CAN WE PLEASE TALK ABOUT THE 6.5CBJ?

Will boz drop into other 9mm firearms?

>5.7 have good terminal performance

Fucking what? Maybe if you consider.22wmr good performance.

Give me a quick run down? Help me take the BOZpill.

Out of rifles, yeah it does. Especially compared to a 33 gr tungsten icepick.

If it doesn't offer improved capacity, there's no real reason for a civilian to care about it.

it's rarely used though

There's reason for american civilians to care about it or if a yuropoor thought he might be targeted by someone wearing plates and they lived in a country with legal self defense

Now do that test with the tungsten cored 7.62 NATO.

It's still shrug/10 at best.

I do wonder how 4.6 or another microround hasn't taken off, yet, though.

worse than 5.56

The one on the left looks like a stylus haha

Attached: pebis.png (1024x576, 436K)

>this is what ARfags actually believe

American civilians will never have access to any load that will penetrate a rifle plate. Due to COAL restrictions even if you somehow magicked up a bunch of pulldown M995 bullets, you couldn't load them in the cartridge in anything other than single-feed, and they'd perform worse than laoding them in a 5.56 rifle because you'd lose so much fucking case capacity your velocity would be in the shitter. The best you could do is get some of those meme all-copper bullets loaded in the edgy 5.7x28 meme ammo and maybe be able to punch some fly-by-night company's AR500 "level 3" plates that don't have an actual NIJ cert, but at that point just shoot some fucking PMC Starfire/American Eagle/Armscor/Wolf Gold/Winchester/Hornady Black M193 5.56 that'll also penetrate it. And have something resembling terminal performance once it does, instead of icepicking.

Hell, even the tungsten core 6.5 load won't penetrate SAPI/ESAPI plates, even from a 12" barrel, point blank.

>lighter, worse BC bullet going slower than any 5.56 NATO load
>"matches the trajectory"
No. It can't, it doesn't work that way.

Why the fuck would we talk about a round that nobody here has seen, shot, or will ever hear of again? Great job wasting thread space.

Cost, single-source ammo availability, and generally being long enough to make pistol grips uncomfy. .22 TCM has come the closest to mainstream adoption, but only because the 9R variant is drop-in compatible with any 9x19 gun and it's cheaper to shoot than any of the others. Hell it's cheaper than .45acp.

I get that, currently. Just seems like having a 20+ round flush mag is worth it to enough gear queers, but maybe it's just me.

I dream of a rifle/pistol combo shooting the same microround (probably in different loads, but still) with compatible mags that's man-accurate to 300m.

It's actually true though. Velocity is the biggest component of penetration, and 5.56 is significantly faster than 7.62 NATO. Especially when comparing M995 to M993.
>52gr bullet @ 3350fps from 20" barrel vs 126.6gr bullet @ 2890fps from 24" barrel

>uhhhh every AP round the US Army
Not for much longer, and damn sure not once a war in East Asia kicks off. It will be prioritized for larger munitions, which means no more small arms tungsten bullets.

This is why all the new shit the DoD is pushing for armor piercing has to have stupidly fast velocities, to pierce armor without tungsten.

>M995
>not meeting COAL in a 5.56
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

22 tcm is far better than 5.7

Turns out 5.7 actually does pretty good because tumbling longbois.
Not as good as pistol-caliber Lehigh XD, but as good or better than JHPs.

img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/b2161a32-695e-4a4e-baa2-209a9a981c67/downloads/1ch74uc6j_636298.pdf

Attached: Screenshot 2019-03-26 at 22.35.39.png (2189x1279, 747K)

Yeah I feel you there. I've actually looked into getting a CZ Scorpion barrel done up for .22 TCM 9R, since it would work with the factory mags. Shouldn't be too difficult since the breech block/trunnion thing is available separately so I'd just need to get a barrel threaded for it and get the headspace set, instead of having to mill up my own block or press in a barrel or have to put up with any of the other methods of installing a barrel.

What I'd really like to do is convert some 10mm PCC to it (it also works reliably from 10mm and .40 mags without tweaking feed lips) so I have the extra action and mag length to use the regular load instead of the 9R for a little better penetration and ballistic coefficient. However, right now pretty much my only options would be a Vector or a PCC AR, because fuck doing it to one of the $3k+ semicustom MP5/10s.

