Okay guys, I posted several times and answered a few questions on regards of the actual lethality of certain rounds from my own personal professional experience. I told another user on a different thread that I would anecdote the stories, pathologies and aftermath of each patient I've seen throughout the years and give you guys some info on it so you can form your own opinion. Any other Medical user who wishes to either correct me or add to their stories please feel free to do so, please no larping, no bully and no trolling, since this could potentially save an anons life or possibly avoid death. Before we begin, Ill tell you guys a little background about me without doxing myself, Im a former trauma nurse living in a big urban city, I currently now work as Physical Therapy in a pain management clinic in the same city and have also served as a regular Infantry guy in the Army, although I was not a medic, I did obtain by CLS certification and also my EMT license in my state through the military. I worked alongside doc and a few flight surgeons doing MEDEVACs and CASEVACs down range. I will try to be as objective as possible on each cases along with the caliber that was used. Im hoping that this tread stays up until i get back to work Monday since I've told a few patients about it and some are more than happy to share pictures of their wounds and issues with this. Obviously , I will not be using real names and I will change the stories a bit since some of these are still active cases being investigate it by my city's police department. Also, once again..any other user with experience either personal or professional is more than free to add to this and help other anons get informed on the actual power and efficiencies of rounds without falling into that stupid silly FBI data base meme. Also I will get some rounds out of the way right now without a story or background, 9mm is lethal if used in multiple shots and hollow points, same goes for 40SW and 45ACP.
The real reliability and lethality of certain calibers
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tl,dr
Ekhm.
You can kill even with .22lr with no problem.
A .22-calibre Rohm RG-14 revolver, identical to the one used by John Hinckley Jr in the assassination attempt of US President Ronald Reagan
Reagan was struck by a single bullet that broke a rib, punctured a lung, and caused serious internal bleeding.
That's right Jow Forums. Your president died out of a SINGLE HIT IN A RIB by a .22
.22lr always was and always will be the best round for self-defence.
Low recoil. You can put more shots more accurately. Lighter. Much less louder (you won't go deaf/disorient yourself unlike the handcannons some people can carry). even 9mm is overkill for civilian self-defence.
With that being said ill start with my favorite round.
38SPL
>Patient is a 28 year old Caucasian male
>Was hanging out with a girl
>Girl was messing with another girls boyfriend
>Girlfriend was upset and came to find her
>Ended up getting involved and got shot right in the forehead by the girl
>Girl was using 38SPL and hit him right on the forehead.
>Projectile was stuck right in between his forehead and brain cavity
>Penetrated the skull yet didn't touch his brain
>went instantly on a coma for 4 months
>Woke up with severe lower back and cervical pain
>Severe nerve damage on all limbs along with poor mobility
>He has finally regained full mobility and has a regular day today life but now has severe pain coupled with bad PTSD from the incident.
>Round was extracted completely and if it was shot with FMJ he would've been dead by now
He currently still attending therapy and pain management but the damage is done. He now has nightmares everyday from the incident and his physical pain and mental health has been forever been changed. Overall, 38SPL is a good round if it was used properly, perhaps on a center mass shot with a good round , a good shooter and a good revolver he would be dead by now.
He didnt die from that you absolute mongoloid
I wanna hear some .25 acp cases
Well, 22LR is my next one ..
>Patient is a 34 year old african american male
>Incident happened when he was 19 yet still has issues from it
>Was hanging out at a bar minding his own business and sadly was at the wrong place with the wrong people and at the wrong time.
>Was shot 10 times with a UZI in 22LR being hit all 10 times in the low back and right gluteal area.
>None and I mean none of the rounds where extracted and are still inside his body.
>Doctors claim the rounds are too small to be extracted safely and are now stuck on his sacrum and lumbar area.
>Has a permanent limp and little to no mobility on the right arm
>He also cannot ever used his penis and cannot have sex at all due to losing complete use of it since the rounds also affected his testicular area and prostate.
I still see him for therapy and he is an overall nice guy, its a shame he was caught up on that since he is ruined for life. Thus proving 22LR as an effective round when used properly.
I forgot to mention, no exit wound whatsoever. Mind you he is 6 2 and 150lbs
god damn, foreheads need to be part of terminal ballistics testing
44 Magnum
This is my favorite story by far and one of the patient who is more than willing to show pictures and even has the round with him.
>Patient is a 46 year old Hispanic male
>According to him, he was in his car hanging out with a friend of his.
