even if the political law doesn't allow it.

this isn't to say that, you the freedom loving citizen should trust the ATF only that they are slowly coming around to how ridiculous their agency is and has become. the ATF in its best capacity as a government agency is to regulate fair trade of firearms (and the other stuff), not to prevent the sale and manufacture of fire arms.

example of these fiascos brought on by the ATF

>Ruby ridge ( near Naples, Idaho)
>Waco, TX incident

there is a lot from law enforcement that can be learned, but these are not only tragedies, but were wholly avoidable.

ruby ridge was avoidable because the man involved had the intention to peacefully surrender.

Waco Texas was avoidable and is a case study for negotiation strategies in current policing methods, basically unyielding force is bad for both your image and in achieving a peaceful situation.

That ALWAYS convinces them.

>As an aside, you can mention that more than half the murders in our nation are black male on black male

Yep, that will surely go over well

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The juxtaposition can be useful, yes.

Ask him what his life would be like if the United States didn't exist

really only less than 4k deaths from guns? seems low, but what am I to believe anymore

>debating libtards
>give legit facts/stats
>but muh feelings
>give legit facts/stats that indicate blacks are majority of the problem
>OMG R U SRS THATS RACIST

Traction gained, 0%

he's debating liberals, not humans
they don't have such mental capacity

Just throwing out some potential counterarguments that I've come across when talking it over with anti-gunners. (And no, I'm not anti-gun, I believe that we should repeal the NFA and GCA, and have 50-state reciprocity if not permitless carry):

How do you explain why the US has much higher gun violence and overall violence rates than many other 1st world nations? (Other nations like France and the UK also have dindus and redguards.)

How can anyone reasonably make the case for loosening laws around NFA items like select-fire rifles and suppressors?

I don't feel safe walking around with everyone (especially those with room temperature IQ) legally packing heat!

Owning a gun is inherently extremely dangerous, even more so than owning a car or scuba diving or skydiving!

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Hope these help

thetruthaboutguns.com/2019/03/daniel-zimmerman/the-science-is-settled-research-shows-gun-control-laws-do-not-reduce-violent-crime-or-suicides

news.ku.edu/2018/08/21/gun-owners-are-more-active-political-participation-study-finds

constitution.org/cons/wellregu.htm
law.cornell.edu/wex/second_amendment

reuters.com/article/us-florida-shooting-report/report-into-deadliest-us-high-school-shooting-calls-for-arming-teachers-more-security-idUSKCN1OX0A7

washingtontimes.com/news/2019/jan/3/boulder-colorado-assault-weapons-ban-met-mass-non-/

fbi.gov/file-repository/active-shooter-incidents-us-2016-2017.pdf/view
nbcnews.com/news/us-news/america-s-rifle-why-so-many-people-love-ar-15-n831171

aclu.org/blog/disability-rights/gun-control-laws-should-be-fair

Armed gays don't get bashed.
Armed trannies don't get shocked.
Armed niggers don't get lynched.
Armed muslims don't get spit on.
Armed women don't get raped.

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BLACK PEOPLE

DONT SAY THIS YOU'LL GET BANNED AT UNIVERSITY LOL

THIS.

Your libertarian bullshit holds no water in the real world and you know that. Stop it.

hi phil your gay

So, guns aren't useful for people to defend themselves?

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I always wondered why Michael Moore overlooked this obvious fact when he did bowling for Columbine

You are correct. I was off.

He's liberal to the point that most liberals think he's too liberal. Or he pretends to be.

user you speak the truth

I don't have it to hand, but Australia's crime rate was literally unaffected by their gun ban. Crime has been trending downward across the entire world, and the trend did not shift or accelerate or decelerate in Australia after the ban. There was a short period where it jumped above projections followed by a short period where it fell below projections, and then it stabilized back onto the pre-ban projection, where it has remained ever since.

I have a better idea: say how the government doesn't give a shit about the African American (*snort*) population considering they basically look the other way when a majority of gun crimes happen black on black, many which are young men and teens. But when *white* children are shot by a deranged lone wolf, suddenly the government wants to change laws.

You gotta appeal to the emotions senpai. For all the blunders and bullshit of the NRA, they do understand how important it is to play up the facts of how gun control is historically racist, anti semitic, anti immigrants, homophobic, etc.

Godammit. Is there a word filter on this sub? I literally wrote out F A M. Not that weeb shit.

Yeah, I know, shocking. Thats the numbers for actual homicide. Theres annually around 30,000 deaths attributed to guns. Around 60% of that is suicide, not very much we can do about that. That leaves about 12,000 deaths, and after accidental shootings, justified shootings, police shootings, the actual crimes commited comes out to around 4,000 deaths a year, mostly attributed to gang violence.

Improving the situation of the poorest parts of the country is the answer to the underlying cause for violence, and would help to get rid of the welfare queens. If we can get rid of the gang culture and encourage education and work ethic in the poorest areas like Chicago, California, etc. Thats a viable answer to all excessive violence stats, not just guns. Of course, the groups you would expect to champion this solution are too busy with mass immigration and providing more welfare, digging the hole deeper. Bringing people out of poverty and replacing the gangbanger culture(hatred for authority, disregard for education, distain for legitimate work, Us vs. Them mentality, self segregation) is the best long term solution to crime in the us. Being able to make people Americans again, instead of African American, Latino American, part of the problem is they self segregate from being American.

