What is the difference between enlisted and officers? What if a 2nd Lieutenant bullies a Master Seargeant?

I watched a 1LT stand at parade rest in front a sergeant major during a morning run and hang his head while he basically grovelled because the SM was chewing him out over his socks.
All in full view of a battalion sized column running by.

Almost makes me think the 1LT had done something previously and was getting his dick kicked in the dirt in the open in retaliation, the SM was loved by the enlisted and was always fair and level headed.

This, it's a rare senior NCO who will immediately run to his boss to complain about some dumb lieutenant.
Also this, if an officer is out of regs/doing something like that it's more common for the senior NCO to pull him aside and have a private conversation. The fact that he didn't in your case says to me that the lieutenant was already a problem child.

Got witness this glorious moment brought about by Sgt Maj Vines, aka the Daywalker.
>be boot ass ofc
>outside the px
>see Sgt Maj Vines coming from one direction
>see equally boot ass butterbar Lt coming from the other
>Vines gives Lt the proper greeting "morning sir" and keeps walking
>no salute
>boot Lt turns around
>"Hey Sgt Maj, I know you know officers rate a salute"
>Sgt Maj Vines looks over his shoulder and says "Climb up my rockers and get it bitch"
>ohshitit'sabouttogodown.jpeg
>Lt starts after him
>Ssgt who observed this whole event grabs him and convinces him not to go full retard
>keks were had

During pre mobilization to Afghanistan our 1SGT gave a speech about this. He asked "how many deployments has that 2nd Lieutenant been on?", "zero first sergeant", he then said that if the 2LT gave any orders that would get us killed, that a senior NCO would have the duty to override. One of the best leaders i've ever had

Is there an archive anywhere of stories about him? I remember one site having a ton, but it appears to be deleted now.

I think i saw something years ago, but I can't think of where. Google might help

Long story short.

Officers are generalists and enlisted are specialists. And at the junior/platoon level where they have the most direct input into day to day operations, the officer needs the platoon to teach him to be a good officer, the platoon does not need the officer to be a good platoon.

Basically an officer is management and do all the paperwork while enlisted are the ground pounders and do the dirty work.
The most respected officers are usually those that were prior enlisted, but even they can be dicks. While on paper the officer is supposed to be the "big cheese" reality is that time in service is more valuable than actual rank.

>What if a 2nd Lieutenant bullies a Master Seargeant?
I saw the exact opposite of the above.
>remaining 3 months of my enlistment at Camp Pendleton I was a staff NCO, pushing paper downstream
>my "office" was next door to the sgt major, 3 up, 3 down and a star in the middle for you non serves
>loudspeaker blow evening colors, we stand and salute, sgt major who is a major hardass yells at me to front and center
>he points to a Marine quick marching down the sidewalk
>"I want his ass and heels locked in front my desk pronto
>bam, out the door I go on a run, get about 25 ft from the miscreant "hey you" then I notice he is a butter bar Lt.
>"uh, sir, excuse me
cont...

lmao a master sergeant wont take shit from an LT

Most knowledgeable E5s won't take shit from an LT.

Most E4s will sham to get out of taking orders from an LT.

And anyone E3 or below should be beneath being directly ordered by an LT.

cont
>uh, excuse me sir, the Sgt. Major wants to see you right away sir
>he tells me to tell the Sgt. Major to call him in the morning at ext. so and so.
>I reiterate the urgency but he blows me off, ok, glad its your ass and not mine
>jog back and relay the situation, Sgt. Major is livid.
>he finds out who is at ext. so and so and calls the base commander who he is on first name basis with.
>dis gonna be gud, so I hang around to watch the fireworks
>ten min later a winded, red faced 2nd Lt. saunters into the Sgt. Major's office
>he is told to shut the door
cont

cont
> needless to say it was epic
>after the Lt. was escorted out the Sgt. Major saw me at my desk acting busy with my head down
>he just smiled and said "get outa here".

Fucking hell, it reeks of the ranks in here also after reading Why the fuck does the US mil. treat its junior officers like shit? In South Africa junior officers and warrant officers generally avoid each other like the plague because it would be mutually assured destruction, sure warrant officer has the ear of the Colonel, but that Lt's captain has the ear of the Colonel too.

Because unlike South Africa, the US's military is not a shambled mess wearing the worst aspects of its 80s heritage.

