Meme's aside about cost, what does Jow Forums think of this? Will it end up a god-tier SMG like the MP5 or UZI?

Well back in the day we had good looking stuff...

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>largest civilian gun market
>we don't have an attractive, modern PCC
What happened to us burgers?

Vector is also a complete meme

>seething this hard

Looks like another cookie cutter PDW that'll get overlooked and forgotten about in less than five years. The only thing that's going to unseat the MP5 is a gun that looks and acts the same way at half the weight. Bonus points if it uses the same magazines.

Simplifying logistics and opening your product to a wider aftermarket gets you more money tho

Stop being such a poorfag.

Are you seriously implying that glock magazines are better than dedicated SMG magazines? Are you delusional?

I thought the meme action works alright in full auto? It’s just a complete pointless in civilian semi auto.

Most of us just use rifles instead of trying to cheap out with pistol ammo for long guns.

Looks like some used the "smear" tool in PS on a tec-9, fuck that

so is the federal government and ?

No, MP5 is actually delayed blowback instead of a square swiss STEN that uses Glock mags.
And the Uzi was cheap and "relatively" compact for barrel length

The B&T is a fucking MAC10, but as long as an UZI, with the barrel length of an MP5k, and the price tag of an MP5SD

The MP5 is actually roller delayed blowback. I wouldn't be such a dick about it, but you compare it to the STEN. Give the APC9 some credit, at least it fires from a closed bolt.

The price does not make sense though... I read 2.5 mil for 350, so per each unit thats around 7k. Obviously that would have to include, mags, parts, all that bullshit, because no way in fuck is that thing worth 7 grand. Still though, that does seem a bit much for a relatively small number of machine pistols

As much as I like the MP5, it’s ergos are limited.

I said it was delayed blowback m80

I agree, I was being facetious about the STEN comparison, but it's disturbing how little of an exaggeration it is.
IIRC the $7k includes an optic and suppressor so meh, the gun is coming out to around $2k per unit, so civilian price for the BT 9mm ""pistols"" which is still bullshit

The barrel length is the worst part, literally pistol length barrel.

The VZ61 and Uzi figured out a telescoping bolt 60 years ago, what the fuck are these Swiss-niggers doing.

They should've went with H&K's SMG II when they could, yeah it's the exact same action than the APC (and I'm 100% sure B&T got
heavily inspired by the SMG II for making the APC since they fucking own multiple units of the SMG II, as you can see them in B&T headquarters in MAC's video on them) but it actually has an interesting feature as opposed to the APC, it's that you could easily swap on a suppressor that would go over the barrel and switch a lever on the handguard to basically have an MP5 SD with updated ergos and controls. Even though those features would not be of much use to the infantry. And that's why they should just stay with the MP5. The infantry doesn't need the features of the APC.

>Will it end up a god-tier SMG like the MP5 or UZI?
Both of those are grossly outdated designs, so I'm guessing you're referring to long-term influence? No, it'll probably be great, but it brings nothing notable to the table and will be lost to the sands of history like all those South American and European Uzi derivatives nobody keeps track of. Only thing that will solidify it is having a major incident tied to it, like the Iranian embassy for the MP5; but that seems unlikely since any circumstance involving MPs will as reasonably involve M4s rather than SMGs.

works good in BSM so I don't give a fuck what it's like irl

Yeah user, inr*ngetv told me that double stack single feed mags are bad! That's why Glocks, HK, Sig, S&W all jam all the time!

Is the mp5 really outdated? The uzi is, with an open bolt imo. But as far as 9mm smg's go, i don't think the MP5 is outdated. It's a simple robust design, accurate, and i believe hk makes railed versions for all the modern doodads and such.

HK makes them in 9mm and .40, with last round bolt hold open, AR style bolt release, integrated low profile rails, ambi controls, etc...

It's almost like there's a difference between 15 round and 32 round mags

I've got an APC-9, but the full length version, not the shorty. Its design is nothing special, it's just a blowblack 9mm. That said, it's quality of manufacture is far better than any of its competitors. Does that matter from a military standpoint? Probably not. The Sten was famously reliable and it's the exact opposite in terms of build quality.

Did not know they added a bho... that's pretty cool.