God dammit. I got sidetracked and was trying to talk about .224 Boz and .22TCM as well, and forgot to actually fucking name them. Sorry.

Yes, ideally you'd get some M995 5.56 and skip the "PDW" rounds.

I'm ultimately the type of guy that wants standard everything, cartridge-wise, but I recognize the potential benefits.

Someday, user. Someday.

>Turns out 5.7 actually does pretty good
With one caveat. Check phase 2. Of the common commercial FN loadings, only SS197SR met FBI pen standards through denim.

SS195LF 28 gr 8.9"
SS197SR 40 gr 14"
SS198LF 28gr 10"

The Barnes shit looks baller though. Shame it's only offered in one pistol and fucking Mac10 clone, along with being so fucking expensive I can't train with the shit.

IF you're talking about steel penetration and not heavy or thick barriers, IF you're talking about light 5.56 projectiles (whereas the modern trend is heavier), IF you're talking about full length 5.56 barrels rather than carbines, IF you're talking about basic FMJs and not rounds designed at all for AP (velocity is most important when forcing soft metal through hard metal due to "splashing" disintegration), then sure.

From any given barrel length, M995 will outperform M993. Doesn't matter if it's 7" or 27", it always has both a velocity and a sectional density advantage.

Also, if you chilled your autism down a degree or two and/or bothered to actually follow the reply chain, you'd realize the discussion is only and solely about armorplate steel. Since the whole thing started with the picture of armorplate steel that the tungsten cored 6.5CBJ penetrated while "unspecified" (AKA, ball) 5.56 and 7.62 NATO just cratered.

>Great job wasting thread space.
newfag detected

Why the fuck would we talk about weapons when we could cover a myriad of other topics?

Honestly, AP 5.56 makes more sense. There's no need to have a different gun or cartridge.

Oh, OK.

Tungsten is expensive though also how accurate is it?

The ap restrictions are fucking bullshit, unconstitional as fuck and were implemented to also ban imports of cheap foreign steel core ammo. Republicans passed it too.
Yeah but anything else really doesn’t work to penetrate ceramics. Also, why doesn’t the us mine it’s own tungsten. There’s nothing special about China geologically for tungsten. Same for other nations not mining it.

And to be heavier as well. If your projectile is too light it may cross a threshold where its too structurally weak to hold itself together on impact with a piece of armor. There's a reason why .30-06 is held to a higher standard of one-hit penetration over 5.56 when testing and classifying armor.

Both will result in higher recoil but what can you do? So as long as it remains below a full power round, maybe somewhere in between where current small caliber intermediates are and where 7.62 Real NATO is would still be fine.

>LOOK MOMMY I POSTED IT AGAIN
Fuck off already retard, nobody wants to hear about your shitty cartridge that flopped for very good and obvious reasons. In this case the reasons are lack of terminal effect (no, temporary stretch cavities aren't great at killing shit) and high cost. Oh and sabots will never be a good solution, too expensive and you can't have tracers. With hippies crying about lead ammo imagine the protests from shooting millions of sabots everywhere.

Isn't it fuck all expensive though ?
Tungsten objects look like a bitch to manufacture, how would that design fare with steel instead ?

What is the armor penetration if you take that same tungsten sabot and load it into other cartridges? Tokarev? .223? I suspect the magical performance is 99% sabot, 1% cartridge.

You’re forgetting the fact you can carry almost double the ammo for the same weight. Yea it’d suck somewhere like Afghanistan but something like street fighting in hue it’d be great.

>Yeah but anything else really doesn’t work to penetrate ceramics.
Speed does. That's why they're chasing 100k psi pressure .270 rounds (that probably won't work out). If that doesn't fly, something like a .300 Win Mag APFDS in a GPMG may be the next step.

> Why don't we mine tungsten
I'm not aware of any deposits domestically.

What does tungsten offer over steel to make it a better penetrator?

Higher density and much better tensile strength.

While this user has a point, I really want to see this concept picked up in a steel core or even non-saboted copper jacketed bullet by a company that is willing to sell to free and law abiding citizens.

I am curious, TCM.22R9 seems to be basically the same thing as 6.5CBJ with a FMJ, but why is it ONLY armscor makes the fucking .22tcm? they are always out of stock and impossible to find.

