.40 S&W is better than 9mm

>.40 S&W is better than 9mm
There is literally zero statistical evidence of this.

People hate .40 because it has near identical terminal performance to 9mm while losing capacity and having snappier recoil. It's a pointless caliber. If you want something bigger than 9mm move up to 10mm or 357mag. 40 serves no purpose which is why the FBI and almost every police agency in America dropped it.

Attached: failure to stop and succesful stop rates for handgun calibers.png (1416x1593, 2.19M)

bad thread OP

>what is barrier penetration
>what is soft armor
>what is fat people
9mm having good terminal performance is nice, but that wasn't why the FBI switched to 10mm and later .40 S&W in the first place.
.40 is fine, and so is 9mm, they simply have different strengths and weaknesses.

Why do people need to make threads to justify their purchases?
If you already know it's the bee's knees, why are you constantly comparing it/yourself to others?
Seems to me like you've got 1 or 2 deep-rooted complexes up your ass.

your graphic doesn't convince me because it says regardless of # of hits
>shoot a guy 6 times with .380 ACP
>shoot a guy once with a .357
clearly it's just as effective as a .380 amirite?

40s&w IS better than 9mm. It's a bigger, heavier, and higher pressure cartridge. What it really comes down to, is 9mm guys who can't handle the recoil of the .40, so they will say that 9mm is just as good as .40, and they'll cite the FBI... You know... The guys who went from 38 to 9mm to 10mm to 40 back to 9mm as reference for their "superiority".

Personally I carry 9mm because I prefer 9mm in subcompact firearms. But if I was a cop and I was carrying a full size handgun, I might carry a .40 or 10mm since I might have to shoot through cars, auto-glass, or other types of cover.

Attached: 1551692991540.jpg (518x1024, 91K)

>snappier recoil
>identical performance

Anti 40 people must be anti physics as well

40 is, by the numbers, better than 9. I guess the argument is that life doesn't happen in a vacuum and most any pistol caliber incapacitates by hole poking not energy. So they'd rather have more hole pokers to account for those unknown variables. Comparing a single shot of each though, all else being equal as a thought experiment, there are situations a .40 would work and a 9 wouldn't. So idk carry whatever makes you feel safe and don't talk out of your ass

t. owner of a .40 and 9mm, lover of both

Haven't you heard? 9mm is just as good as .45acp due to innovations in bullet technology... But for some magical reason, these innovations cannot and have not been transferred over to other calibers lol

Those liberty civil full-coppers are sweeeeet, hello iiia penetration with an effectively fragmenting hollowpoint

COPE

I've always been shown and told they were comparable and that .40 platforms were what really threw the competition to 9mm. You got some sauce for me?

Jow Forums is unironically 90% mall ninjas, weaklings and nogunz. Most have never shot anything let alone a living thing. And most derive their knowledge of firearms from videogames.

There's +P 40

1cm babbies can’t handle .44 Magnum

>why do people always say its a "meme round" or other bs?
.40 was literally invented because poorly designed 9mm JHPs couldn't be counted on to penetrate to an adequate depth reliably. Now there are many 9mm loadings that penetrate reliably.
>muh expansion
.1" here or there doesn't matter at all, as shown by literally every study on shootings, and if it did we'd all be carrying .45 GAP or .50 GI instead of .40.
>muh EXTRA penetration
9mm has enough for just about any realistic use. If you do need crazy amounts of penetration then you want .357 sig or 10mm, not .40.

There isn't really anything wrong with .40, it just doesn't make any sense to choose over other calibers. You're pretty much saying "i think i need more performance than 9mm offers but im also a terminally poor motherfucker so instead of using a caliber that actually works noticeably better imma pick .40"

That's one of the most braindead arguments out there. Apply yourself.

My full size .40 carries 17(16+1), how is that not enough?

.40 S+W was literally created to deal with the recoil of a 10mm you double nigger!

