Let's say global civil war happens tomorrow...

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Right, until the people you're shooting at have decent body armor and you're just stinging them as they're throwing a larger caliber back your way. This thread says "civil war", not snipe unprepared morons.

how much rural people have ARs? i have an AR but i live in a city.

>just stinging
lol, you might not kill them, true, but body armor isn’t like when doc got shot in back to the future.

I need a round to hit someone and stop them, period. I don't need to be playing cowboys shooting back and forth all day. Give me the larger round. I'll pop a few off and get the fuck out of there.

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>Even with body armor that caliber is going to drop whoever you are shooting at
the only rounds that are going to do this reliably are huge magnum rifle rounds like .338 lapua. I dont know where this
>the sheer force of the round will knock em dead
meme comes from
youtu.be/o5f1Fo4r4_I?t=130
youtube.com/watch?v=Ji5VpHaNySw

l m a o
m
a
o

If the plate wearer's adrenaline is up, he won't even notice.

Nobody, not even trained soldiers are effectively returning fire after being hit. Not even while wearing body armor.

Muh 5.56 just designed to wound
muh .308 god round
Urban will be 5.56 because shit will be fucking close and I'd rather be able to follow up then try to re-acquire constantly
If you get out of the city, .308 and up becomes a necessity

I dont know why I bother because you say the videos are fake or some shit and ignore all evidence that disagrees with you but see the videos in

False.

Source: firsthand experience. Some people don't even feel it while they're bleeding allover the place. Some drop and assume they're dead when it didn't even pass their armor.

Bullets aren't magnetized to home in on plates only. Plates cover less than 18% of the body, and none of the parts exposed while prone or shooting around a corner.

IRL, you pierce armor by shooting more bullets, not bigger, not to hammer thru, but to eventually randomly hit unarmored parts.

>some people freak out so other people...won't freak out?

I don't know if you even know what you're saying

more evidence that getting shot in the armor doesnt have magical effects because the basic laws of physics still exist
youtube.com/watch?v=6x59iN4KMz4

Here's it happening in real life.
youtube.com/watch?v=c-UNFSZ8VKU
I'm telling you I've personally, firsthand, seen both happen. It's almost like different people react differently to things. I honestly don't know how to dumb it down a little more for you, could you try smartening yourself up instead?

Indeed.

To answer OP directly, after Sandy Vagina I whittled my options down to .22 LR, 12 gauge, .223, and 30-06. All are plentiful, all are comparatively cheap, and between them you can do absolutely everything. If forced to pick one, I'd pick the .223, because between me and Lee and Nosler I can create one hell of a hunting load for it.

But yeah. The biggest difficulty we face in SHTF is maintaining roadblocks to let locals and friends and delivery trucks through and keep the hordes of screaming assholes -- many of whom are ideologically predisposed to hate you, and just as many of whom are not Americans by birth and will revert to the same kind of steal-rape-rob-with-impunity behavior they indulged in at home (yes spics, I am talking about you) -- the hell out of our homes.

Cool here's someone who isn't prepared getting shot. Look at the difference. He's perfectly fine ,yet he drops immediately.

>.308 armor piercing rounds won't pierce most civilian available body armors
Wtf are you babbling about?

His point is that .308 will not just drop anyone because you hit them. There's a significant chance that they either don't realize they're shot or think it did more than it did, making the point of .308 being an end-all problem solver moot

>Here's it happening in real life
the other videos are real life too, what you're linking is the reaction to being shot, not the force of the round literally knocking someone down, see

Go back to COD kid.

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Generic level 4 will stop worse. ESAPIs and modern civilian level 4 will do even better.

308 is no better at piercing plates than 5.56, but it has 30% less rounds and a lot more recoil to try hitting the uncovered flesh around them.

do I really need to dig up a video of some dude getting shot 5 times by police and still advancing? Its almost like its your reaction to getting shot that determines if you fall on the ground or not and
>their mental reaction
is not a reliable thing because it varies from person to person

spics, niggers, sand niggers will all be "hands out" and ready to kill you without a moment's notice

>Let the cities burn.
thats raycist

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>the other videos are real life too
No, they're testing scenarios and do not reflect the reality of combat in any way.
>not the force of the round literally knocking someone down
No shit. I said nobody returns fire effectively after being hit. Not even trained soldiers. The round doesn't have to knock you off your feet for you to no longer be able to return fire. You dropping works too.

But I'm sure you're a cooler dude than me and you'll just eat five 5.56 right to the sternum and keep returning 110% accurate fire in exchange like it's airsoft.

>308 is no better at piercing plates than 5.56
You are so full of shit it's insane. It literally presents TWICE the delivery power.

It also depends on what plate you're talking about
Yeah, his comment was dumb with it "not being better", but both will easily be stopped by level 4, maybe 3+(+) (depending on manufacturer)

>It literally presents TWICE the delivery power.
Unless you have AP 7.62, means nothing. Look at how much force a shotgun slug has some time. Any plate will stop it.

2x not enough is no different than 1x not enough if neither penetrates.

Show me footage of black tip 308 piercing level 4.

