Are Semi auto shotguns i herently better than pump actions? If so why does almost everyone proffesionally (police...

That depends. How fast do you think you need to shoot a shotgun in a defensive situation? You can fire a pump shotgun pretty fast if you need to.

First of all, don't use birdshot for fucks sake. It's called birdshot because it's good at killing birds. People are a lot more durable than birds. Secondly, a 12 gauge shotgun isn't as good for home defense as people make it out to be. It's big, has a decent amount of recoil, and is louder than fuck especially in hallways. A handgun, pistol caliber carbine, or some lower recoil rifle would be much more practical.

Finally, life isn't a video game, people and weapons don't have stats, so don't fret too much over specifics. Whatever gun you're most comfortable using is whatever gun you're going to be most effective with, whatever it is, so just pick up something and start practicing with it. You're fighting a couple of burglars, not a zombie horde, so your top priority doesn't need to be maximizing the amount of lead down range as quickly as possible.

There's still versatility in their less-lethal guns though, right? It's just a normal shotgun with different colored furniture and I could, if need be, toss a buckshot or slug into it and fire, yeah?

>There's still versatility in their less-lethal guns though, right? It's just a normal shotgun with different colored furniture and I could, if need be, toss a buckshot or slug into it and fire, yeah?
yes
however if a semi was redesigned to fire less lethal rounds specifically it wouldnt work with normal ammo.

I fuggin wish I hadn’t missed out on those NG remmys
By the time I saw the thread, they were gone

Semi makes more sense if the gun is acceptably reliable. Even more important than the increased cycling speed when it comes to follow up shots is going to be the noticeably lower recoil of most autoloading shotguns.
>You're fighting a couple of burglars, not a zombie horde, so your top priority doesn't need to be maximizing the amount of lead down range as quickly as possible.
Burglars who can kill you instantly by pointing at you. The fight stopping capability of properly loaded shotguns compared to pistol caliber weapons more than speaks for itself, self defense is all about risk aversion after all.

Semi auto is best if you can afford a good one. Some of the cheap ones can't handle both 3.5" magnum and cheap 2.75" target shells. I like the benelli super vinci, it cycles everything except the most underpowered 2.75" stuff. 3.5" BBs are the best when you want to make sure what you shoot at dies and being able to wow the fudds out there by taking down a duck at 90yds. It also allows for easy swapping between hunting tubes for duck genocide and stendo tubeazines to do double duty as a 3-gun shotgun. Definitely not cheap but if you want only one shotgun it's worth the price. Too long for home defense but I prefer a carbine for that job.

>The fight stopping capability of properly loaded shotguns compared to pistol caliber weapons more than speaks for itself
Yes, getting shot by a shotgun is worse than getting shot by a PCC. That said, it's significantly easier to disable someone (especially in a dark hallway at 2AM or something) with a compact piece holding 30rds of 9mm than with a large piece holding 5rds of 12g. Shotguns don't spread nearly as much as they do in movies, and missing with a shotgun puts you in a much more dangerous position than missing with a PCC.

Regardless, though, an overwhelming majority of criminals will flee as quickly as possible the moment you even point a gun at them, let alone fire it, so it's probably not a big deal what you go with.

>Secondly, a 12 gauge shotgun isn't as good for home defense as people make it out to be
Yeah it is. Shotguns are good at one thing: putting a fuckhuge hole in something at short range. That's exactly what home defense calls for.

>Shotguns are good at one thing: putting a fuckhuge hole in something at short range.
This is a meme popular among the uninformed. The hole it makes isn't "fuckhuge" especially at 10-15 yards or less, which you wouldn't be exceeding inside the average home.

A shotgun is designed to create numerous wound channels, increasing the rate at which the target bleeds out. This is useful because it allows people to take down very large animals with a normal sized gun. If you're fighting humans, one or two well placed bullet wounds will disable them sufficiently. Increasing the number or size of wounds past that point is unnecessary.