How much advantage am I really going to get with .40? 9mm standard pressure 124gr HSTs consistently reach 1/2 inch expansion, with 15" penetration in gel in this independent testing: youtu.be/-lGqdMdbir0. I'm convinced I can get the job done using that in a self-defense scenario, especially considering the capacity of double stack semiautos these days. I've heard .40 has marginally better hard barrier performance, but that really isn't something I'm concerned with for concealed carry self defense. As an average joe, am I really going to get into a shootout where I need to put an assailant down behind cover, and will .40 make enough a difference to save my life? I doubt it. And to be fair, I doubt the 2 extra rounds in my Glock 19 is going to make a difference than if I were using a G23. The recoil is a total non-issue if you actually know how to grip a pistol. To me, the difference is only range ammo price. If you want to spend a couple extra bucks for a box of .40 each time you go to the range because it might shoot through a windshield better, that's cool; I just think 9mm does enough for me when we're talking about hits on target.

Attached: Screenshot_20190326-185715_YouTube.jpg (2960x1440, 762K)

Yeah, it was in for a bit as a fad, local shop is literally filled with .40S&W glocks they can't sell now.

you're right, but you're not a cop who may have to respond as the those officers did to a bank heist against prepared criminals who had crude body armor and superior firepower.
generally, as a civilian, I'd be far more worried about over penetration and excessive range than stopping power. if a stray bullet goes through a wall and kills a baby, you might as well be dead.
that's why I unironically carry .32 H&R magnum in a .327 LCR in a pocket everywhere I can, because it's just enough power to meet the minimums I'm comfortable with, but low power enough not to ruin the rest of my life (plus very easy to handle and shoot with a single hand or even only my weak hand)
short of a .44 magnum, no handgun is a guaranteed one-shot stopper, so you might as well pick something that can help improve shot placement, not hurt your chances.
hell the Five Seven is probably the most useful civilian handgun:
>fragmentation through most hard surfaces and significant loss of velocity
>higher capacity than even 9mm
>lower recoil so when you mag dump under stress you hit chance remains high
>super reliable and simple action that is very easy to maintain
>can varmint and hunt with it
>can be moved into a camp gun role if SHTF
government simply uses 9mm for logistics and cost, not anything to do with it being the best or most practical.

>if a stray bullet goes through a wall and kills a baby, you might as well be dead.
Get the Planned Parenthood endorsement for your pistol carry permit, they'll cover you.

lol this gave me a chuckle, ut it's a legitimate concern.
I see black kids getting killed by stray bullets in drive-byes and shootouts all the time in the police reports, and the places I'd need my gun the most statistically are these areas. unlike the gangbangers, I don't have a hidden fortified safe-house to retreat to, so I'd rather not take my chances.

Yeah I dunno, I'd be more concerned with reducing the n value (probability you *need* to use your gun defensively) by staying away from n neighborhoods, than the (probability of n) / (probability of post-birth accidental abortion of cooing bundle of joy).

desu, if I didn't have to go through those areas, I wouldn't have much of any reason to carry anyways.
if I were a cop, I wouldn't have any problem with carrying a .40 or a 9mm, and based on the amount of road incidents you have to respond to as a cop, I think I'd personally prefer some hot XTP .40 over 9mm. auto glass is a bitch, you know?

What, are you a food stamp delivery man? Why do you have to go through the ghetto on a regular basis?

I dunno man, if I had to go on regular safaris through places where gangs actively operate, and I didn't want to get murdered because I happened to be wearing the wrong color hat that day, I'd probably be packing .45 Arbys Customer Penetrator at the very least to have penetrating capability against vehicles. If you are going to go into the ghetto, why carry some hipster gentlemen round meant for arthritic grandmas, get a semi auto with big fucking bullets and put the threat down.