CDC estimates that a MINIMUM of 50,000 murders (single homicide to mass casualty events) are stopped a year because of concealed carry

>on this sub
it is my deepest wish that you get flayed alive and your pets be run over

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That plethora of pics is shit, why not have all the cartrigdes next to the 5.56, to really drive the point home?

>facts and statistics

You have already failed. Don’t bore your audience with statistics. Don't put them to sleep quoting laws. Appeal to their emotions. You will never break their marxist brainwashing. But you can turn their dogma against themselves. Launch a preemptive strike with the misogynist card.

‘I have a friend. She’s a strong and brave woman, but she’s only 5'2". She was being stalked by a dangerous man. She went to the police. They did nothing. ‘Sorry little lady, you have no proof. Now run along home.’ Really ham up your acting. ‘So she did the only thing she could do. She bought a gun. That was the only way she had a chance to defend herself. According to my opponent here (sneer) she should be considered a criminal. According to the patriarchy, women that try to defend themselves from violent misogynists, should be thrown in prison! That women shouldn't be brave and strong, but must surrender to the rape culture. Is that what you want?!’

That generally doesn’t work in my experience.

You can never convince a full leftist, the indoctrination is unbreakable
you can however convince the fence sitters
realize that in debates, the goal is not to convince the other side, but to convince the audience

1. The U.S has more gangs than other 1st word cunts (mexicans and blacks)
2. Suppressors just lessen the sound of a firearm, and not by that much. Furthermore other countries (like Finland) don't regulate them
3. I don't feel safe knowing only the people with room temperature IQ's have guns (ie. criminals)
4. More people die from cars than guns. bonus guns are not dangerous without ammunition.
Well that was quite easy

Argue like a leftist. The government is racist and only cares about whites (they only care when whites get shot)
Gun control is historically racist and forces minorities to be slaves for whitey (black panther movement)
Guns let honest and weak people defend themselves (roof koreans and the average women)
With gun control only racist bigotet cops can have guns and they only shoot minorities

On 9/11 two planes were stolen by multiple people with box cutters. I think we all know the terrible loss of life and liberty as a result.

Then there's nice, France. A stolen truck. How many died there?

Should we go back to the Oklahoma City bombing?

Should that be the norm? The seren gas attacks on the subways of Japan? The lunatic cop who murdered nearly a hundred people he was supposed to be protecting?

How many more would have died if that retard in Vegas loaded his plane with exlposives instead?

Eventually there will come a biological rampage attack from a deranged lunatic and as long as the United States keeps it's right to bear arms it won't happen here.

We offered to send them back to Africa and form their own shithole country called Liberia, and the stupid monkeys refused. They don't get to cry about reparations just because their retarded ancestors made the wrong choice, just like the Injuns don't get to cry about selling their land for a single bead.

>4. More people die from cars than guns. bonus guns are not dangerous without ammunition.
Medical malpractice is the number 3 killer of American, with only heart disease and cancer killing more. I don't see anyone demanding we ban high-capacity assault doctors.

I don't have any statistics; but I've got a handful of lefty pro-gun talking points

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the full quote from Huey Newton featured here is one of my favourites

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You now what you have to do OP

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The short version of the leftist argument for gun rights is that the 2nd amendment is a distribution to the people of military power. Preventing the govt from having a monopoly on force is necessary to prevent the tyranny that has historically co-opted leftist movements.

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In the same way that democracy distributes political power to 'the people' and socialism (theoretically) distributes economic power to the people, the 2nd amendment is critical for distributing military power to the people. And you need to have all three, or else the imbalanced sphere of power begins to eat the others.

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Doctors get their own special protections under the law, lawsuit awards for medical malpractice are capped extremely low, while general malpractice isn't. That's why most medical malpractice lawyers nitpick around what is "medical" and what is "workplace" malpractice, because if the injury resulted from "normal" malpractice, then the possible award is waaaay higher.

>lock door to class
>pull out assault rifle 16
>"i'm going to murder everyone in this room unless you can find a way to stop me"
>pull out glock n wesson 45 and hand it to audience
>"you can come up with any plan you like in order to stop me from killing you all, but I think you'll find the gun to be the best answer"

then shoot them anyway becuase you loaded theirs with snap caps

Which of those 3 load outs is the best?

Jokes aside, this is probably the best way.

Pass the audience a small bag with some pieces of paper with the names of objects on it, a knife, a pistol, cellphone, some everyday stuff. Then give them this situation.
>There is a shooter at the door to the classroom right there who wants to shoot all of us, in the bag are items that you have with you. What do you do to ensure the survival of everyone in this class?
Let them see through the list of what they have and see what they will choose to defend themselves with.

