>Research suggests that one change could have lowered that number by 40 percent: smaller bullets. >A study last year, published in JAMA Network Open, examined the type of weapon used in every fatal and nonfatal shooting in the city. It found that — regardless of the time of day, the number of wounds or the circumstances of the crime — the size of the bullet affected which gunshot victims lived and which ones died. >If all the shooters in Boston had used the types of guns in circulation with the biggest bullets, the homicide rate could have been 43 percent higher, the researchers calculated recently, even with the same people committing exactly the same crimes.
Daily reminder that John Moses Browning's (pbuh) .45 Automatic Colt Pistol is now scientifically PROVEN to out class the puny 9mm shitabellum.
>b-but muh capacity! >w-what about muh bullet design! >i-its all about muh shot placement!
Nonsense. As the New York Times has so gracefully demonstrated in this article, none of these things matter at all. Only the size of the hole left from the sheer stopping power of .45 automatic coming out of Jamal's stolen hi-point or m&p shield subcompact is the determining factor in gun lethality. The science is settled.
Yeah most criminals use FMJ, bigger ball ammo means a bigger hole, which is the most invasive wounding aspect with cheap standard pressure FMJ. 9mm NATO is closer to +P in pressure, and the added energy helps to increase the size of the wound channel, but criminals aren't even using that... they're using the cheapest ammo they can get, underloaded, light ball projectiles (target ammo) that have a tendency for passing straight through, causing a thin wound channel. If you're using cheap ammo, .45/40 will have more mass, more energy and more reliable wounding.
Modern duty ammo really minimizes those differences by making 9mm energetically closer to .40 and .45, while also offering expansion and avoiding excessive over penetration (which means more similar energy dumped into the target).
Julian Ortiz
which would be more concerning to you being stabbed through your forearm with an Ice Pick Or Be stabbed through the forearm with 1/4" rebar
You're more likely to miss than to hit your target Most people would rather take a 20 round 9mm vs a 13 round .45
Michael Jones
Imagine thinking that 115+ shootings with 9mm has the same data value as only ~37 shootings with .45 acp. No wonder .45 fuddcp users have such low iq
Jordan Johnson
I dount this article is considering marksmanship, only the lethality of gunshot wounds, but yes, higher capacity and lower recoil means more (and easier/quicker) follow up shots
Henry Turner
I just like how the .22 and 9mm are to scale and the .45 looks like .50 AE next to them. Also, how will it help the grabber narrative if the old, featureless, lower capacity guns are the theoretically deadlier ones?
Julian Sanders
Opens the narrative to arguing certain calibers are excessive based on wounding potential
Leo Jackson
It looks like they lump in other with large caliber, which probably includes rifles, even says in the studies (.357 magnum, .40, .44 magnum, .45, 10 mm, and 7.62×39 mm) for large
Jaxon Howard
I highly doubt their methodology was sound. These fake news mongers always deliberately ignore important factors when using fake statistics to back up their fake narratives.
>narrative: black people are less likely to get home loans >truth: anyone who tries to but a home in a high crime area has a harder time getting a loan >narrative: black people don't get calls about their resumes >truth: people of all races react negatively to the weird made up names used by trashy parents of all races Etc. They probably won't even publish their data this time because they know someone will analyze it properly and find out the truth.
Luis Lee
9mmfag here, and I will never say that it is better than .45. I just use 9 because I'm stingy and want to keep the same ammo for all my pistols.
Landon Powell
Ah yes the beacon of trustworthy information in the 21st century, the nytimes
Oliver Cooper
>7.62mm is larger than 9mm Typical fake news.
Carson Bell
>i carry 380 just so I can kick you while you’re down
Blake Jenkins
cuz i get more shots. ;)
Joseph Perry
>What do you need these large calibers for user??? Are you trying to kill people? Glad you agree they're dangerous! >What do you need guns for?? The only caluibur you can legally buy is too small for hunting or self defense! Glad you agree with our buyback program!
Christopher Scott
>New York Times >a source on gun info
oh no no no no, what's happening to Jow Forums?
Christian Garcia
"Other" large caliber are 83% lethal. I'm getting a new pistol chambered in "other."
Notice those higher numbers on the .32. Makes a fella wonder. .32 mouse gun master race?
Nicholas Fisher
It's because the users of .32 auto are all trained in the ancient art of czechnology.
My 1903, true son of John Moses Browning, is humored by your remark.
Mason Ross
They're actually claiming that bigger calibers are the more "modern" choice. So to answer your question, they're flat-out denying it.
Jason Morgan
With the added benefit of being able to use the magwell as a pocket pussy if you leave it out in direct sun for a while
Camden Price
This. >.32 for the pocket >.357 for the belt >other for the home
Everything else is obsolete.