>No, they're testing scenarios and do not reflect the reality of combat in any way.
yeah im sure everyone will hilariously fall apart and become completely useless after receiving a push that is equivalent in force to an AR firing to the plate on their chest.
>The round doesn't have to knock you off your feet for you to no longer be able to return fire
so its not the round physically knocking them over by your own admission so what is it then? Clearly a psychological stop, which is completely unreliable.
>but the dude in the 1-2 examples I have stopped

>do I really need to dig up a video of some dude getting shot 5 times by police and still advancing?
Which one? If you're fighting armored PCP niggers who have ARs, you've got bigger problems than your choice of caliber.

>Civil war
So i get to fight in a city environment. Just get a shotgun and be sure to shot first. Almost all city persons shot like niggers and possibly undertrained. I yet need to see somebody in a bodyarmor tank a 12g to the chest

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It was literally said earlier in this thread armor piercing rounds jackass. Green tip .308 is going to take down essentially any civilian armor out there.

>Green tip .308 is going to take down essentially any civilian armor out there.

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No
Lol
level 4 won't give a shit about green .308

>im sure everyone will hilariously fall apart and become completely useless after receiving a push that is equivalent in force to an AR firing to the plate on their chest.
Not everyone, but you definitely will.
>so its not the round physically knocking them over by your own admission so what is it then?
Yeah, cause I never said it would. This is what we call a strawman argument-you're arguing a point I did not make, and then when you come out victorious, act like you wont the argument.
>Clearly a psychological stop, which is completely unreliable.
Until it becomes a physical stop when they take a round to the pelvic girdle. Standing around and returning fire while taking rounds is a BAD IDEA. IF your idea is to airsoft it up and tank rounds like a videogame, you will die. End of discussion.

Strong argument there. Oh wait, you don't have an argument to the truth I just presented. .308 armor piercing rounds are going to drop most civilian armors. Case closed.

Are you retarded?

The very definition of civilian level 4 is stopping .30-06 AP.

Are YOU retarded? When did you decide that every civilian was going to be wearing level 4 armor? I've said "most" body armors several times, but you're too fucking stupid to read. The .308 has more stopping and penetrating power than the 5.56. Period. You can't argue that you fucking jackass.

Hi user, he specifically said at piercing plates. Do YOU have AP 7.62? You do not. That's what I thought. So it is of no benefit to you. We are also discussing plates, so don't try to bring up the idea that soft armor is more common than plates-from the start the argument was restricted to plates and straw-manning won't work.

.308 is not piercing ANY rifle plates on the market. AP 7.62 is not piercing level IV.

>which one
policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/
heres an unarmored guy that continues to run, shoot, reload, take cover, and return fire while being struck 14 times in the process
>Not everyone
thats my entire point
>Until it becomes a physical stop when they take a round to the pelvic girdle
no shit
> IF your idea is to airsoft it up and tank rounds like a videogame, you will die
its ironic that you talk about a strawman then say this. Literally all im arguing is this point
and the idea that
>>Even with body armor that caliber (308) is going to drop whoever you are shooting at
isnt always true. I dont know where you're getting this other shit from

wow.

>Green tip .308 is going to take down essentially any civilian armor out there.
Essentially any implies almost every
Surprising a lot of people who would be at a peer level with you will have 4's, so I'd be concerned

>muh armor
why are you guys planing on standing in front of bullets? this isnt gay shit like iraq where dumbshits just stand around waiting to be shot while jody fucks his wife and beats his son.

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Good point. I forgot that 308 can't even pen level 3 armor, never mind 3+ or 3++.

Anyone planning on piercing armor needs 338, or (if you're lucky and they have shit armor) 300 Win Mag with AP.

We're not. Armor is because you can't plan for everything.

Honestly this
Armor should be a failsafe more than anything

The plate, assuming it can take it, would probably block 1 shot. But the guy behind it wouldn't be interested in fighting anymore.

>its ironic that you talk about a strawman then say this. Literally all im arguing is this point
Incorrect. You responded to me saying
>Nobody, not even trained soldiers are effectively returning fire after being hit.
You for some reason took this to mean I believe they will be physically blown over, as evidenced in this post:
>I dont know why I bother because you say the videos are fake or some shit and ignore all evidence that disagrees with you but see the videos in
Indicating your disagreement with my statement.

So which is it? Do you disagree or not? Can you effectively return fire while actively being shot? If no, then stop responding. The argument was over before it began.

If yes, you disagree, you're wrong. You'll take a hit or two to the armor, then die.

>Can you effectively return fire while actively being shot?
see the article in
also
>en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_courthouse_shooting
man continues to fire and kill his shooter after being struck in the armor
>North Hollywood shootout
go ahead and disagree with real world examples

I'd just go to some lofty climb and ponder as to how everything got so bad.

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>effectively returning fire after being hit.
changes to
>effectively return fire while actively being shot
moving the goalposts.