>He was in the drivers side and the friend on the passenger side
>Car was a 1998 corolla
>Round went through the vehicle into patient through his stomach, with an exit wound through his right shoulder.
>Fragments are still inside his body thus causing him perpetual pain on low back and difficulty walking for long periods of time
>Round also completely destroyed about 9 inches of his large intestines I believe and he was forced to get a complete reconstruction of the area as soon as it happened.
>Patient is about 6 3 and at the time according to him weight about 250lbs
>No other follow up shots where made since the shooter got scared and left the scene
This is one of the stories that still baffles me since I love 44Mag and its always been seen as the bear killer and the go to round for large game. I am actually still waiting to see what kind of round was used since he doesn't know and cannot give me a proper description of it since he is also now suffering from severe mental issues from the incident years later. I have a feeling it was a hollow point round since the round penetrated the vehicle but not his friend that was on the passenger side.
what about 357 and 44 magnum?
I carried these calibers often.
thanks user!
I have another head shot involving 380 ACP which I am going to write right now!!!
> Patient is a 50 something year old african american woman (I forgot her exact age )
>Back when she was younger she was a hooker and a drug dealer during the crack epidemic
>Tried to leave her pimp so pimp shot her point blank on top of the head with a 380ACP
>Full metal jacket rounds where used and according to her at the time she was wearing a long heavy weave
>She said she doesn't remember anything and according to witnesses that saw the incident they said she was still conscious , crying and screaming when it happened
>She then fell into a coma apparently and was brought back twice since she literally died twice from trauma.
>Coma lasted for about 2 weeks in which she regained consciousness and now has severe excruciating left leg pain that we always work on when she is here.
>Now has a huge metal plate on her skull and asides from pain she is now prone to bipolar bouts and according to her she thinks the round damaged a part of her brain in which controls her emotional state or in my opinion ..could be the heavy drug use she had.
Im still wondering where the severe leg pain comes from, I think the round damaged some type of cervical nerve as well that is radiating through her spine and into her leg. Either way, I had a case while working at the ER this one is a little different
>16 year old african american male
>I don't know the whole story but he was shot 3 times center mass by a relative
>He was about 5 7 and possibly around 160Lbs
>Died a few minutes later from massive blood loss and a collapse lung
>rounds used where FMJ 380ACP
380ACP is a deadly round. After the last incident I would definitely trust my life on it although it would not be my first choice.
>Thus proving 22LR as an effective round when used properly.
>38SPL is a good round if it was used properly, perhaps on a center mass shot with a good round , a good shooter and a good revolver he would be dead by now.
This is the fundamental mistake OP makes.
An effective round is the round that puts down a threat, lethally.
These two calibers, rated by OP as effective, managed to A) NOT KILL A MAN BY A HEADSHOT B) NOT KILL A MAN BY 10 ROUNDS THAT NOBODY REMOVED.
This is explicitly not effective in any sort of scenario. The people had their lives ruined, but they're alive to tell the tale and if they were fighting back with their own firearm in reasonable caliber, hopped up on adrenaline, their attacker would be fucking dead.
Sadly I never seen or heard any cases involving .25ACP , possibly because its a hard to find round and most of the demographics in my area are usually low income african american, puerto rican or irish males. I do however have a patient who was shot with 32 ACP
>Patient is a 28 year old hispanic male
>About 5 5 and a little on the heavy side, possibly about 200 to 210 lbs
> I am not sure the specific but he was shot 4 times with 32ACP
>He was shot center mass but none of the rounds hit the heart
>Only one round had an exit wound which was his right gluts
>All rounds where extracted and he now just has severe pain from the incident but to be honest, he seems perfectly healthy to me asides from the usual pains and aches from the incident.
>Regular ROM on all limbs and no changes on his ADLs
>He is a pill popper so perhaps the drugs and pills help him cope.
32ACP is a round i would not recommend.
I guess my definition of lethal is different than yours. I base on the fact that both of them were completely out of the fight and incapacitated afterwards, sometimes death doesn't mean lethal, putting down the thread instantly its all you need and both where completely lights out after being shot with both calibers. Of course, i would not compared the reliability of both vs lets say...9mm or 40SW but if thats all you have or what you choose to carry or feel comfortable carrying then they would completely knock the fuck out an assailant.
this is why prefer bullets that reach 16"+ of ballistic gel. Over penetration is worth it.
10 shots all impacting and not killing the man is a bust.
