Bears vs Lions

bears are made out of meat, lots of it in fact

time spend foraging every day vs getting one big kill and eating for days

I find this a very interesting topic lol

The lions if they attacked at night

A big variable here is the makeup of the bears. If we take a black bear to be "average", they are smaller and lighter than the average lion, so black bears vs lions gives the lions a clear advantage. Grizzly bears are slightly larger than Lions so that would probably be pretty close. A polar or Kodiak bear is much larger than a lion though. The breakdown of how many big bears vs. smaller bears is an important factor to know.

That said, Lions are already adept at hunting strategies to take down animals which are bigger and more dangerous than they are. They are also used to working together as a unit. Bears lack this critical advantage. Unless the bears have very significant numbers of big bruisers like Kodiaks then I say the lions win.

I'm not as informed on the makeup of different bears, about what ratio of species would make them a roughly equal match in terms of poundage would you say?

I'm much more interested in what a bear vs lion campaign would look like, you know, lion raids, bear mass charges, objectives and logistics

no dude, real bears literally huff jet fuel

Lions are ambush predators, and if they don't catch a bear on it own while with a bunch of his own pals, you wouldn't ever see a fight between the two. But in a hypothetical mono y mono between a full sized lion and a full sized griz, the bear would win

Okay there Winnie, give us the rundown on bears and their drug habits.

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>Savannah like terrain
Lions would win because that's what they're used to. Plus lions are pack animals anyway, so they would acclimate better to life in a regular army. Bears would have more of a culture shock both for being outside of their usual element and for being forced into a military outfit despite being solitary creatures.

bears mosey into landing strip and FUCKING HUFF THE FUCKING FUEL

---_---

I know...because i showed them where its att
:P

thefix.com/content/russian-bears-hooked-jet-fuel91494

A typical male lion weighs 350-550 lbs
Female is 260-450

Black bears vary a lot based on where they live, anywhere from 100 lbs for a small female at the southern end of the range up to about to about 500 for an adult male at the northern end.

Polar/Kodiak bears are normally about 250-800 lbs, but they can get bigger.

Grizzly female is about 300-400 lbs, 400-800 for a male.

There are a whole bunch of smaller bears worldwide, some well under 100 lbs, but I don't know much about them other than the fact that they exist.

I'd think that a mix of blacks and grizzlys would be appropriate since that would put them roughly on size with the lions. I'm assuming both sides would have some juveniles, smaller species, and also a small number of larger-than-normal specimens. Lions have been recorded at over 800 lbs, polar bears at over 1500 lbs.

I did try to include the caveat of the terrain being relatively rugged and somewhat wooded to provide bears with something to fall back on, but you're right that the environment favors lions

my intention is for both sides to be on relatively equal footing as to compare their methods of fighting as a unified species and the objectives they'd be required to meet for them to succeed, such as lions successfully hunting and bears successfully reproducing

basically how do these two very different apex animals handle their own weaknesses and exploit the enemies as a cohesive unit in organized warfare

Bears would be mostly defensive. So they would probably entrench if they had the cognitive ability to do so, while lions would use guerilla tactics to hit bears logi convoys and other soft points. there would only be true force on force battles after the bear command had been sufficiently destabilized in an area. So in short:
>bears are the US army
>lions are the VC
Now that being said, the bears would probably numerically win any true force on force engagements.

>That said, Lions are already adept at hunting strategies to take down animals which are bigger and more dangerous than they are. They are also used to working together as a unit. Bears lack this critical advantage.

/thread

But how many would it take to reach the sun?

very, very true

let's say both sides have an officer corps of 100 men out of the 5k combatants to make up for this biological difference that would otherwise make this conflict unwinnable for the bears

they are capable of foresight and planning, but not problem solving in the same way as humans or even crows (they still lack concepts such as water displacement and such)

Carnivores almost never fight each other

>bears is an all inclusive term, they'd be a mix of blacks, grizzlies and others
Yeah, this is gonna go well.

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>as a cohesive unit in organized warfare
See my last point about bears experiencing culture shock. They don't by their nature operate in cohesive units, lions do. For a real life example of this all you need to do is look the the Afghani National Army. They're a bunch of villagers and farmers who would rather be fucking 13 year old boys and smoking opium than soldiering. Much how bears would rather be tripping balls than fighting, despite being generally tougher than lions. Lions on the other hand come from a paramilitary society anyway, so organizing and fighting in austere conditions is nothing new to them. All they need is a steady water source and they're good to go.
Tl;dr like some user already said, 1 grizz vs 1 lion, the grizz wins every time. Burr Army vs Lion Army, the Burrs would crumble.