Bentley Wilson
At least now the fudds will reeee as the grabbers try to take their 45 AARP
Logan Gray
>K.E. = 1/2 m v2 Do public schools not teach this? What are you caliberlets doing?
Andrew Murphy
>NYT discovers something normal people have known for thousands of years: that hitting someone with something big hurts more than hitting them with something small
it's a genuine mystery as to why this newspaper is dying
Luke Morgan
according to this 1989 article from the u.s. DOJ, the thing that matters the most for incapacitation is penetration. and according to lucky gunners studies, all of the popular pistol calibers are capable of reaching the 12" minimum required penetration depth with the right bullet weight and load.
>t. teaches SAT prep Oh fuck, I hope you're charging the parents the appropriate amount for babysitting their retards hopped up on speed.
Jack Powell
>I just like how the .22 and 9mm are to scale and the .45 looks like .50 AE next to them They're all to scale, user.
Austin Gomez
For real tho..... I don’t wanna get hit by a Minie Ball
Brody Gray
>30 round pistol in .22 Mag I used to avoid Kel-Tecs, but this has me interested
Sebastian Brooks
>not to scale
looks like this user is so used to his peashooters that he doesn't recognize the long, girthy case of a bullet with real stoppin power
Isaac Powell
Assuming a normal distribution, once you're passed 30 samples, central limit theorem kicks in. So yes, for the value of studies, 37 shootings is enough to assume you're sample's mean is clustered around the population's mean. So yes, the means from both 37 and 115 samples are both (probably) valid.
> upgraded to 1911s Guess nobody is getting caught with any of those RIAs and Kimbers, but maybe the real deal Holyfieds are rocking those Glock 21s?
>".357 is really just a fast 9mm!" 9mm apologists BTFOd. OTOH they apparently had a good point when it came to .40.
Ethan Ortiz
>10mm >0 non fatal
Based
Liam Lopez
See: This. >n=30 is sufficient >t. high school statistics That is a fallacy sometimes taught to children for the sake of simplicity. In this case it wouldn’t even be a stretch for the critical value to be off by .25. The .45ACP group legitimately does need a larger sample in order to be compelling. Especially given how many other variables there are in this (such as 9mm being preferred by more people, which includes more people that are inexperienced).
Jackson Myers
>Especially given how many other variables there are in this (such as 9mm being preferred by more people, which includes more people that are inexperienced). But larger samples would do nothing to correct for those variables.
Levi Adams
I would think that has something to do with it. The self-defense cartridge gel tests are really similar between different autoloading handgun calibers.
Luis Brown
My takeaway from that chart is fuck caliber debates, look at how much more lethal multiple wounds were, and how fucked someone is with a head/neck shot. Shame they didn't split out the chest by major organs hit.
If I just take this at face value and ignore some things, fuck .45, .357 Sig is the real deal.
Jacob Rodriguez
>That is a fallacy sometimes taught to children > Cental limit theorum ia a fallacy Oh, do tell.
Robert Robinson
It's actually .357 magnum though, which isn't surprising.
High end .357 sig is comparable or slightly better than typical .357 magnum though. Only with really hot loads or longer barrels does .357 magnum pull ahead by any more than a few 10s of FPS with your stereotypical 125gr loadings.
Eli Turner
The study is using .357 MAGNUM data
Lincoln Peterson
That’s correct. You would need to run a logistic regression for that, with a better methodology. As it is, n=37 is not compelling enough to say anything definitive. The separate point was that 9mm represents the general population more than .45ACP. It would be reasonable to suspect that people who use 9mm have less experience with a gun. Handgun aptitude is going to correlate with lethality, regardless of objective ballistic performance.
Ethan Johnson
Interesting.
Elijah Fisher
>The separate point was that 9mm represents the general population more than .45ACP. Okay.
> It would be reasonable to suspect that people who use 9mm have less experience with a gun. With the opposit being true for .45, in that people more familiar with pistols gravitate towards .45s? Not sure I'd go that far.
Grayson Peterson
>With the opposit being true for .45, in that people more familiar with pistols gravitate towards .45s? Not sure I'd go that far. more loke most 45 are older and more expensive. so you would have to be more of a gun enthusitst vs if you walk into a gunstore and ask them what to buy they are going to give you something in 9mm
Ayden Myers
If larger caliber is less representative of the general population, and more representative of those who are more skilled with firearms, then why was .40s lethality directly comparable to 9mms instead of between it and .45s or .357s? While i agree that neither data set is large enough to be particularly persuasive, to dismiss either or all larger calibers with your premise seems a bit premature. Worth noting is that .40s lethality was actually lower than 9mms while also being included in the "large caliber" category, meaning that with a sample size of 92, excluding the single rifle case and including a proportionally massive body of .40 data that was bringing down the overall average, the larger caliber category still significantly outperformed the medium caliber category.