A headshot that failed to even touch the brain is a bust.
If you shoot worse, you're toast. If opponent is stronger than some nig or some basedboy on a date, you're toast.
If lead overdose does not kill your target, it's a bad round.
If precise shot placement does not kill your target, it's a bad round.
So here's the question, in what kind of tactical situation, used in what sort of way, are these two rounds effective? What are they effective for?
I can shoot an assailant with taser or spray pepper into their eyes, it wont kill them but it just might disable them if they're weak enough. This is not an effective tactic in defense, especially against other firearms.
This could be colored by your military time as well. Incapacitated means something a bit different there, whereas in super close quarters self defense, only a dead man can't lift a revolver and empty it generally in your direction and you catch a few more rounds.
Also, I would imagine proximity to medical assistance changes the game, right? "Lethal" could still very much be less than, if there's a fully equipped trauma center 5 minutes away. Generally speaking, if you make it to a hospital, you'll live. Maybe not for long. And maybe not well. But there's a lot of shit we can fix that isn't possible in other countries/a warzone.
It's kinda funny how many people think 12" is supposed to be optimum, rather than the absolute minimum.
45GAP
This is the only gucci around case I ever seen but amazing nonetheless, for some time my state police was issuing these so i ended up seeing an interesting case involving its use.
>Patient was a 32 year old white male
>Was stopped by state police for speeding
>Driver instantly got out of his vehicle and was carrying a gun with him
>Automatically troopers fired at him twice center mass
>Was then taken to the ER and died instantly from his wounds due to severe blood loss while on his way to the hospital.
>We tried reviving him a few times after the rounds where extracted since none of them touch the heart or lung for that matter
>Doctor gave up and just pronounced him death on the scene
I don't know how i feel about this specific case and desu it was one of the last patients for my shift so i was a bit tired and overworked but i remember specifically thinking why didn't 45GAP penetrated his heart since the rounds that where used where HP and the trooper had a good grouping from what i remember. EIther way, it did only take him two shots to completely neutralize him which makes 45GAP an effective round that is no longer in use in my state anymore due to how expensive it is.
This is why you always double tap
With an FBI Load he'd be a gone pecan.
I'm starting to get the sense that ballistics testing is all bullshit, and that accurately mag dumping is the only viable tactic. Just replace their heart with lead.
I have a question for you myself. Why don't you get the fuck outta my thread you motherfucking doublenigger?
cartridge type is of less importance to
>what diameter
>what speed
>what bullet make and model
45 would have done the same thing if loaded to those same criteria.
This is my thread now you gormless hack, how do you like that?!
Damn thought it was a better round. Im guessing that there are also no cases on the 10mm
GIH!
any .223 or .222 case?
You're right about that hence why we have definition of what is lethal and what isn't. Either way, if the target gets knocked down and is completely done then he might as well as be dead. Any other follow up shot if it's a self defense scenario could potentially do lead to a bad court case.
That's what I'm thinking, I know she didn't use +P ammunition, otherwise he would not be alive right now. I personally carry 38SPL with +P Hornady Critical but my reasoning for carrying is different than how effective it is. I guess it goes back to this very important point, all guns and all calibers are deadly if used by the right shooter and hitting the right parts.
Well, ballistic testing is just gel..you have to take other things in consideration such as, clothing, angles , velocity , body shape, body mass, fat mass etc. That's why I actually enjoy seeing Paul Harrels videos because the meat target, although silly in nature, is a very effective way of showing the damage that certain rounds can do.
Oh for sure, unfortunately I cannot ask all the specifics because 9/10 they have no idea what was used and the shooters also don't care what they use anyway. I'm basing this mostly on caliber and even gun type if available.
Not .222 but I definitely have alot of experience with .223 and 5.56 since its obviously what we used overseas. I'm not going to write a complete green text on that one since there is so fucking many...but .223 and 5.56 are deadly if used by the right person by using the two to the chest one to the head method. You can easily see the New Zealand video as proof of the effectiveness of the round, mind you that the round we use overseas (the one with the metal steel point, i forget the nomenclature) is actually harder to patch up according to the medics I spoke with before.
No unfortunately no 10mm stories mostly because most of the population here has probably never even heard of the caliber.
once again, other factors have to be taken in consideration when talking about over penetration and effectiveness. That's why I carry 38SPL because I know its capabilities and I know what I can get out of it given the fact that if I ever have to use it , it would be on this scenario.