Sgt. Major sounds like a self-important blowhard piece of shit.

It depends on the LT. I've had an LT who I really looked up to and completely trusted, and who I knew would always have my back and put me up to bat where my strengths were necessary, so I always had his. I've also had an LT who I made cry by accident because I was too mean. It swings both ways. You don't have to have experience and expertise to be a good officer, you need to have motherfucking character, presence, and intellect.

Guilty dog barks the loudest.
Especially with straw man shit.

Doesn't change the fact we all worked for the platoon sergeant.

>leadership conducting itself with gravitas
>treating future leaders with a modicum of respect
>shambling mess

The idea of a WO shitting on a officer, or vice-versa, in public, is literally incomprehensible to me.

That saying doesn't make sense. I've spent time caring for hundreds of dogs. When dogs know they did something wrong, they tend to quietly sulk in a corner with their tails tucked.

Which was why your officers are shit. The platoon is there to train the officer to become a captain. The NCOs are there to actually run it.

Because it's fanfic. Most people here are too dumb for an officer carrier so they are stuck with a life as enlists.
So that people are biased is just natural.

while that user did word things a little faggoty, that sounds like what a marine sgtmaj would do and kinda what's expected of them, even by other officers.
part of their job is literally to enforce tradition and culture. officers aren't exempt, especially butter bars. the butterbar shoulda known better, but he'll probably jokingly tell that story later on when he's a captain.

im shocked a 2lt had the gall to blow off a sgtmaj who was so close, considering the dude was right down the hall.

desu i dont believe most stories of public officer humiliation. their punishments are handled by their own superiors behind closed doors.
senior enlisted leadership understands that it's bad business to demean a junior officer in front of "the boys" because "the boys" at the end of the day need to respect that officer.

i've heard it's another ballpark in country when shit matters and officers will stand by crusty sncos who told a lt to fuck off when the situation warranted it, but that's another world basically

Because everyone here is a never served or air force enlisted pog. Senior enlisted don't in any way have the kind of pull that these fags are pulling their dicks daydreaming about. It's all bluff. They will try to puff up to butterbars but if you tell them to fuck off its amazing how fast they deflate.

Smart officers don't do this in front of the kids, because you don't want them to see daddy and mommy fighting, but in every tour, behind closed doors you will have to put some dumbass lifer enlisted fag too unqualified to succeed in the civilian world in his place. Just once, then drop it and don't ever mention it again. You have to understand that while the SNCO circle jerk club can give mean looks to some JO they don't like, a single JO can positively buttfuck a SNCO if he decides to escalate to any kind of official shit like IG or Mast or whatever. They intrinsically have more vulnerabilities since they have history. And once you have any sort of hearsay on shady shit the guy has done (and 99% have) and he knows you have it in your pocket, it's simple.

This isn't to say SNCOs aren't important or that their aren't good ones. But I find in general the ratio of quality to bullshit personell drops rapidly as you climb ranks in either hierarchy. So SNCOs are on the wrong side of that curve compared to cherry LTs

>Which was why your officers are shit
He says with absolutely nothing to justify his statement. I think its likely who are on the money here and the posts here are just the ranks (enlisted) telling tales about super-enlisted doing something to an officer that they themselves could never do, but desperately wished to do, like this shit

>muh pull

It stinks of garrison pogues to me. Good SNCOs have no problems saluting a young officer stateside or crushing their nuts on deployment. Mixing the two spheres up for weird social problems is bizzare and unprofessional.

>What is the difference between enlisted and officers?
Enlisted cut themselves accidentally on sharp objects a lot. Thats why there's a circle around their logo.

Attached: 184.413_0.jpg (300x300, 16K)

>their punishments are handled by their own superiors behind closed doors.
I thought so, over here getting a stern look from a WO while in formation is generally a good indication that you are about to be summoned to your Captains office for some choice words.

Also
>The platoon is there to train the officer to become a captain.
Nope, LT trains 2Lt to be LT, Captain trains LT to be Captain. Its called mentorship.

>t. NutnFancy

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a 2nd Lt stupid enough to pick a fight with a MSG, but generally it wouldn’t go well for him.