But yeah... with all that, I don't see how people say it's outdated.

>glawk 18 magazines are unreliable
really bro?

I think a lot of people choose words poorly. They say "outdated" when they really mean "old". Old isn't necessarily outdated.

That's true, but I think we both know that state agencies and military organizations stick with what they know.
>Is the mp5 really outdated?
I don't know if I'd call it outdated but it is certainly an aging design.

Bill Blowers on yt has a great video about the MP5s limitations, worth a watch. For the time it served it was fantastic but nothing is perfect and many improvements have been made to several designs since then.
Video might be on the p&s channel.

Unless they are selling these at a loss the CZ scorpion micro would have been a cheaper quality option

Although the mags would need to be switched to something sturdier than the plastic ones they ship with

Cliff notes? Is he talking about the modernized MP5 with the optics rail, BHO, railed handguard, and ambidextrous controls? Or the "I know this is the 40 year old model but let me use it to tell you why a 2019 MP5 is shit" argument.

Yes.

This, if it ain't broken.
And especially for something to be used in the exact same capacity.

But the APC has a buffer, its a game-changer.

He is talking about the basic method of operation and problems he has run into using them at work, I haven't watch it in a hot minute.
youtu.be/UKlcqwtFdmE

I like memes, they’re fun

Why go with this when you could go with a SBR in 300 BLK? Substantially more range and power with supersonic ammo, almost as quiet with subs, and super compact with ar 15 ergonomics. Or is adding another caliber that much of a PITA for logistics?

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>2000$ for a 9mm machine pistol
Holy shit.

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The logistics PITA plus the risk of dip shit grunts slamming .300 blk into an M4 chamber and fucking up their gun.

Fair point. In that case, I'd go with a SBR in 556 instead of this thing. Maybe with a short suppressor or blast shield to protect everyone's ears. I don't see the point of PCC's, especially when you're restricted to FMJ ammo.

Is that a right side charging handle? Is it ambi?
If not wtf? Mikhail wouldn't even do that in 2019.

its ambi.

Space reduction. 60rds of 9mm in mags takes up the equivalent of 30rds of 556, no to mention the overall package of B&T is still way smaller than any SBR 556 out there.

Hmm. Good points.

Basically
>the fire selector is too small and too high
And
>no bho

So pretty much.

Nice, so both things HK fixed two fucking decades ago.

I think aging might even be a stretch. It's a younger design than the ubiquitous ar15, and none of the newer 9mm smg's spit 9mm any differently or more efficiently etc... It still maintains a decent size to weight ratio, it's not so much aging as it is old.

But why replace it if there isn’t a single objectively superior weapon? I mean a SMG is a niche compared to standard issue and they military has no problem issuing the same standard issue rifle.

The SMG the Army is buying is a better weapon than the MP5 and the last time the Army bought an SMG was the M3.

According to the army it's because troops are literally too retarded to learn a different manual of arms.
The B&T has almost all the same controls and MOA as an M4 so it's less shit to teach Mexicans, niggers, cletus, and flips

>Tl;Dr the MP5 is too complicated

>The SMG the Army is buying is a better weapon than the MP5
Objectively false. It's exactly the same size, weight, and price as an MP5k while not shooting as softly.

>not shooting as softly

I would imagine this is false, while I am not saying the B&T is great, recoil mitigation is one thing it receives universal praise for. I would say they are equal in recoil

have you ever used an MP5, or a G3 or any other HK longarm product?

The ergonomics may have been good for their era, but they're crap compared to a bargain bin AR15. Giant squishy yet stubborn controls placed just out of reach.

Adding 50-100fps isn't going to do much for your standard 124gr ball. 9mm FMJ is 9mm FMJ no matter how you cut it. The trajectory isn't going to improve out to 100 yards, the terminal performance isn't changing either. The purpose of the SMG is basically just ergonomics. Its easier to shoot because you have more points of contact for support and aiming.

Yes, I own an HK91 and a shitty zenith MP5. And as the largest issues with the controls and ergos have been resolved since the early 90's. I am by no means saying the APC9 is shit, I am moreso concerned why people have randomly decided to abandon the MP5 when in reality it is still a top tier 9mm.