I'm looking at ballistic charts and 9mm is still edging out all commercially available loads in terms of KE by virtue of low mass high velocity projectiles, but I feel confident that duty rounds like 165gr HSTs are delivering a fairly heavy projectile, with enough velocity to sit close to 500ft-lbs (470 on the box). For duty ammo, .40 seems pretty stout, guess I just figured with the extra case capacity it could produce more KE, which is doesn't as an absolute, but does with more reasonable projectile weights (although I'm sure the trendy argument is that it doesn't matter because even at 370ft-lbs 9mm is good enough).

blame corporations for building their headquarters in the middle of warzone cities instead of the middle of iowa.
if I could telecommute, I would 100%, but until then those are the breaks if I don't want to be living like a poor person the rest of my life and I want a family, and something to leave them with.

corporate policy is no guns or you're fired (which is literally suicide for employees who have to commute in manners that exec don't lol), so it has to be something I can pass off as something else.
life in modern urban america is fucking hell.

Noble user, I wish you the best. Just keep a shotgun in your car so you don't end up having to use a peashooter against a mexican jumping car.

hot .357 sig is the patrician choice if hard barrier penetration is really your concern as far as duty calibers go.
youtube.com/watch?v=j2lwNjafHS8

>I see black kids getting killed by stray bullets in drive-byes and shootouts all the time in the police reports
Because they're mag dumping FMJ into houses, bus stops, convenience stores, cars, often with multiple shooters, it isn't so much a case that defensive shooters should download projectiles as it is a case for aiming and not emptying a mag of cheap range ammo into someone's house.

Probably. I'd go for a 5.56 pistol with an Americans with a folding Disabilities Act bracer myself if we're talking vehicle guns.

midwayusa.com/product/1001518913/buffalo-bore-ammunition-40-s-and-w-p-155-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-20

buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=115

That's my .40S&W carry ammo.

If we're talking vehicle ""handguns"" something like a braced draco loaded with bonded expanding rounds makes the most sense IMO. I only brought up .357 sig because this conversation seems to be aimed at actual handguns, like those that fit in an under seat safe and can be concealed comfortably if you need to stop at the gas station.

That is not the reason why LEOs went back to 9mm

Not him, but pretty sure it was sarcasm

>Glock 19 can handle higher energy loadings than a USP 40
That's wrong though.

Yeah you're a little bit late user pointed me to some hotter .40, thanks though

>If you want something bigger than 9mm move up to 10mm or 357mag.
Except 10mm and 357mag also have virtually the same terminal effects as 9mm insofar as those that are relevant to wounding. Caliber wars are over, 9mm won.
t. 40 owner

>inb4 muh energy
The extra energy from 357 mag or 10 mm
hollowpoints just gets dissipated, the temporary cavitation is greater but isn't enough to actually damage the tissue so it's irrelevant.

>fat people
Human Fat and even muscle have very minimal effects on bullets you will never have a case where 40 will go through a man but 9mm won't due to fat alone. 9mm already has zero issue going through people and reaching the FBI minimum 12in or more in super common defensive rounds like HST.

>Soft Armor
Neither .40 nor 9mm will defeat soft armor without specific AP ammo.

>what is barrier penetration
The increased diameter of .40 with the poor increase in power results in equal if not worse barrier penetration in almost all cases
youtube.com/watch?v=j2lwNjafHS8

youtube.com/watch?v=Fe3OiKsZqiA

Well you could actually look up the study, the source is at the very bottom of the image. It shows one shot stop rates and failure to stop rates. That would be a better idea instead of typing out dumb shit. Here is the spoonfeed:

youtube.com/watch?v=nycYxb-zNwc

357 out of a snub and 9mm out of snub revolver have remarkably similar performance and muzzle energy yet 357 has much worse recoil. Try taking a high school physics class to find out why.

youtube.com/watch?v=1YTOV4dYLQE

These .40 threads are full of the worst cope imaginable.