I can accept that truth, but I'm more interested in removing it from the equation to further discuss the conflict itself

Lol black bears are pussies, you can tree them just by being loud.

what would victory/failure conditions look like for either side?

would starvation be the go to in order to achieve submission, or maybe scorched earth? internment? genocide?

how does one side or the other claim superiority despite their weaknesses and by exploiting the enemies?

>I can accept that truth
What truth, that the burr army would crumble?
>remove it to further discuss the conflict
If you remove the literal factor that would cause the downfall of the bears so the two are on even terms then the war would be a stalemate. Both sides would become war weary to the point that they both cease caring. Bear veterans continue to get drafted and desert in high numbers, lion veterans continue to serve their nation on the front lines for a promise of a leg up in life. Entire colonies bear deserters form and drift from one war torn city to another looking for their next honey fix. 22 lions a day commit suicide due to a mix of a general apathetic attitude from the general public and an inability to cope with the sacrifices they made for their country. Some lions go on to start successful web comics, others start a meme t-shirt company, some even make sub-par coffee. An ex-war corespondent lion writes a book that would help a good portion of lion veterans out, but not enough read it because they're too depressed to open a book, also reading is for fags lmao.
Did I miss anything?

that being a part of a hierarchal unit isn't natural for bears where for lions it is, and so lions would be naturally talented at fielding a military, at least compared to bears

I want to remove it as a factor because it ends the discussion based on a single truth that bears aren't as organized as lions when I don't think that tells the entire story of how exactly they would go about fighting a war

how would a bear general go about organizing his army in a way that could compete with the lions natural aptitude for cooperation?

Bears can eat lions too though. Plus bears can eat fish, whales, seals, etc.

Also bears are a good bit smarter than lions.

But even small bears fight tigers and win.

Lions are lazy as fuck, bears spend 6 months in continuous activity

infighting would break out too quickly among the lions given they would constantly have coups about whose the alpha, the bears would definitely have the camaraderie advantage given you see how much they work together when hunting salmon. And that's another point, the bears have the naval swimming advantage allowing for quick escapes from ambushed. Also the bears are more robust at long term survival, so if they manage to draw the war out they could win given if the lions start reproducing they would eventually exact the one kitten policy decimating their chances at future generations ( look at china ). All in all the bears are the clear winners >pic not related

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>it ends the discussion based on a single truth
That single truth is what would end the war, what aren't you getting? You question is like asking "what would happen if the French had been more organized when the Germany invaded in WWII?" It's an easy answer, it would have been a tie, or possibly a French victory considering that they had the tech advantage. So how would the Bear general fight the lions if the bear army was as organized as the lions? He probably would use lion tactics, only attack when you have numbers, only attack weak points etc. But again, this isn't a true bear vs lion conflict. This is super bears vs regular lions.

Followed by 6 months of continuous inactivity. Whereas lions sleep when they need to and hunt when they need to. Which is hardly lazy, it's just conservation of force.

how do the bears adapt their strategies/tactics to overcome their weaknesses and compete with the lions?

what does that look like?

how do the lions respond?

that's the conversation I want to have, not this "one side loses because this or else it's not realistic"

Also just because a bear isn't hibernating doesn't mean they are constantly awake you brainlet. They sleep when they need to as well.

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>how do bears adapt
By deserting and getting stoned under bombed out overpasses. Just like the ANA.

The notion that bears cannot act as an organized unit is not completely true. They do not sleep together or hunt together like Lions do. But they do stay in regions together, older bears will.mentor younger bears in their region etc. They only get territorial of bears in other regions. They know there is strength in numbers

that's a very dismal and less than constructive view, I don't really want to talk to you anymore

PERSONALLY I think that bears and lions would deal with their unique organizational issues in some interesting ways

I can almost see their command structures developing similar to jedi/sith, with bears having masters who take a group of padawans with them on campaign before turning them over as fully fledged knights to the more rank and file military

I can see lions taking a page from the sith in that they'd deal with internal disputes via simple duels to the death with the winner retaining command, perhaps they'd even go klingon with it and only allow you to challenge your immediate superior and only with a proper reason such as a tactical disagreement

to address the obvious disadvantage the bears have in terms of mobility vs a raiding party of lions, I think they'd do a significant amount of turtling, especially as the war drags on and supplies become scarce