I have seen a couple of instances of officers getting blown the fuck out in public though:
>platoon training
>assaulting an enemy observation post
>PL gets too in the weeds, keeps trying to micromanage the squads
>finally the PSG gets fed up
>shouts “SHUT THE FUCK UP AND LET ME RUN MY PLATOON SIR”
>PL sulks away and spends the rest of the mission calling things up to higher while the PSG manages the platoon

Worked alongside another E-5 who was the JOC NCO who would regularly and publicly call out officers who sent him fucked up products. Our LTC thought it was funny and good for the junior officers.

I’ve also seen various pilots get blown out in AARs for fucking up, but getting ragged on in AARs is kind of what they’re about.

For the most part though that kind of stuff is kept behind closed doors, especially when it’s within the unit.

>t. ROTC cadet

>literally to enforce tradition and culture
Is this why every Marine I've met is a living stereotype? They have someone in a position of authority whose job is literally to make them act like human caricatures?

Sure sweetie

it's actually a big part of it, especially for active enlisted marines.
first sgt and sgt maj are there to keep the marininess of things around and they will devote themselves to that with more gusto than you'd think such an oldfuck could muster. on top of that they literally write rules and regulations.

>t. neverserved

This thread is a bunch of exaggerations. The old conventional wisdom was officers uber alles so NCOs blowing them out became the backlash and eventually the new conventional wisdom and now NCOs get cucked is the new backlash.

>3 up 3 down... for you non serves
>sgtmaj
>camp pendleton

Sure homo. Post that DD214 then

That 1LT was a bitch and SGM knew it. I "relieved" my first platoon sergeant as a butterbar (he couldnt wear kit and tried to be everyone's friend).

Zero exaggerations on my end.
It was Sgt. Major Heinz, 3d Armored Cavalry, 2nd squadron. Ft. Hood, Texas.
(Yes 3d ACR was battalion/squadron, unlike the rest of the army).
Sgt. Major for battalion was named Hunts btw.

Awww, are you afwaid of the thought of a big bad NCO?

For the benefit of all my misbegotten children on the chans....I am an actual Army officer, O-3, Captain, US Army. First of all, as a 2LT, you are constantly drilled that you are there to learn as a PL or XO. As a 1LT, you have the benefit of knowing how little you know so you mostly work closely with your SNCOs to effectively accomplish the mission. As a CPT, you have seen enough bloodshed and stupidity to know that you should rule your LTs and NCOs with an iron fist and god forbid anyone ever cross you because CPT is when this officer bullshit gets fucking real because at the end of the day when you are in command, the buck stops with you.

The problem with the grunts telling their little stories here is that they only the world from the little daily lives on platoon level. Where you are only dealing with NCOs.

No. Why do you ask?

>muh officer circle jerk removed from the work getting done

McNamara determined that 80% of the Pentagon staff could drop off the face of the earth and have zero repercussions on the military.

The enlisted-officer separation is a holdover from old school Prussian bullshit amd everyday I am surprised by the military's ability to dump and stop every tradition except that one.

>McNamara was a great military thinker who should be heeded for his wisdom.

The absolute state of thinking while enlisted

>no, don't take my cush do-nothing jobs where I hold the hat of someone two paygrades above me for 3 years between networking with other hay holding do nothings

>seatbelts are a meme guys, I swear
>M16 was a mistake that we quickly fixed and dropped

It wouldn't be so funny if senior career officers didn't get caught doing cringey sperg shit that would make a E2 cherry blush.

You military fuckers arguing over who has to say good morning to who is stupid

If you haven't figured out that an E 3 is much more similar to an O1 than an O6 is, and that an O6 is much more similar to an E7 in personality and values than he is to an O1, then you without a doubt have never worn a uniform beside that cute cheerleader number your stepdad makes you put on when you get a bad report card, user.

... your bosses yelled at each other? This story sucks.

You relieved a butterbar and some poor E6/E5 had to do his bosses' job.

Attached: 6139d7c44c313987947b966c48b241ed.jpg (720x960, 87K)

And the E7 also gets caught soliciting tranny hookers behind the safeway. The only difference is that he wasn't entrusted with the vaunted officer cred to be in charge of men because of some esoteric magical reasoning that may have made sense in a time when we marched into open fields and took turns shooting at each other in neat rows.

Okay so explain your counter proposal. 20 or so ranks that have no inflection point in the middle as currently? When and how do you select the people who will fill the rolls officers currently hold and will you require them to get or already hold degrees? Not trolling just trying to get an idea of what you want instead of the current system

The system we have now works pretty good.