In the event of all-out war I can guarantee tungsten reserves will be heavily rationed with the vast majority being set aside for use in manufacturing. There are far more useful things to be done with the material (like cutting tools for making EVERYTHING) than giving it to Pvt Snuffy by the pound so he can shoot it into the dirt.

>I'm not aware of any deposits domestically.

I remember there being talk of a deposit out in Idaho that nobody wanted to crack open because the return just wouldn't be worth the investment. I don't know know whether that speaks to the size of the seam or just the difference in the price of labor, though.

Something like 2.5x the density of lead with higher hardness and much higher melting-point than steel (but a bit lower durability).
There's probably patent fuckery going on. Didn't the patent on 5.7x23 just recently run out though?
Also, everything in this guy's post.

Please. PLEASE. Can we talk about .45GAP? I don't think it got a fair shake by the market and it was clearly better than .45ACP.

Parent case is 10mm. So it'll drop into 10mm firearms.
It's definitely the preferred round of the Rob Liefeld version of the Punisher.

>thinking that relationship is anything like what OP posted.

No.

Attached: IT NO FIT.png (650x650, 138K)

You cant fit that in a handgun.

>tungsten-cored loadings
stopped reading right there.

brainlet

>almost double the ammo for the same weight
5.56 is not even close to double the weight of 6.5CBJ, especially if you're comparing AP to AP or their spoontip to something like M193.
>6.5 CBJ HET loaded cartridge weight: 7.5g (116gr)
>5.56 M193 loaded cartridge weight: 11.79g (181.9gr)
It's 54% heavier. Factoring in the weight of mags and you might bet to 60% heavier.

Now, there IS an argument for bulk. An MP9 mag takes up right at half the space of a 5.56 STANAG.

>but why is it ONLY armscor makes the fucking .22tcm?
They funded the development of it, and may have patented/copyrighted it.

Logistics-wise, you're better off with depleted uranium in several ways.

>let's machine the bullet out of tungsten
Great fucking idea, hope you're willing to foot the bill.

The Jew trick of "Consider how fucking stupidly expensive this venture would be."
The Jews have a lot of experience with that trick in particular.

>American civilians will never have access to any load that will penetrate a rifle plate
Just lathe turn a steel bullet for .308 and nylon coat it to save on your bore.

So? The military hardly ever uses handguns. And 6.5cbj velocity from a handgun barrel is significantly reduced so you get even less AP capability. Just slap AP ammo in existing rifles like we're already doing.

Because 4.6mm is slightly less good than 5.7mm, both which perform better from barrels longer than pistols. Not to say the 5.7mm is a worthless pistol cartridge, but why go out of your way to try to market a similar cartridge that's not quite as well performing?

I liked the way Paul Harrell put it with the 5.7mm, that if you have a job like say, an armored car driver, where you would run a legit risk of being attacked by multiple assailants wearing body armor, the Five Seven pistol is probably a good choice.
For most people, this isn't real risk to consider, so they prioritize other factors.

>implying PDW rounds arent essentially pistol rounds

>The Jew trick of "Consider how fucking stupidly expensive this venture would be."
It's called reality, and it doesn't give a fuck what tribe you belong to.

It's a sarcastic reply, you dweeb.

I've never seen an armored car where the guys were armed with anything but .38 revolvers and maybe a shotgun.

Basically their entire defense strategy is "don't get jumped with the vehicle open", and situational awareness goes a long way for that. Either the vehicle's buttoned up and you're pretty much good, or it's not and you're pretty much fucked.

Obviously more powerful cartridges tend to need longer barrels to realize their full benefits, I was talking realistically about the kinds of 5.56 arms that are in common use today.

The discussion started with steel, but you said penetration without qualifying, so it was necessary to clarify. And if you want to be OCD about the reply chain, user mentioned tungsten AP rounds in .308, which would actually perform better than in 5.56 because the tungsten is harder than steel. As soon as your projectile is comparably hard to whatever it impacts, total weight matters a lot because the projectile is no longer disintegrating on on impact.