>one extra panel of thin aluminum sheet metal
.357 SIG is a meme.
might as well just run +p+ 9mm, and car bodies are more than just a thin outer metal panel. you need mass and inertia to carry through enough force to maintain sufficient terminal performance. .357 SIG does not have enough, and .45 does not have enough penetration.
.proper penetration-minded .40 S&W is currently the best choice for a duty sidearm for highway patrol or mobile officers who have to respond to vehicle incidents.
>obigatory CHP S&W 4006 TSW shilling
summitgunbroker.com/4006-tsw-chp.html

stop quoting ellifritz
his study is literally garbage that claims .22 LR is more lethal than 9mm using sample sizes of a few hundred incidents at best and a couple dozen at worst.
he even suggests in his own article that larger calibers are still likely to be more effective, despite his data.
he's an idiot and you are too for listening to him.

Now I know you arnt shit-talkin .40
>not using .40s&w to train with so other calibers are super easy to handle

Attached: FuckYouIEnjoyTrainingWith.40.jpg (1080x1350, 1.03M)

>people arguing about pistol calibers when they're all basically the same shit when it comes to actual performance

haha

>LUL .22 is just as good as 10mm for hiking through the Alaskan wilder-lands
I hope you get mauled by a bear faggot

>one extra panel
.40 made it through just one panel. .357 made it through 3 and hit the 4th with enough force to likely cause serious injury. This is with range ammo too, which is typically loaded very light for .357 sig and close to typical defensive loadings for .40. The gulf in performance between typical .40 S&W carry loads and hot .357 sig would almost certainly be even greater.
>thin
did we watch the same video? that stuff looked well over an eighth of an inch. .40 and .45, which have zero issue passing through a typical car door unless they hit something particularly solid like a window motor, were stopped cold by the second sheet. For reference most shot lines on a modern car door are going to pass through 2-3 sheets of 20g sheet metal, so the aluminum in question is clearly quite a formidable barrier in comparison.
>.40 S&W is currently the best choice for a duty sidearm for highway patrol or mobile officers
Yes, because it's what they're issued, and the only alternative is typically 9mm. For the armed citizen things are completely different.

>Except 10mm and 357mag also have virtually the same terminal effects as 9mm insofar as those that are relevant to wounding

Handgun calibers are relatively similar? Well, no shit Sherlock. However the jump between 10mm and 9mm is far larger than 9mm to .40. There is a reason 10mm is popular for a woods gun but less popular for urban carry. Definitely would not call 10mm and 9mm virtually the same when it comes to terminal effects but yes these smaller handgun calibers are comparable in many ways.

The permanent cavity is significantly larger, average bullet mass is significantly larger, penetration is significantly larger, expansion is significantly larger. Yes they are still handgun calibers but you are dealing with 800+ftlbs for hot 10mm. Compared to .40 which generally maxes out right under 600ftlbs and 9mm which generally maxes out around 500ftlbs.

Attached: 9mm, 40 and 10mm.png (513x570, 434K)

No it doesn't. Try looking at failure to stop rates, where 22 is over 34% and 9mm is 13%. You can't only look at one section of the data.

>.22lr
>pistol caliber

its called long rifle for a reason :^)

I thought you were talking about the capabilities of the gun itself, not off the shelf ammunition. My bad

As long as it's .22 Long, you're good to go.

Attached: Bella Twin.jpg (600x755, 116K)

You can get some pretty hot 9mm that will compete with 40 without losing space.

If people wanted the “best” round, they would carry 5.7x28 or 44/460. Practically matters a lot, and so does recoil.

>lower mag capacity
>higher recoil
>higher ammo cost
>statistically proven to offer zero advantage in defensive shootings

Yeah, why would you not choose 40S&W?

It's all good, I was wrong either way, but I've seen the 10mm USP conversion so definitely wouldn't argue that it's less robust than a G19, just not many off the shelf loadings taking advantage of the design

Why the fuck isn't .40 more popular for suppressing. Easy common ammo that is full power and always subsonic. Lots of folks by a too-large can for the versatility anyway. Fuck it I'm getting a barrel for my .40.

pistol calibers are fairly irrelevant in overall difference.

>always subsonic
What? Most .40 loadings are either supersonic or transonic. That's why .45ACP is popular for suppressing.

>there are people in this thread RIGHT NOW who don't carry 240gr XTPs that fly at 1900 FPS for maximum penetration, cavitation, and fragmentation

It's like you faggots WANT less effective ammo.

