So the French-German FCAS will actually become reality?

Too bad that the UK plays that butthurt child in Europe.

Rolls Royce's expertise would have been neat for the FCAS.

UK actually plans way less to spend than France and Germany. I think Tempest is supposed to receive not even the half of funds in the same timeframe.

Possibly Tempest can end as a 5++ aircraft instead of a 6th gen aircraft.

Yeah, if UK doesn't get a big partner like Japan. There is no way Tempest can compete with FCAS.

I heard the Swedes might partner up with the UK for Tempest

>FCAS
>6th gen
>Laughs in F/A-XX

It will not because germans don't want us to be able to sell it to saudis or whoever we want.

I doubt it. Europe's got one shot at getting this right, and that requires the UK and Sweden not to be fucking morons and try to go it alone, which won't happen.

A truly pan-European fighter wouldn't even need foreign orders to be viable.

It's franco german, not european.
Other countries are onboard the F35 train.

The idea is for it to be a European standard. It being led by France and Germany doesn't change that.

not possible when other countries don't want it.
Anyway, it will be scraped and Germany will buy the F35 and France will end up making something that will fly in 30 years at best.

The last time there was an attempt at a Pan European fighter, the Eurofighter clusterfuck happened.
What makes you think the FCAS will be any different, especially since France and Germany often clash with each other regarding the politics of their defence industries?

Good luck with that bet, because it's a terrible one.

>Germany will buy the F35
I dunno. The officials who keep saying that they should just buy the F-35 keep getting fired for completely unrelated reasons.

I didn't say it would work. In fact, if you had basic reading comprehension skills, you'd understand that I explicitly said it wouldn't work because the UK and Sweden won't join.

Tell me what country will dump the F35 they invested so much into for a franco german plane with performances far below ?

>France and Germany often clash with each other regarding the politics of their defence industries
This. France will want to sell it to everyone who can afford them, while the Germans will want them to be restricted to only countries that have EU-level human rights records and never fight in actual wars.

How would the UK and Sweden joining make things better? They too have conflicting requirements regarding what they want from a 6th gen fighter, and how much their defence industries should be involved in the program itself.

The Eurofighter had Britain, and that didn't help much at all.

Heard that as well. As a Gripen fanboy this make me happy new that SAAB is not part of the Franco-German project.

Designing 3 different fighters and disjointed industrial bases around them is retarded and pretty much guarantees that there will never be enough of any of them built to enable viability as a common platform or to allow them to be competitive in international bidding.

You don't need to dump the F-35 for a new European fighter to ALSO be common across the continent. It is possible to have more than 1 aircraft type in a fleet.

Why though? The Gripen, including the new version, will never be internally successful.

Why I like the Idea of SAAB being part of the Tempest program or why I'm a Gripen fanboy?

But there's only two plans for 6th gen fighters in Europe right now, FCAS and Tempest, both of which are looking for partners. Whats the third one?

France, Germany and Spain is a good start.

SAAB is hoping for Tempest because it would mean a larger developement share than in a FCAS programme with an already clear France & German lead.

Which is also the main difference to previous European projects. There are two lead partners, with France taking the developement lead, which call the shots.

Sweden will join FCAS later or sooner. Massive lack of funding and Tempest will get excluded from any EU funds, which Sweden hopes to receive.

It's incredible. If France had just shut the fuck up and got in line, and Germany had manned up and stopped being so hesitant about anything that goes bang, all of EF's problems in its development wouldn't have happened.

Entirely avoidable. Britain and Italy basically saved that project in the long term. Spain has been meh, and Germany has been a lead weight attached to it constantly taking in only the minimum and never pushing for anything worthwhile. (And flatlining every export contract they were heading up)

It's why I am wary of FCAS. France and Germany are absolutely shit partners for that sort of thing. And I am just waiting for the inevitable clash to happen over exports.

>inevitable clash to happen over exports
>"Mon dieu! What do you mean we can't sell it to North Korea?"