It's not top tier today. It may never have been. It's riding on a reputation, and now the reputation has worn off.

>It's exactly the same size, weight, and price as an MP5k while not shooting as softly.

Why lie so blatantly?

Ok then, again I ask you to OBJECTIVELY tell me what it does that is worst than modern 9mm SMG's.

I am not doubting you, I just do not see how it comes up short to these modern firearms.

>The barrel length is the worst part
>I cannot into suppressed subsonic

The biggest problem I've seen with HK type roller locks is the extractor spring on the bolt is somewhat finicky, and needs to be replaced regularly; the bolt needs a different locking piece when fired with a suppressor in order to cycle reliably; and the all but the 40/10mm guns are lacking bolt hold open.

The mp5 is a great gun, but there are better modern alternatives. One of which is B&T's offering.

How about telling us what it does better than modern 9mm SMG while you are at it.

It's a fact, prove me wrong

gives blue collar people factory jobs

Nothing, but it also doesnt do anything worse than modern 9mm's.

I had forgotten that you have to change locking pieces with a suppressor.

mac10

>argest issues with the controls and ergos have been resolved since the early 90's

Being even worse before doesn't make it good now. Besides ergos, there's fit, finish, and reliability. MP5s are stamped metal. Fincky, awkward POS compared to milled, modern, modular guns.

You seem invested in 1980s PR brochures fluffed up on some old embassy raid. I'm not saying MP5s can't poke holes in what they point at, but for a nation buying fresh weapons, they're simply not on the radar. There's no need to pick inferior ergos to assuage the ego of a dying company and their fanboys.

>Fincky
>MP5

those two words never go together in a sentence. It and the UZI literally run no matter what.

Probably more expensive than it's worth

>I would say they are equal in recoil
Please state your experience shooting both.

The same as yours.

I haven't fired an Uzi, but I have used MP5s from the armory on deployment, and they're overrated.

Maybe I should say overrated by civilians who don't use them. The SF I talked to said MP5 problems have been a thing since the 90s.

>source, my ass

Yeah, absolutely. I have first-hand experience, and it was quite convincing to me. I understand you, who have no such experience, may not be convinced; but that's your problem not mine.

I actually wasn't saying it should be replaced. It's old, but it's fine, at least it get's the job done as good as anything else on the market

It's hard to replace something the Army isn't using.

That’s pretty much what I was saying as Well.

You still have police departments buying UMPs, MPXs and EVOs and other random shit as replacement to their old MP5s, and the UMP is objectively a worse weapon than most other subguns on the market.

MPX and EVO are also good choices to replace the MP5.

fuck you, I like shootable bricks

>MPX

Quite possibly the worst SMG choice out there due to the fact its DI, imagine running that thing suppressed.

user...

TP9 would have been better than the APC

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I would agree but .gov would have probably wanted them to make a new one that takes P320 magazines. Also, the APC has similar enough controls to an M4 so the transition would be easy. And yeah, I know that's weird to say since the TP9 has an AR type charging handle

I admit I don't have enough trigger time behind either to form a statistically meaningful comparison, which is why I'm not making any any claims. You seem to be talking out your ass without anything to back it up.

what? its true.

why use this when you can use an mp7? YIKES!

>using 4.6 or 5.7 on anything but armored targets

Shooting in pinholes in people is not preferred.

Straight blowback guns have way harsher recoil than roller delayed or just about any other method of operation in an automatic firearm. Hydraulic buffers help but it's still straight blowback.

Why didn't they just use an MP7 or a P90? Both of those have a higher capacity standard capacity magazine, they are both very concealable and very very low recoil. Oh, and the ammunition is capable of being armor piercing and it has more range than a 9 if need be. So I have no idea why they chose the B&T over either of those. I'm not shitting on B&T though, they make great guns, all I'm saying is that the MP7 or the P90 could have done the role better.

because it's for MPs so who cares, and they have metric fucktons of 9 kicking around

See

Double feed being better than single feed for SMGs has been known for generations. Double feed is easier to load and has a more lax tolerance requirement when it comes to magazine lockup and feed ramp profile. This is a large reason why stock MACs are known to jam so much.

pinholes are fine when you can poke 40 of them into somebody in 2.5 seconds