Attached: 923495.jpg (880x660, 70K)

>Muh recoil 4 muh women agents
That's the actual reason the FBI took .40 over 10mm originally, you absolute mong.

Fucking wrong. Standard 180 grain loadings are not supersonic.

You are fucking retarded

What do you believe the speed of sound is, and what is your definition of something being transonic.

But 180gr .40 is trash for anything but subsonicness.
The only rational reason to prefer heavy-for-caliber bullets is to maximize momentum, and 165gr is peak momentum for factory .40 loads.

Did someone trick you into moving to Milwaukee?

>transonic
It was born Knuckles

Why? Women police officers need to qual too

> trash
388 foot pounds in Speer Lawman .40 180 and that's not even a hot load, well below speed of sound. And it is more powerful than .45. As opposed to 317 foot pounds for subsonic 9mm.

So subsonic common 180 grain .40 rounds are trash compared to 9mm because it is more powerful but less powerful than .40 grain 165's?

>can they not handle the recoil?
No. 9mm is easy as hell to shoot and cheap with target ammo so they have 15 arguments for why 9mm is better than everything else. Then they load their pistols with +P+ boutique rounds to make sure the jhp's function correctly and get the same recoil snap and price as the .40. But they get an extra round or two of course. Then they say "40 too snappy, get a 10mm because 40 is for manlets." and the circle of faggotry continues.

But you know what you don't hear from .40 shooters every time someone pulls out a 9mm at the range? "LOL why don't you shoot 40, 9mm is a pointless round." 9mm fags need to stop being so fucking annoying and stop caring what other people carry.

>foot pounds
>foot pounds
>And it is more powerful than .45.
In KE terms, and ignoring 185gr and lighter .45 ACP? Sure.

Look, if someone cares about energy, they're going to go light-for-caliber -- that's always where the foot-pounds are. If they're looking at heavy-for-caliber bullets in the first place, they must be looking for maximum momentum. (Or they just have no idea what they want, I guess, but in that case there's no meaningful discussion to be had.)
So I don't understand why you're evaluating things in terms of kinetic energy instead of momentum/PF.

Anyway, if you actually look at momentum, you do still get the same ordering: 9mm is 120-150 PF, 180gr .40 is about 170, and 165gr .40 is about 180.
(And 230gr .45 is about 190.)

>trash because it's more powerful but less powerful than .40 grain 165's?
Yes, exactly.
You've already made a judgement on the value of better terminal ballistics vs. a couple more rounds, and terminal effect won.
So after making the choice to sacrifice other attributes for it, why would you turn around and choose the loading with worse ballistics? There's no upside, no tradeoff with intermediate capacity and intermediate ballistics, it's just plain worse.

>compared to 9mm
I never mentioned 9mm, but (subsonicness aside) it is trash compared to everything, because there's no set of preferences or values (again, other than subsonicness) that would make 180gr .40 an optimal choice.

The other options all have some set of preferences that could lead you to rationally select them:
If you value capacity more: 9mm
If you value terminal effect more, and believe it's principally related to velocity/energy: 135gr or lighter .40 (or .357sig)
If you value terminal effect more, and believe it's principally related to momentum: 165gr .40 (or 230gr .45)

The one and only reason you'd ever pick 180gr .40 is because you need a subsonic round, which I acknowledged by saying
>trash for anything but subsonicness

>what is barrier penetration
Pretty much the same for both, there are examples of .40 having inferior penetration even.

youtube.com/watch?v=mUxE9vNgt8E
youtube.com/watch?v=j2lwNjafHS8&feature=youtu.be

>what is soft armor
Both won't do shit against armor.

>what is fat people
Fat is not nearly dense enough to stop bullets or negatively affect the expansion of JHPs to any degree regardless of caliber.

Our thread of replies is speicifcally regarding .40 being a better platform for suppression, is it not?