>that said, it's significantly easier to disable someone (especially in a dark hallway at 2AM or something) with a compact piece holding 30rds of 9mm than with a large piece holding 5rds of 12g.
No. Both are just as accurate and easy to get on target at close range, also compact shotguns are totally a thing. You're really underplaying the difference in terminal effectiveness between the two while greatly exaggerating the difference in handling
>shotguns don't spread nearly as much as they do in movies
Obviously, but they do spread rapidly when they strike dense things like flesh, creating a large cone of disrupted tissue which reduces the burden of proper shot placement greatly.
>missing with a shotgun puts you in a much more dangerous position than missing with a PCC.
Missing is horribly negligent with either, rather unlikely at across the room distances, and i seriously doubt that you can reacquire your target and fire off the 3-4 rounds necessary to stop them(assuming not a one stop shot) with a pcc quicker than you could reacquire your target and fire the almost certainly one shot necessary to stop them with a shotgun.

In the end the stats speak for themselves. assuming a basic level of skill from the shooter, a single shot from a PCC will have a roughly 1 in 3 chance of stopping an attacker, and if that doesn't they will likely have to fire 2-3 more rounds before they are stopped. Meanwhile, even when including cases where birdshot was used or shotguns other than 12g, a shotgun will immediately end the fight in the first round fired nearly 9 out of 10 times.
buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

every day i regret not getting an ONG top folder

>call others uninformed
>buckshot is meant for big game
>If you're fighting humans, one or two well placed bullet wounds will disable them sufficiently. Increasing the number or size of wounds past that point is unnecessary.
Fake expert.

How can people do this to their guns? Allowing abrasive ass concrete to be in contact with one of my guns is unthinkable.

>A shotgun is designed to create numerous wound channels,

Or increase probability of a hit/disabling hit.

If your 2 shots happen to JUST miss the CNS and heart, your attacker may still be able to kill you before he dies. With 1 triggerpull, a shotgun has 9 chances to hit either, spread over more area than just the ~.30-.50 your pistol carbine will probably have. Even a great hollowpoint that opens to .95 is smaller than the path 9 separate balls are gonna open up.

>Both are just as accurate and easy to get on target at close range, also compact shotguns are totally a thing.
I didn't say shotguns are inaccurate or difficult to use. A shotgun has significantly more recoil and holds far fewer rounds, so it's much less forgiving to miss.
>also compact shotguns are totally a thing
They are even less forgiving for the same reasons.
>and i seriously doubt that you can reacquire your target and fire off the 3-4 rounds necessary to stop them(assuming not a one stop shot) with a pcc quicker than you could reacquire your target and fire the almost certainly one shot necessary to stop them with a shotgun.
I made sure to say earlier that whatever weapon you practice the most with and are most comfortable with will be the one you are most effective with. If you have enough experience with a shotgun that you can confidently say you could use a shotgun better than anything else, I can't tell you you're wrong.

I can say, though, that PCCs or some other low recoil semi-auto rifle would be lighter, more compact, have less recoil, much easier to suppress with greater ammunition capacity.

Probably because some people see guns as tools and not toys like a bing bing wahoo Nintendo switch

Not an argument.

You seem to be seriously overestimating your average burglar. You can look up videos of violent criminals and gang bangers getting shot nowhere near their vitals and dropping. You know why? Because getting shot is incredibly painful and devastating regardless of how important the body part you got hit in is.

Like, come on man, they're not fighting you to the death. They're after your TV or something. You shoot at them, they flee. You hit them and they're disabled, they put their hands up. They are bleeding out rapidly and in severe pain and you're the only person that can get them emergency services so they don't die.

So you went from going on about some fudd lore that a single shotgun blast versus your arbitrary 2 handgun rou ds is excessive to downright libtard shit of assuming how a unpredictable criminal is going to think

This has to be bait

You sound like a massive fucking pussy

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>Advocating a semi-auto rifle over a pump action shotgun is fudd lore
>Saying your average petty thief is a coward and not immune to bullets is libtard shit
>Someone disagreeing with you is bait
You know that throwing around Jow Forums hivemind approved buzzwords isn't an argument right? I know you're trying to fit in, but think for yourself instead of regurgitating the dumb shit you absorb here.