Okay, since you're apparently actually that retarded.
>M993 is a tungsten cored AP 7.62x51
>M995 is a tungsten cored AP 5.56x45
>they share very similar construction technique
>M995 achieves greater penetration vs. steel armorplate from an M4's 14.5" barrel than M993 does from an M240B's 24.8" barrel
M993 does not reach parity with M993 until you're comparing an M240 vs. a mk18 and its 10.3" barrel.
Sectional density matters just as much as total mass, and M995 has much higher sectional density than M993 does. On top of being nearly 500fps faster from most US/NATO service weapons unless there's a huge disparity in barrel length (such as mk18 vs M240)

Ok, you were right.

Was that intended for me? Because I already hold that opinion. They're basically the same size and energy, just bottlenecked.

They also have a further range due to being flat shooting. Being able to shoot 200m is a huge improvement over 75m.

>tungsten AP vs lead ball
>soft steel that gets pitted by lead ball

Pdw specific calibers are a meme. Name one thing they do better than a SBR 556.

>reduced ammo weight
>reduced concussion, especially inside a vehicle
>mag-in-grip, and therefore reasonable barrel length in a compact package like pic related

Attached: cbj-ms-2.jpg (650x418, 25K)

let's talk about .41 AE instead

>competed with .40 S&W and 10mm
>not even considered between the other two
>all it takes is a barrel swap on a normal 9mm firearm

Attached: 250px-41aeand9mm.png (250x299, 116K)

Not necessarily embracing the CBJ cartridge specifically, but compare the overall size to this 2" SBR.

Attached: 2inch SBR.jpg (1280x720, 89K)

Ew no t. 10mm

Let's talk about 9x22AE instead
>basically .357sig years before sig invented it
>9mm in front, 9mm in back, capacity in the middle where it counts.
>just a drop-in barrel for your existing 9mm slide

Attached: 9x22ae.jpg (476x172, 68K)

>Just as good as your m4
Yeah nah, I'm good being a cheapskate

What’s the point?

Same as .357sig -- more faster is more better.
But unlike .357sig, you can easily swap to 9mm for the cheapest range ammo.

BOZ pill is easy to swallow
You get to shit all over 5.7 fags with a unique and exciting cartridge that can be made to work into any 10mm firearm.
You can get damn near 3000fps and eat Kevlar for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

And the best part is, you can't actually do any of that, because it's owned by an antigun bong who will only sell to military and law enforcement.

So really, it fits well in the 6.5CBJ thread.

?

Attached: rghde.png (642x300, 30K)

BOZ is fat.
5.7 is slim.
Shoot more small boolet better than shoot less big boolet.

A reserve is not production capacity. Those 140 thousand tons will run dry very fast, then you're left scrambling to switch back to steel for decades.

From that exact page:
> China is the largest producer of tungsten in the world, with the country’s annual tungsten production equivalent to over 83% of the global production.
> As a remedy to domestic overproduction, the Chinese government has instituted a production ceiling of tungsten which is currently at 91,300 tons per year.
> the United States is a top tungsten consuming country and annually uses about 20,000 tons of tungsten in current industrial application.
Assuming we don't fire a single shell of the stuff in the next major war, we can go 7, maybe 8 years if Canada just gives us all of theirs.

How can one obtain the BOZ paraphernalia? I imagine a g20 could be used as a base? My dad is a wildcatter. And If I bought him the stuff for father's day.....

Attached: bq-5c93951f7ebb5.png (900x895, 1.07M)

Fuck the govt gimme good ammo thread

now what we really need is a 40sw necked down to .309 or .312 so we can have similar but slightly better 762x25 ballistics out of modern handguns.

Neck it down to .32 caliber, I want more projectile weight.

You do realize .32 pistols are all .308 to .312 bullet diameter, so basically what he said?

also reduced weapon weight. The B&T MP9 (which can be swapped to CBJ) weights a scant 3lb. These things are tiny, light, and actually don't suck

And in the even of world war we could cheaply mass product blowback sub guns.

Attached: IMG_20190328_093522_972.jpg (1280x659, 73K)

Yeah you're right. I was thinking in terms of a pistol. Bottlenecked cartridges in a shoulder weapon are decent. Bottlenecked cartridged in a pistol are pointless IMO

The MP9 is locked breech though.
This allows it to have a lighter bolt and makes it much quieter with a suppressor.

The MP9 is probably not only the best 9mm carbine made but also the best “PDW” style weapon as well once you swap in CBJ