I think they'd seize valuable assets with overwhelming force (such as water holes and caves) and fortify them to the best of their ability in an effort to deny lions supply as much as possible being that they are obligate carnivores

I think the lions would respond similarly to the germans u boat doctrine by raiding bear-avans (ha) both for their own benefit and to deny the bears communication and logistic support

I can see a protracted war playing out similar to the situation in early medieval Rus with there being free city states who did have walls and those towns who didn't have walls and quickly fell to the mongols

let's say the lions predict this eventuality at the outset of the conflict

how might they attempt to destabilize the bears ability to field a unified force and seize these assets to begin with?

>carnivores fighting each other
>without tools
>war
>without weapons
>Jow Forums

I can't think of another board with enough insight into how wars are fought to provide insightful commentary on how such a conflict would develop

unfortunately, it would seem that all the posters with more than two brain cells to rub together are all at work or in other threads

Bears would build fortifications. They would patrol the area for Intruding Lions. Basing this off of their " leave me alone and I'll leave you alone attitude" Lions would raid. Probably at night. I could see them wanting to capture ALL the land. Given that they do expand their territory if their coalition (lion pack)grows in numbers. If that means bear genocide, so be it. Or making bears their slaves.

I think the lions would spread themselves far and wide early on to force bears to do the same in order to protect their ill fortified territory, essentially defeat in detail

this would prevent bears from forming up into a singular unit and spread panic on the home front as to who is going to be raided by these sneaky murderers next

it'd be great propaganda for the bears though, they'd likely see a sharp increase in voluntary enlistment and non combatant productivity, it might even backfire on the lions in the long run

automatic win for the bears. lions kill off all claimants to the position of alpha upon achieving the position. this includes newborn.

bears, while mildly socially inclined, don't have that problem. bears outnumber the lions within a season.

also the bears are omnivorous while the lions are carnivores. this means that in order for the lions to survive they must eat meat. bears don't have that restriction. once all the prey animals have left, bears can still eat berries and twigs. of course they could also just eat the lions. both sides would of course be eating each other.

I think we need to realize the political ideology these animals would enact, clearly the lions would be quick to adopt communism given their vast numbers it's inevitable that some low level betas will start the revolution, they will quickly consume themselves. Bears on the other hand would most likely adopt an anarcho capitalism style, putting the old and weak to work producing firearms and then gaining the edge with science, seeing their economical advantage the bees would be quick to join their coalition in exchange for a few bee slaves for honey and will help destroy those lion faggots.

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I hadn't considered their level or style of social organization, that adds a whole new dimension

I mean, whether or not they comprehend the concepts, I agree they'd both be predisposed to particular ideologies

with that in mind, I think we can infer their respective victory conditions

I think the lions would seek to dominate and vassalize the bears, or cleanse them in trying. conversely, I don't think the bears would tolerate such anti-indiviualust types that close to them and would likely try to eject them from their sphere of influence or neuter their power projection

assuming my assumptions about their social structure and victory conditions are right, I think that the bears primary strategies would revolve around maintaining autarky and locking down as much of their own and the lions territory as possible with inflicting mass casualties as a secondary objective, the goal being to remove lion from the premises while avoiding any sort of damage on the home front

for the lions, I think their strategy would revolve around a campaign of terror and scorched earth to break the bears spirits and damage their ability to supply themselves. since lions supply can be maintained on the move via hunting, I think they'd commit a shit load of raiding and pillaging simply for the sake of denying the enemy. I think endgame for the lions would be capturing or assassinating bear elders to destroy any sense of cultural unity remaining before offering some pretty attractive peace terms that would result in the lions dominance over the bears

now that's a lot of supposing and I'm no general, I'd like to hear how others would go about achieving these goals or maybe even how different goals would be more desirable and how to achieve those

Bears aren't actually in continuous torpor during the winter. Common myth.

What mobility issue? Bears are fast as fuck at top speed and are very long distance endurance travellers. If anything lions get btfo by bear task forces.

I think the bears would receive many reject lions given their hierarchical organization and the bears would train them to fight back, think germany ww1 sending communism to russia to defeat them.

a polar bear could totally kick a lions ass

They'd never be able to fight because neither of them can get to the super bowl.

Based and newenglandpilled

During California gold rush they imported lions to fight bears. Can't remember who won though.