Probably the AUG and the UZI quality-wise, but I'd take the AK and the MAC10 because I used to always play T in CS

I think the best way to deal with the gun debate is to start with the defensive. Let the opposition lay out their case. Interject only to have them clarify what facts they believe and how they feel those facts should lead to what conclusions.
Many of the arguments favoring gun control stem from ignorance. People don't understand how guns and weapons terminology work. They don't know what a caliber or barrel shroud is. It is easy to let them talk their way into a position you can absolutely destroy once you discredit their knowledge base.
That's where you go on the offensive. Discredit their credibility. Show that their only basis is on how things feel, rather than how they are. Show the statistics, tell the truth. It's on our side. Yes, guns are meant to kill, that's why they're a good thing. They level the playing field between a frail old woman and a 6'2'' 230 pound career criminal. Emotion can work in your favor. People seem to think there is no benefit for civilians to own weapons, until they speak to a roof Korean or a Navajo. Or a single mom with a .38 who had to be on the phone with police telling her they are too busy to help her while her ex reenacted The Shining with a fire axe and her apartment door.

The right balance to strike isn't that you are right and they are assholes. That doesn't convince anyone. Try to make them feel like you're on their side but they are simply mis-informed.

lmao this is great

An armed society is a polite society.

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Gun control laws are actually racist since they were originally put into place by Democrats that were threaten originally by the newly formed black panther (before they turned into a black supremacist group) also when the LA riots happened and the mighty Korean roof snipers took arms and defended themselves and their properties. Which means, gun control only hurts minorities and immigrant communities in the long run since police tend to overlook those areas to begin with.

bam, you just gave liberals something to think about.

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not bad. might be fun.

>before even giving out the bags with notes, put up a large GUN FREE ZONE sign at the front of the class. When the shooter scenario begins and the class starts trying to find any pistols or other guns, point out how that sign did absolutely nothing to deter the shooting.

also, be sure to reinforce the fact that everyone with useless items are just straight fucked. >"Security wont arrive in less then 5 mins and is not even armed. The Police wont arrive in about 12 mins. what do you do RIGHT NOW?"

@40970614

(you)'re a little authoritarian for my board, trip faggot.

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'Violence is Golden,' my favorite short essay on the subject.
Find it, read it.

Spouting facts like an autist will get you nowhere. You need empathy.

Try to understand the other side, to think like they do so you know why they think this way. You have to accept that they are people like you, go further than the "hurr leftists are brainwashed drones" shit, hell most people don't even hold strong enough opinions on anything to really be considered right or left. Many people also hold a mix of right and left wings opinions, because the way those ideas were bundled together under right or left is quite arbitrary in the first place.

At the same time, you also need to understand your own biases. Accept that you aren't only about facts, logic and statistics, that you have feelings too, so you can really explain the other side why you think like you do and in turn make them empathize with you.

If you only looked at the statistics in a completely detached way this wouldn't be as important to you, because in the end most people never have to use their guns defensively. Just like you don't really care about that fire extinguisher because you know you'll probably never have to se it. There is more to it and it's OK to admit it.

Admit that the idea of heavily guarded politicians telling you that you should let yourself get killed by an intruder rather than having a gun is driving you nuts, and rightfully so. That the State expecting you to trust it but not trusting you in return is maddening. That being considered guilty until proven otherwise because you own a gun is rising your blood pressure.

Debating is not about destroying their arguments, you can do it all day and it won't change the way they think. It's actually the opposite, you'll look like a dick and they'll lock up even further.
But if you seek mutual understanding, they'll be caught off guards and maybe you can plant some seeds that will end up growing.

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>checked
Based and satanpilled

this. Whenever I debate, I usually always try to see their perspective. Mass shootings are a problem, and something the left and right both want to fix. but the fixes the left have been proposing are completely out of touch with reality. The left's viewpoint is hardly a fix, but bandaid to a gaping hole created by something far deeper than "guns" this bandaid will be a precursor to even more tragedies if implemented

This too, finding common grounds to start from is important. And there are more than you would think.

stupid dumb tripfagging scum
you can't just go full 1488 and expect people to take you seriously

Once again Jow Forums reveals itself to essentially to be tranny porn addicted boomer-cons who think that everybody can just switch ideologies and belief systems by mere osmosis or good talks.

Facts:

>Most people will just go "oh, you're right" after a good sit down and vote Democrat again or not at all
>Most people who are easily swayed by a few discussions will be swayed by somebody else who disagrees with us on guns in the future and just change their mind again
>Weak willed people who are easily swayed aren't worth having on our side politically because they are only on our side for fragile reasons and will flake at any moment
>Most non-whites see whites possessing guns as an affront to their very safety and will oppose our ownership of weapons on this principle alone
>As America darkens so will restrictions on firearms increase
>Racism and guns are tied together by our opposition, an easier sell as America browns.
>White Americans need to stop pandering to our opposition - they want you dead and are actively working towards it, the only decisions and bargains we can make are how fast we want to die and lose our rights
>Guns are use it or lose it right now. You can't disown these freedom fighters and terrorists and expect any change for the positive on gun rights. Even if they didn't act your rights would still whither away. Do something, support it, or get the fuck out of the way.