>UK & Sweden team up
Thats a Jow Forumsjoke right?

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No.
Why do you even have that saved on your computer?

Keep in mind FCAS is the whole " future air assets" program of which O's pic is only the manned part.

If France will lead that part there is still a lot to discuss about the industrial arrangements around the varous unmenned vehicles that will fly around it and which partner countries could take the lead on these.

Frankly you could do worse than France and Germany to build a plane in terms of industrial and technological base, as long as they can get along in terms of who does what and whether Germany will be a pussy about exports or not.

Duno, I hate gays.
Possible to bitch about muh 5.56 cant pentrate GAYS

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I think Germany got the leadership for the drone. (and also the leadership for the next-gen tank).

Holy shit, they are only JUST giving the green light for the feasibility study?

They are literally years behind Tempest already.

she needs a new superweapon to ruin it.
So ist das Leben. AMA im german

Just another joint European clusterfuck waiting to happen. Delivers less than promised at cost much higher than promised. European countries are better off buying F-35's. At least Lockheed-Martin aren't liars like French or selling amphibious assault ships to enemies of Europeans like Russians like French.

>They are literally years behind Tempest already.

It's the opposite, actually.

this biatch

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Tempest is already in the design phase. The fighters requirements and feasibility was completed before team tempest was even announced.

They also have far more allocated funding.

dipbt.bundestag.de/dip21/btd/19/034/1903403.pdf

Looking at the studies which were done. Italy and Sweden did so much studies together with France and Germany within the European Technology Acquisition Programme. They mostlikely join them after all the political theater.

>Tempest is already in the design phase.

No. Nothing is kickstarted even.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_bribery_scandals

Tempest has basically just a consortium announced.

They are still looking for partners

theengineer.co.uk/tempest-combat-aircraft/

Why are you posting when you're so poorly informed?

The design requirements were completed before tempest was even announced. They've been designing the concept since announcement ans have a budget of £2bn.

In 2025 the final design will be ready an a decision will be made to invest. With the prototype to fly in 2030 and to enter service in 2035 for Typhoon retirement around 2040.

why is it that people who hate gays have so much pictures of gays being gays?
its...kinda gay

And FCAS looks different in literally every image because they have fuck all idea what it will look like.

Everyone is onboard the f35 train. The f35 is gonna be retired when these 6th generation programs become viable.

>According to Kennedy, any technologies mentioned at the Team Tempest launch event should be seen as an aspiration, rather than a concrete announcement; partly because everything is still subject to the feasibility studies with potential partners, and partly because in many cases they simply haven’t been developed yet.

Why not? I have a dead muslim folder and im christian and alive :3

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generally speaking they wont go and publish models if they arent sure about it..
sure some things might change but the general feeling is that piece of shit we saw will be real

>F/A-XX

FCAS will probably see military action
kill some sand niggers
actually being sold outside of europe
getting downed by israelis on the hands of saudis
retire
being back to active duty
all that before usa actually gets a plan for a 6th gen that isnt pure bullshit for speculations only

Well, it looks like the US Navy is intending to take deliveries of 6th gens before 2030, so it's coming sooner than people think.

>Even the Eurofighter is based on a German design.
What are you talking about?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Aerospace_EAP

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Considering Europe's history with delayed defense projects that are obsolete when they're finally delivered, I suspect you're wrong.

>Considering Europe's history with delayed defense projects that are obsolete when they're finally delivered, I suspect you're wrong.
Examples being...?

Eurofighter Typhoon.

What exactly made it out of date when it was delivered?

A400M

What exactly made it out of date when it was delivered?

Rafale

When has Europe ever been ahead of the US in fighter design? They still haven’t produced a single 5th gen, while the Raptor has been flying since 1997.

What exactly made it out of date when it was delivered?

Germany and UK decided to use the Taktisches Kampfflugzeug 90 concept by Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm.