Oh, lord no. Your average burglar would run away from you missing them with a .22.

Not everyone is your average burglar. If you need "a gun and they will either run away or surrender to even the least lethal shot ever" then a shotgun is fine, because it is a gun. If you NEED lethal CNS/heart shot with high probability, because it was someone less random burglar and more determined, a shotgun takes your pistol and, with standard 2 3/4 00 buck, multiplies your chances 9x per triggerpull. Does it have drawbacks, sure. But it's tried and true.

>talks down to people for posting on the same site hes on

Now thats some cognitive dissonance, what a pathetic cuck

>Not everyone is your average burglar.
Yeah I know how averages work. Do you think the Hulk is breaking into your house or something? Some 17 year old black kid busting in your windows because he wants your home entertainment system isn't showing up with a fucking plate carrier on.

>standard 2 3/4 00 buck, multiplies your chances 9x per triggerpull
First of all, no it doesn't. Firing nine projectiles doesn't make it nine times more likely to hit something important. If you're aiming at his foot, it doesn't matter how many times you fire with whatever weapon you've got, you're never going to hit his heart. Where you aim is significantly more important than what you're aiming with, which would indicate that what's easier to aim would be more effective.

>Does it have drawbacks, sure.
Let's say someone's charging you with a knife. If they're 30 feet away, you've got a couple of seconds to disable them. Whatever you can aim and fire the fastest is what you need. If you miss, and they don't turn tail and run for whatever reason, you need to re-acquire your target and fire again as quickly as damn possible. For your average person, this means less recoil = good.

>Fuck, I can't counter anything he said
>I'll just throw even more buzzwords at him
Keep it up, chief.

To be clear you said that a PCC was a much more practical choice. Having 30 rounds on tap, a meaninglessly more compact firearm, and easy suppression aren't practical concerns for 99.9% of home defenders. Going from a 3/10 chance of stopping an armed aggressor immediately to a 9/10 chance absolutely is as it massively reduces an aggressors window of opportunity for killing/maiming you. The core of your argument simply doesn't hold true. PCCs are plenty adequate HD firearms, I even use one myself for various personal reasons, but claiming that shotguns are anything but an exceptional HD weapon is just silly.

>PCCs are plenty adequate HD firearms, I even use one myself for various personal reasons, but claiming that shotguns are anything but an exceptional HD weapon is just silly.
I don't know how you define "exceptional", but you seem to keep thinking that me saying that 'low recoil and high ammo capacity is better for average people with minimal training' is akin to saying 'shotguns are useless and for faggots'. Have you ever given an average person a 12g at the range? They nearly knock themselves on their ass. The adrenaline from the first shot makes them twitchy, their arms and shoulders quickly get tired, and within moments their aim is wobbling all over the god damn place. Conversely, an anorexic teenage girl could get a dozen rounds downrange out of a PCC or AR within seconds.

not that guy, but shotguns are quite literally most lethal first hit weapons available. One good first hit with a shotgun has 80% mortality/disablility in the subject. So if you can suck up the recoil of one shot, and get a good first hit without flinching too much, you will almost certainly get a lethal hit first go around. Nevermind that a semi-auto is much milder than a pump gun or double barrel.

>So if you can suck up the recoil of one shot, and get a good first hit without flinching too much, you will almost certainly get a lethal hit first go around.
I agree, but most people are incompetent, and weapons are no exception. The average person should prepare for a scenario in which more things go wrong than right. If your plan revolves around killing the bad guy with the first shot, and you miss the first shot, you suddenly don't have a plan.

Law enforcement agencies that still use the same gun for lethal and less-lethal ammo are few and far between, and setting themselves up for gigantic lawsuits.

If you are only running full-power defensive loads through a semi-auto shotgun, it will almost certainly be more reliable than a pump-gun, especially when operated under stress.

Price is pretty much the only valid reason for a law enforcement agency to pick a pump-action, but I'm sure plenty of them still subscribe to fuddlore about pump-guns being supremely reliable.