12ga

At a distance you're fucked

People keep talking about armor, lol. In a civil war no one has armor. Lol. Some do, sure, like 1% of the population... This thread is answered the same as every other thread. Use what you got, buy what you want. Just don't be surprised if you can't get your hands on any 6.5 Grendel when you go to the store or link up with some fellow warriors. 556, 9mm will be in supply bc that's what the factories will be cranking out for the military in a time of war. Don't like 556 or 9mm? Buy what you want carry what you got the govt doesn't care if you approve of their choice in munitions

>man continues to fire and kill his shooter after being struck in the armor
Important to note he was struck with a pistol round, something you'll see in almost all of these cases, bar one I know of. It is also worth noting he was hit once by Wilson. Another factor you'll see in common with all of them is they happen at very close range.

These are things you generally won't be seeing in combat. Point blank ranges, pistol calibers which are significantly less effective, and you having a ready idea of where your shooter is. And if not, them being in your immediate vicinity.

So, you are correct. I will revise my statement. Unless you're at point blank range, you will not be able to effectively return fire. At that kind of close range, you really have no choice as dropping will just see you dead on the ground. You might also get lucky and just get shot once in the back by an ineffective round instead of magdumped into.

But I wouldn't count on that.

I see no difference here. We're still discussing 5.56 vs 7.62 correct? Unless you're using a bolt action 5.56, you better not just be firing one shot.

>I see no difference here
>effectively returning fire after being hit.
could be getting hit and quickly returning fire after while
>effectively return fire while actively being shot
sounds like tying to return fire literally as the rounds are tearing into you. Theres a difference there imo.

>global
>civil war
ignoring how retarded your question is, .223 is plenty for the 99% of unarmored fighters in cities because explosives exist.

>global civil war

i don't think you know what the term civil war actually means

I'd shoot people in the dick. All hail Butters.

A war against globohomo gayplex would be a global civil war.

>global civil war
What do you mean by this?

>Global civil war
>Global
>Civil

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Pretty much this. In any major HAPPENING I'd just die. I'd try to find my loved ones and stuff but yeah. I'd just die without trying too hard. I like the comforts a not HAPPENING life affords me.

>globohomo gayplex
Wut

It would be war between globalists, a small rootless international clique that act like a separate nation of their own that govern what are merely economic zones rather than real countries to them, against the nationalists who also already network globally to oppose them.

>5.56 is as low as you can go in weight without sacrificing the minimum threshold of range and damage.
it really is mostly about getting acceptable performance to around 500 yards and being able to carry a lot of bang.
With the newer, heavy fragmenting bullets: ranges goes even further and theyre arguably more lethal than m80 ball

I was getting mad scrolling through the responses and was about to say the same.
emphasis on
>.308 is not piercing ANY rifle plates on the market. AP 7.62 is not piercing level IV.
Youre not shooting through any plates. The only people who wear soft armor are security gaurds and cops and even some of them choose to wear plates. When was the last time youve seen someone post soft armor with no plate next to their gun here?

Umm buddy 308 ap steel core has trouble getting through level 3 plates. The tungsten core makes it through 3 most of the time but is stopped cold a minimum of 3 rounds for level 4

5.56 because captured ammo is a thing inna civil war. Same for 12g scattergun shells, 9mm, .45, .38sp, etc.

Ideally you would have a choice of rifles, handguns, and shotguns in multiple calibers so you can shoot any ammo you get.

The most popular ammo is higher value in trade situations. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY will be concerned with ballistics, fps, muzzle velocity, and all the other shit we obsess over during SHTF or civil war.

If it goes bang and fits the gun, it's valuable.

Absolutely Savage

Handloaded tungsten .308 rounds, while illegal to manufacture, can penetrate. Notable that .30 cal 30-06 bullets are compatable with the .308 case and that 30-06 AP ammo is perfectly legal... would be a shame if someone made some...

All low IQ low empathy nonwhites are gonna act this way. Niggers and spics are not your friends.

I live in rural Northern Idaho and most people with guns have ARs too but just as a toy

Pretty sure he's referring to some sort of left/right dichotomy. Possibly a white / anti white war as well.

>This thread says "civil war", not snipe unprepared morons.
That's exactly what's going to happen in a civil war. Do you think we're going to revert back to line infantry?

m.youtube.com/watch?v=G_IizYI2f5E
Based retard.
This is a $200 plate btw, not even top tier.

Nice

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It would be interesting to see what non military people choose as armor in a war like this.

wat

I say .308 for the long run.
>can carry more 5.56
People who engage in suppressing fire/volume tactics are more likely to get shot than a hidden marksman. Shooting at everything also makes you a target.
The precision shooter with minimal interaction will survive longer.
5.56 has an edge, but it depends on the goals. Are you putting down mobs armed primarily with handguns and shotguns? AR might not be bad.

But I personally feel that I would outlast many operators simply by finding a good vantage point with sufficient cover (and maybe a buddy with an AR to watch my back) to pick them off. The armored operators that run out with their ARs and do their drills may demonstrate valiance, but they will also be more likely to die.
Some of yall need to take your guerrilla warfare up a notch.
Not making yourself a target>18% body armor

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6.5 creedmore > .308