The PL learns how to lead and soldier from the PSG and other NCOs until they get promoted to the point that they have almost zero actual input into the day to day operations.

I feel pretty certain you're not the same guy

Imagine working somewhere for 20 years, then your company hires a fresh college grad in a position that makes him technically your boss. Your new boss knows very little about how to actually do the job yet, but still demands you actively recognize his authority over you every time you meet. That would piss you off too wouldn't it?

Nobody likes a butter bar who lets rank go to their head and tries to boss around someone who's been in the military longer than they've been alive. For the ones who haven't quite figured that out yet, getting reamed by a senior NCO can actually teach them a valuable lesson about respect.

>Imagine working somewhere for 20 years, then your company hires a fresh college grad in a position that makes him technically your boss. Your new boss knows very little about how to actually do the job yet, but still demands you actively recognize his authority over you every time you meet. That would piss you off too wouldn't it?
Holy fucking shit. Are you still in highschool? This shit happens every single day in the working world.

These fucking enlisted fantasies man, holy shit.

>doxing yourself on an Albanian cooking forum

11B2P, nigger

Junior officers generally let the staff NCO’s run the platoon, though everything does need to be run by them first. Would be unwise for an LT to get into a pissing contest with a PSG for first shirt.

The officers always and forever mentality made a lot of sense in WWII and vietnam though, when you had 24 year old 1SGTs lol.

No civilian employer in their right mind would hire a fresh college grad to be the boss of someone who's worked for them for 20 years- unless that guy is a complete shit bag.
I've never seen a job ad that didn't wave the requirement for a degree in favor of years experience.

In the military it does happen all the time though. Nobody actually cares about the age difference because it's just a fact of military life. However, it is highly disrespectful on a personal level for a fresh officer boot to demand respect from an enlisted ready to retire. Quit acting like you'd be cool with that. Unless you're a fucking bootlicking pussy, you wouldn't stand for that shit either.

College degrees were a good filter until the 1980s. A bachelors used to mean an average IQ of 115.

Today, due to broader access to college and/or weaker classes, graduate IQs are no better than the rest of the population.

ofc, we ought to have better filters today. Critics have been calling out the problem since the Korean war, arguably WW2, and it's never been addressed service-wide.

Management never fires itself. The number of flag officers has quadrupled since WW2.

Employers do it all the time.

>t. Nurse

My grandmother was the head nurse in her hospital before retiring. I doubt any doctor straight out of medical school ever tried showing authority over her.

US soldier, trained with you guys last year and the year before. You guys are absolutely fucked up, why the fuck are your soldiers offering me blunts in the middle of a fucking patrol base at night, why the fuck don't you know what noise security is, why the fuck are your NCOs less knowledgeable than my privates, why the fuck do most of you not have NODs, and finally why the fuck do you people live in a country with thorns that go clean through soles of boots

There's a few that are real though. I've seen a fresh out of ROTC butter bar try to start shit with a SGT Major over a salute and a senior officer came by and practically manhandled the LT for doing something that stupid

Two distinct fields of healthcare. I’m talking more along the lines of a brand new RN, being in charge of 10-20 year LPN and CNAs.

>and finally why the fuck do you people live in a country with thorns that go clean through soles of boots
You must not have spent much time in the southwest US, user.

It depends on who's in the wrong, who's watching, how they're both feeling that day, etc...

I recently watched an LT dress down an E-6 and treat him like a 10 year old because neither he nor any of his guys were wearing facepaint/gloves/eyepro despite having been told to a couple times.
Mitigating factors,
>E-6 was in the wrong
>The LT was inspecting the area with the company commander who had his back
>The E-6 was kinda quiet and knew he was wrong/kept looking around for his gloves when he heard the truck roll up
>Etc...

If you don't do it in front of subordinates, you only do it when you're in the right, and the senior enlisted ins't a cock mongler/your chain trusts you then you have a lot of power as an LT.

If you run in all willy nilly and try to fuck with good dudes that know their jobs that the commander likes just because you have a stick in your ass about feeling important you're going to have a bad time and lose credibility.

Based and thruthpilled

>Literally hordes of butthurt lower enlisted making up fairy tales about their PSG raping their PL bent over a table in front of the entire platoon while saying "enlisted are better than officers"
These threads always crack me up.