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carring capacity, performance of engines, reliability, not to mention the loading ramp being to weak.

Non stealthy, not supermanoeuvrable, not capable of STOL, EF Typhoon was delayed from initial production date by years, tranche 1 was not capable of basic air to ground capability.

There was also a Dornier & Northrop design study. Which later influnced the YF-23

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in addition to the delays and cost overruns

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This. It went into service only 2 years before the F-22, but is still less capable than an F-15C.

>Germany and UK decided to use the Taktisches Kampfflugzeug 90 concept by Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm.

No such thing happened. The design of EAP was funded by the UK and was an amalgamation of multiple concepts.

Many aspects of the TKF design were thrown out due to poor aerodynamic performance. specifically how the the canards caused turbulence over the twin tail.

Pretty much the only element of that concept to make it to typhoon was the air intake, and even then it needed BAE to design the variable intake ramps to improve supersonic performance.

If this thread still exists and if i can be bothered i'll post first hand sources from the designers.

>europe literally goes for 6th gen
>HURR DURR EUROPE DOESNT HAVE A 5TH GEN

what kind of retarded thinking is that

>>HURR DURR EUROPE DOESNT HAVE A 5TH GEN
Name one European 5th gen design in production as of right now.

Furry is low level shit.

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t. your ass

I'm not saying they can't produce a 6th gen. I'm saying that it's ridiculous to say that a region that has never worked on modern 5th gen aircraft is going to develop a 6th gen platform before what is currently the world's most advanced aerospace industry.

>carring capacity
A400M Atlas: 37 tonnes
C130J:19.1 tonnes

>performance of engines
A400M Atlas:421 knots
A400M: 4,700nmi
C130J: 362 knots
C130J: 1,800nmi
>reliability
Cite that, please.
>not to mention the loading ramp being to weak.
Given A400M can take heavier and larger cargo than C130J? lol no.

Name a programme that doesn't.

That would be great.

Given how the R-M01 and EF-2000 were both years late and at best equivalent to enhanced versions of American 4th gens before being completely blown out of the water by the 5th gens, I suspect the same thing will happen here.

dunno when it comes to joint ventures the french and germans seem to be doing ok.

Your listing of different capabilities which weren't relevant to its role.
>Non stealthy
Was it going up against stealthy fighters? No.
>not supermanoeuvrable
Neither is F-35.
>not capable of STOL
Not relevant to its role.
>EF Typhoon was delayed from initial production date by years
Did this make it "obsolete", no it did not.
>tranche 1 was not capable of basic air to ground capability.
Not relevant to tranche 1's role.

if you are completely ignorant of history, sure.

Don't you remember the issues C17 had?

>Pentagon Warns McDonnell It May Cancel C-17 Program

>The Pentagon warned the McDonnell Douglas Corporation yesterday that it would end the development of the C-17 cargo plane unless the contractor overhauled the troubled program, which has been hit by delays, cost overruns and technical problems.

>Last month, Defense Secretary Les Aspin dismissed an Air Force general who had headed the C-17 program and disciplined three other contracting officials after the Defense Department Inspector General found that the Air Force had illegally funneled almost $500 million to McDonnell Douglas for unfinished C-17 work.

>nytimes.com/1993/05/12/business/pentagon-warns-mcdonnell-it-may-cancel-c-17-program.html

>Was it going up against stealthy fighters? No.
This is such a dumb statement I have trouble believing that it was written by a human- it'd better be bait.

Yeah. Anyone that thinks FCAS will be flying before US 6th gens has no idea what they’re talking about.

>new fighter jets
>manned

It was an interceptor/air superiority fighter for covering European airspace. It was never intended for deep strikes where your opponent covers his airspace in IADS which is where you get the requirement for stealth.

The C-17 was introduced nearly a decade before the A-400M

>I'm such a delusional Britbong

It'll be tomorrow, tonight i'm having drinks and relaxing. Really not in the mood to be searching books and posting scans desu