>not that guy, but shotguns are quite literally most lethal first hit weapons available.

not that guy, but you're assuming the user is capable of reliably making hits with the shotgun under stress, when a PCC gives you a significantly higher magazine capacity.

nice trips BTW

>First of all, no it doesn't
>foot

I obviously mean shot for shot, location for location, shooting him in the foot with a rifle or PCC won't either. It increases the area of effect of the shot. To your 1 single projectile, it has 9 that all have a chance of hitting vitals.

>aim and fire the fastest

You can aim a shotgun or rifle fast. The follow-up shot argument is true, of course this comes down to individual comfort. I'm NOT saying a PCC or rifle is bad for home defense. You're the only one claiming one is bad, and they're all more than adequate. They both have advantages and disadvantages. I personally have 2 HD weapons at the ready at all times, a PCC and a pump shotgun.

>First of all, no it doesn't... tyrone's foot etc
Both of your arguments are BS. Nobody defends themselves by rolling a 20 sided die to decide where to shoot somebody. Realistically your shot placement will be semi random in nature but rather reliably located around a fixed aimpoint which is typically going to be upper center mass. The difference is that given the external and terminal spread of buckshot you have VERY high odds of putting several holes in critically important structures per trigger pull while a single projectile weapon has significant odds of missing anything of critical importance. Compare the spread of buckshot mid gel block to an anatomical model of the human chest and you'll quickly see what im talking about.
>Let's say someone's charging you with a knife.
Sure, and lets use an actually realistic and relevant example since long range attempted stabbings inside the home aren't terribly common. If somebody is charging you with a knife from approximately 15ft away(top of my stairs to a couple feet step inside my room), you've got 1-1.5 seconds to disable them ASSUMING that you're both on an even playing field in terms of action vs reaction. Around .3-.5 seconds will be spent presenting your firearm from a low ready, and missing a COM shot is very unlikely but missing a CNS shot is likely if not probable at this distance. For your average person getting off 3-4 COM hits is very unlikely even with a lower recoil firearm, OTOH getting off one COM shot with a higher recoiling firearm is very doable.

Shotgun shells vary more then other firearm designs in pressure. This makes it difficult to design an autoloader that can handle different shells without problem. The Auto-5 uses fiddly friction rings to adjust things, others have odd gas systems, all and all it's never quite as easy.

Pump action shotguns are simple and robust, with minimal disadvantages.

The non-lethal shells they use are sometimes insufficiently powered to cycle the action

>and a pump shotgun.
so why the pump? Consensus ITT seems to be that semi-auto is always better

Because I don't own a semi-auto, and a pump is better than an O/U.

>Consensus ITT seems to be that semi-auto is always better

kek, looks like I spoke too soon

My favorite upside of a pump action is that you can swap out the barrel easily so you can use a short barrel for home defense or hiking and swap it out for a long barrel with a choke for birds or even put on a rifled slug barrel.

>I don't know how you define "exceptional"
excelling at the task at hand assuming reasonably competent usage and reasonable situational factors are at play
>Have you ever given an average person a 12g at the range? They nearly knock themselves on their ass...Conversely, an anorexic teenage girl could get a dozen rounds downrange out of a PCC
If we're talking about a 15yr old 100lbs girl who has never used a firearm before then yes, a 12g shotgun is a much less practical choice than a PCC, but nobody is talking about that but you and bringing it up at this point out of the blue is just silly. That's akin to saying that a revolver is a much more practical HD firearm than an AR because your 84yr old gamgam couldn't be trusted to remember how to operate one under stress. It in no way affects the practicality of a 12g shotgun for the reasonably able bodied and practiced. Also, i have both given, seen given, and been given 12g shotguns on the range before to others(and myself at the time) who had zero experience with shotguns and very little experience with firearms in general. Never have i seen what you described happen.
>muh capacity
Simply a non factor. Both firearms have more than enough for the VAST majority of reasonable situations.

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>Pump action shotguns are simple and robust, with minimal disadvantages.

Only if you completely discount the significantly higher probability of user error.

>significantly higher probability of user error
I'd like to see those stats.