Also... I have never heard anyone give a shit about momentum in firearm loads... Versus KE. Why do you bring that up? I can't see it as meaningful versus k.e. I can find examples of things with the same momentum being vastically different in terms of death (meatball versus truck) but KE seems a better predictor.

Generally, the criminal would be charged with the murder of a bystander if they were killed as a result of the commission of the crime, even if the bullet came from someone shooting at the criminal.

>.22 is just as good as 10mm

Just as shit you mean. And yeah pretty much.

>entire discussion about unarmored human
wounding performance
>lol but bears
Talk about moving the goalposts.
Yes, 10mm is better for bears, but there is a certain amount of recoil that cannot be compensated for due to human reaction time
Also 10mm tends to overpenetrate like fuck against human targets, so a lot of that extra energy is wasted.
Basically they are 2 different tools for 2 different jobs.
Someone brings this up every shitty caliber debate thread, but nobody seems to remember.

>But you know what you don't hear from .40 shooters every time someone pulls out a 9mm at the range? "LOL why don't you shoot 40, 9mm is a pointless round."

That's literally exactly what you faggots were saying in the early 2000's when .40 was relevant. "Da wave of the future! 10mm power in a 9mm size gun!" Now that there's reliable data on its performance easily available, the fad has mostly died out and former .40 proponents either moved on or shut up.

>Our thread of replies is speicifcally regarding .40 being a better platform for suppression, is it not?
I only jumped in when said 's claim about "most .40 loadings" was "fucking wrong" on the basis that 180gr loads are subsonic.
My point is that not only is 180gr not "most loadings" in a literal sense (which should be obvious), but it's also neither a typical nor a good loading for any purpose but suppression, no matter which theory of terminal ballistics one adheres to.
One might as well say .223 is "always subsonic" because you can buy subsonic loads in that.

Since claims "always subsonic" in support of .40 as a platform for suppression, arguing that claim seems pretty on-point to me.

>never heard anyone give a shit about momentum in firearm loads... Versus KE.
Then you haven't been paying attention. Which of those parameters is most relevant to handgun terminal ballistics is probably the single biggest fundamental issue in the multiway disagreement that we call The Caliber Wars, which has been raging for decades and I'm not interested in engaging in right now.

>Why do you bring that up?
To look at 180gr from the perspective most favorable to it (it looks even worse from a KE standpoint) and demonstrate how it's still not something you would ever pick except for suppression, and thus is in the same class as subsonic .223.

OP here
why is this thread still alive you people are animals

Attached: 1551246968341s.jpg (125x90, 2K)

And that's the same reason why they switched, you fucking autist.

40 cal came about because the FBI couldn't handle the 10mm. True story.

You could try not being a pussy. My first pistol is a Shield and white box 9mm out of it is anything but snappy.

If you're shooting a full size, you don't have any goddamn excuse unless your shit is hot. And 40 was invented because they wanted 1cm that wasn't hot.

no it isn't it has lower capacity and similar energy. if you're going to sacrifice capacity you need to make up for it in something else like power or range.

yeah 10mm is better than 9 but .40 isn't.

>> what is barrier penetration
> Pretty much the same for both
So, I'm a die hard capacity dude, but this is from another thread where anons starting linking Federal's gel tests for their law enforcement sales. Keep in mind, that may mean it's complete bullshit, but their .40 S&W 185gr was the only bullet for which gel performance stayed right at bare gel and denim performance after passing through really hard barriers.

If I was having to shoot through cars a lot with HSTs, I'd probably be using .40 S&W if I could.

Attached: federal-le-gel-data.jpg (1778x857, 218K)

Why not both?
>.357 sig, making .40 short & weak into velocity atrocity.

greetings Jow Forums
an elderly man just had the shit beaten out of him by a communist terrorist in San Francisco

if anyone wants to help ID the assailant, all help would be welcome:

Attached: R.jpg (985x849, 271K)

If you're having to shoot through cars a lot, you should probably start hanging on to a shotgun or a rifle.

Always a good idea, but sometimes it doesn't always work out that way. Especially for staties apparently.