Ryder Bennett
.40s are at least as popular as 9mm in 's pic, for whatever that's worth.
Daniel Cooper
Central limit theorem does not require that n=30; only that n
Lincoln James
That’s not what that means. I know logic is hard, but you have to try.
1. 9mm correlates with the general population; more than .45ACP. 2. The general population is inexperienced with a handgun.
It doesn’t specifically mean that people who are better with a handgun prefer .45ACP. But it does mean that, on average, those who use .45ACP are probably more experienced than the average person (who is more likely to use a 9mm).
If the study objectively considered ballistics rather than being open to these distortions, then it would be valid. But it’s not valid.
Samuel Howard
>boomertimes👌
Chase Carter
The study is limited to criminals
Brody Anderson
Liked AND shared!
Henry Jenkins
> Should really be n=100. What's the standard deviation of the population percentage of fatal .45 shootings, if you had to guess. If it's samll, swapping from a denominator of sqrt(30) to sqrt(100) isn't going to decrease it very much.
Adrian Hernandez
...
Jordan Wilson
>I know logic is hard, but you have to try. Insulting people will never result in them recognizing your greatness, user.
> It doesn’t mean that people who are better with a handgun than average prefer .45ACP. > It does mean that people who use .45ACP are [better with a handgun than average] Just so we're clear, are you saying that the better shots in this study chose .45 despite their preferences, or just the old A -> B != B -> A?
Brandon Sanchez
>dislike
Jonathan Wood
Not that faggot, and i don't particularly agree with him, but i think the argument is that people who are better shots don't up and decide to carry .45 over everything else, and also carrying .45 doesn't make you a better shot, but people who carry .45 tend to be better shots, because 9mm is more popular with normies. While i understand the idea, and think it might have some merit in some circumstances, personally i think that's probably going to turn out to be a very mild factor if any given the sample group.
Jordan Sanchez
...
Alexander Rivera
My Mexican coworker just refused to hire this black guy because he was black basically. He hired a pregnant spic woman and I'm really tempted to tell the state desu lol.
Evan Kelly
His point is that you can't assume the distribution of .45 woundings is normal due to the fact that the sample size is too small, you fucking idiot.
Aiden Nguyen
.32 acp confirmed as the patrician mousegun caliber
Benjamin Taylor
The whole point of .357 sig, the reason it's named .357 and not .355, is because it was designed to mimic .357 magnum but in an autoloader-ready casing.
Josiah King
>The fudds get fucked
If there was an ironclad, no chance of reversal agreement 100% faithful deal that in exchange for outlawing .45 ACP we would have all AWBs and AWB equivalents forbidden and no magazine restrictions ever to the last breath of the United States (and let's throw in hughes amendment abridged) I would sign that agreement instantly and gleefuly throw the fudds and their 1911s under the fucking bus. Get revenge for them having given up our rights time and time again while they clung to their 1911s and durr rifles 'fuck you I got mine'.
i really like muh 45 but i would unironically support this. fuck boomers they ruin the current market
Joseph Russell
This would be a bummer because I want to do a delisle carbine build at one point, but I'd support it wholeheartedly regardless.
Parker Peterson
This chart confirms what Ive long suspected: 5.7 is too lethal to quantify
Colton Nelson
this.
Ian Torres
Every gun JMB made got successively better, without fail. So going by that simple but proven metric 9mm is still superior as the 9mm Luger Hi-point was JMB fixing all the mistakes he made (and the Gov made him make) making the 1911. Most notably the choice of .45AARP over the much better performing and less recoiling 9mm Luger.
Brody Lewis
This a million times. Who gives a fuck. >If all the shooters in Boston had used the types of guns in circulation with the biggest bullets, the homicide rate could have been 43 percent higher, Holy shit what, shut the fuck up lmao
Evan Lewis
>the 9mm Luger Hi-point was JMB fixing all the mistakes he made
32+ samples is fine, and the CLT applies for any distribution. The original critique is that the change in mean fatality percentage from 9mm to .45 is probably staistically insignificant. I'll have to read the original paper, but from the graphs posted here, it also looks like they did not control for other issues like number of wounds or wound placement.
Jack Hall
...
Dominic Williams
Truly John Moses Brownings greatest design.
Jace Gray
I really like the control and sample size of this scientific study. Come back to me after they shoot the same guy 10,000 times with each bullet.
Ian Green
For real, practice that shot placement boyos.
Angel Bell
ITT seething millimeterlets reee and cry about their cuckpacity making up for their söy cartridge. >9cuckimeter stronk as 155mm arty with proper loadings guize ur just mad sharting fudds! Kek
9mm >Tiny >Measured in commie units >Old and dated
.45 >Large and intimidating >Measured in Freedom Units, like the free country it was born from >A proud American made timeless classic cartridge >Winner of several World Wars
