I need help identifying my Grandpa's old cap and ball smooth bore musket. He found it sometime in the 1940s along some railroad tracks in a field in Iowa. My grandma had it appraised a long time ago but we are trying to find the paperwork so I'll post it if she finds it.
Here are some pics with what I think to be the markings. The overall length is 55" but it looks like someone cut it down from a longer length.
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Butt stock brand
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Butt stock plate
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Receiver stamps
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bump
Bump cause I have one too with similiar stampings. Will post pics in a bit.
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And it was also found under mysterious circumstances in Iowa, near the border to Nebraska between Souix City and Omaha somewhere.
my Google-fu is failing me user
Those are definitely proofs from someplace that had royalty whose name began with W circa 1845
There's an ooooold Gun Jesus video where he explains a bunch of proof marks to an audience in a classroom/seminar type of setting. I feel like the stamp with the crown might have been in it.
At first I thought it may be the French M1842 but there are several similar muskets with that distonctove front barrel band in Italy and Frussia in eg 1830-40 e.g. the Russian .709 inch percussion musket, Model 1845 which is basically a copy of the French model. That distinctive front muzzle barrel band and the way the lock slopes back into the grip.That does not line up with your cartouche though (although the year does). Sorry I can be more helpful, Its not British or Prussian
It kinda looks like this. An old Prussian flint lock musket that was converted to percussion.
There are a couple differences, like the butt plate doesn't look like it wraps around the same way.
invaluable.com
Okay, found only one European ruler in 1845 whose name began with "W"
en.wikipedia.org
On the other hand, that mark also looks similar to a German one
Well, this other user just blew my Prussian theory out of the water.
OK OP. I think that's a
Belgian M-1851 Saxon Percussion Musket and the crown over W is for Wallendorf . They were sold into the US for the civil war
But I may be wrong
So I should be looking outside the US? The crown was already leading that way but this is good to know.
I found a couple pages of proof marks from the link below. There is a very similar mark with a W and crown but google only pulls up German shotguns from Suhl from 1950
>Belgian M-1851 Saxon Percussion Musket
What doses everyone else think?
Oh shit Satan I think you found it, or maybe a successor since this has proofs that are 6 years younger if M-1851 is anything to go by Thanks a lot fren
Its not a proof mark. The proof mark is on the barrel, that stamp is not a proof mark is an armoury/state/unit stock cartouche denoting acceptance into service, Maybe Saxony?
To add to the barrel bands are slightly different so I'm pretty sure my mystery gun is a predecessor to the Belgian M-1851.
Ok that makes sense
praise Satan!
I may be wrong user, but you are in the right zone, there were a lot of percussion uskets inspired by the French 42. However note the lack of a sight on the saxon 51 and yours....barrel band clips are on the correct side, similar lock curving back into the grip, French style front muzzle band descended from the 1777 French muskets, much in common with the French 42, Russian 45 and several others used by Italian and other states. That crown over W is used by a manufacturer of crockery in Wallendorf Saxony. Was there an armoury there?
I praise Christ. Go away karl.
>That crown over W is used by a manufacturer of crockery in Wallendorf Saxony
Maybe Wurttemberg Kingdom
"Between 20,000 and 30,000 thousand Malherbe Model 1851 and 1857 "Saxon" or "Dresden" rifles were imported for the ACW. " from a thread here
civilwartalk.com
>And it was also found under mysterious circumstances in Iowa, near the border to Nebraska between Souix City and Omaha somewhere.
"This is a truly outstanding example of one of the more rarely encountered imported long arms used during the American Civil War. Just under 29,000 Saxon or Dresden rifles & rifle muskets were imported by the US during the war, with Union purchasing agent George Schuyler obtaining 27,055 for the US government in Dresden and the balance of 1,740 being purchased by Marcellus Hartley. These guns are instantly identifiable in period images due to their distinctive double-strapped middle barrel band. According to ordnance records, the gun came in two models, the M-1851 with a 37.125” barrel and the M-1857 with a 40.25” barrel. The ordnance records only specifically refer to 236 of Hartley’s purchases being of the Short Dresden Rifle variety. Existing examples of the shorter rifle are very rarely encountered. Interestingly, the Dresden rifle was one of the very few European imports rated as “First Class’ by the Ordnance Department. US Ordnance records show that these guns were issued 44th & 55th Illinois, 9th Iowa, 22nd & 30th Wisconsin and the 56th Ohio infantry. This is one of those rarely encountered M-1851 rifles with the shorter barrel. The guns were the product of PJ Malherbe & Cie of Liege and are all marked with his maker name on the rear of the back action lock, behind the hammer. Both the M-1851 & the M-1857 had .58 caliber bores, rifled with four grooves and had a rear site with a fixed 200 yard block and two flip-up site leaves that were calibrated for 400 and 600 yards, respectively."
collegehillarsenal.com
....
" However, I have now owned three M-1851’s and one M-1857 Saxon rifle that were marked with the same 62 (and I have seen one other M-1857 with the same mark). This ruled out the rack number theory and makes me believe that this gun was actually issued to the 62 Illinois Infantry. According to ordnance records, the 62nd is listed as initially carrying French and Belgian Muskets. Since these rifles were produced in Belgium and had a French style back action lock, it is very possible that they were simply misidentified by the officers issuing and recording the status of the arms issued to the 62nd Illinois. We know that the ordnance officers were notorious for grouping many similar types of arms together in reports, often identifying them incorrectly in the process.."
OP here, thanks boys I've got a pretty good idea about where this came from now
1863 trapdoor