>close up the clinic
>clinic is in a shit infested area full of junkies and drug dealers
>group of druggies try to mug me
>while they're jumping me I can reach out to my pocket and fire at close range
heres another scenario..
>close up the clinic late at night
>group of drug dealers try to start shit
>Nigga moment ensues
>guy comes up close to me and either pulls out a knife or a gun at very very close range
>can discreetly fire my .38SPL from my pocket while pretending to reach out to my wallet
I know the round and I have better and more reliable guns but in my situation, from where I live , work and the situations I would be involved with, a revolver would work for me over a Glock 19 or my CZP09, I also take in consideration the stigma behind the round since unfortunately I live in a cuck city so I also have to make sure what would look good in court asides from ..white man shoots innocent poor black teenager.
>because the meat target, although silly in nature, is a very effective way of showing the damage that certain rounds can do.
Yea, because if anything shows what a bullet is going to do to your insides, its a watermelon.
Youd be surprised how similar and fragile our insides are after the entire chest cavity is penetrated. If you get a chance, YouTube a video on dissecting a human body or Google images or pictures of internal organs. I've seen first hand how fragile lung tissue is, its alot more delicate than a watermelon.
Ive cut open more than a few mammals over the years, while lung tissue is fairly fragile it stretches very well, and just about everything else in the thoracic cavity from bronchioles and arteries to large blood bearing organs(namely the heart) is waaaay tougher than lungs. Comparatively watermelon is entirely inelastic and non compressible, vastly exaggerating the effects of temporary stretch cavity. Using watermelon for as a stand in for the internal organs in general is misleading at best, your average joe who doesn't know any better sees a fist sized hole in that and expects a fist sized hole in a perps chest cavity, when that simply isn't going to happen. Realistically the only structures that are going to be relevant in terms of actually stopping a gunfight are going to be the heart, major blood vessels, CNS, or weight bearing bone, and all of these are about as different as you can get from a watermelon.
.25 has astoundingly poor penetration. .22lr noticably out performs it, as does .32 acp
To quote a clever user that replied to me the other day, .32 acp is an "ear, nose, and throat specialist". Penetration through muscle and bone is not its strong suit at all.
+p+ hard cast lead .38s are pretty wack too desu. Not so great if you have to shoot through a car tho.
Did you jump to the wrong timeline friend? Reagan died 23 years later of pneumonia
I carry it because if I ever have to use my conceal carry , I'm gonna use it up close and personal since most niggers here like to jump you in groups.
.22lr for seld defence wow imagine being this retarded
Okay guys I can now continue my stories since I'm home
20GA
>patient was a 21 year old white Male
>breaking and entering heroin addict
>based house resident heard noise
>shot him point blank with a 20GA buckshot
>calls the police and ambulance
>dude was in a complete state of shock and was losing blood rapidly in the ICU
>Last I heard from the cop that took him (it's usually the same cops since it's the same ER hospital and the same cops patrol the same AO) he died afterwards
to those wondering ..the based home owner didn't get any charges against him since the guy was on parole and in recovery when it happened, must've relapsed and wanted to make quick cash for an easy fix.
20GA was effective in this scenario and unfortunately I dont know the full details of the case but I was amazed to see it work.
and my last one for today
357Mag
>Patient was an African American Male 17 years of age
>she said , he said drama
>Guy shot him 3 times center mass with 357Mag HP rounds
>Guy came directly to the ER
>As soon as we got him to a bed the doctor took his vitals and was pronounced dead basically 15 minutes after he got in.
>his entire chest cavity was opened like a sunflower
>putrid smell I'll never forget
>exit wounds where two on his lumbrosacral area and another on the right scapula which was completely shattered.
I will never stop having 357Mag on my night stand, truly one of the most disturbing things I've ever seen.
My buddie is here talking about how he got shot in his right shin with a 38spc hollow point. He has some gnarly scars but he walks without any issue.
Wouldn’t trust it
fill a water balloon up with a cheap ballistic gel substitute
I'm hesistent to be hard on an actual contributing user, but you were 'amazed' 20g buckshot, point blank, was lethal?
9mm
>patient complained of stinging sensation on chest
>suspect possible insect bites or bee stings
>ask him to remove shirt
>multiple GSWs all over torso
>remove 15 9mm bullets embedded in patient's skin, some even left nasty bruises
>suspect he did this to himself for oxys
>prescribe him 800mg ibuprofen and kick him out of the ER
Overall would not recommend
bump