The vast majority of posts on the internet are half truths at best and almost all posts on Jow Forums are larping faggots wishful thinking. A rookie mistake is believing any greentext stort you read here, they are all wet dreams by some fat autists. Military has regulations and most NCOs and COs understand their purpose and power dynamics. Sure there is some friction but problems are solved discreetly. No senior NCO ever would be dumb enough to roast a junior officer publicly since they fucking understand how it erodes the command structure as a whole.

I blame it on half of Jow Forums being lower enlisted or being high-school kids who's parents were senior enlisted and only told them the cool stories.

anybody bullying anybody outside of a DS/DI is a cunt and will be remembered as such. Unless its for a specific reverse psychology purpose, like a trying to give somebody confidence through harshness or give the men a lightening to focus their hate. Everyone has a job to do, do it to the best of your ability and help the people below you. This is true for both enlisted and officers, know your role and try to preform the best in it an you'll be fine

Attached: marine DI.jpg (480x360, 19K)

Maybe 5% of Jow Forums has actually served and out of those maybe 1 in 10 is actually higher than Specialist. This place like most other boards are full of larping kids and fat autists who eat up whatever bullshit is posted since they don't know better

This is the part those wet dream larpers don't understand. Military is a complicated structure where everyone has a specific job they have to do otherwise everyone gets fucked. It's not some rank dick measuring contest they think it is

Not in the Nuclear Navy.
Most officers know their stuff okay, but they also spend time with topsider/ coner shit and don't have the in-depth knowledge the operators have. If they order something wrong, some enlisted will, politely maybe, mention the error of his ways. God help the plant zero who tries to violate plant procedures over objections.
Although there was a CDR XO who ordered violation of a cold water interlock, went on to be CO elsewhere, and the RO got roasted for not protesting enough.

Horseshit you were there. Every fucking boot on Pendleton back in '09 heard that story.

The EOOW exists for two things. Read a book and make MCs.

A good RO or EO can make up for a bad EOOW. A good EOOW cannot make up for a bad RO or EO.

Positional authority is best authority.

This exact thing happens all the time now. I don't think I've ever seen a single promotion on actual merit in my entire adult life.

Besides, think about it logically. As a miserly old boomer, do you want to remove your top earners from earning and put them in a position where they're just managing less efficient earners?

No, you'll put your diversity hires or women in the workplace quota in the cushy office job, and keep your top earners earning.

Enlisted did their job at some point but the officer never got a chance to so he's doomed to listen to his senior NCOs to be effective. If he doesn't, you fucking dumbshit OP cunt squiggleworm colleged-educated cumstain, his platoon dies.

Interesting. What do you do now that you're out? For work I mean

>tfw as a junior officer I've been treated with enough kindness and respect by NCOs/SNCOs that I can't even be mad when I read this level of LARP on Jow Forums that reflects badly on them

I know when they call me "sir", ask for "my opinion", advise my with what they've experienced, and treat me like I'm their boss despite them having 10+ years experience on me that I'm in the most respectful profession in the world.

The fact that guys 10-20 years older than me with much more life, work, and moral experience than me can entrust me to be "the boss" (even if I'm just giving a yes/no decision), call me sir, say "respectfully, X is wrong because", etc... is a confidence boost that I feel the need to "live up to" what an officer is supposed to be.
Being an officer is a weird feeling, a lot of pride and respect for your profession while also realizing that the organization is a living animal where you need the NCOs to survive as much as they need you to sign off on executive decisions/choices.

I can't emphasize this enough.
SNCOs and NCOs being supportive/saying "we've got this sir, but let me show you how it works" is the best thing in the world.

NCOs aren't some awful beast that wants to fuck up LTs can quits when they become Captains.
99% of the time NCOs want you to succeed and prosper and do their job to the best of their ability.

This reddit meme of NCOs being assdicks to officers because they're 2-3 years older is dumb.

My best experiences as an officer were having SNCOs politely hint at certain stuff I eventually figured out.
I fucking love NCOs, and Jow Forums taking a page from rebbit and pretending that there's some sort of rivarly between Os and NCOs takes the cake and pisses me off.

Why don't they just tell and teach officer cadets to respect and stay away from E-5 and above?

Attached: image.jpg (125x124, 3K)

>reddit
>reddit
Nigger, the meme is older than reddit. You'll probably find some old roman scrolls about Marcus Didius the Experienced Centurion dabbing on Cornelius Billious Lentullus the Twattish Young Tribune.

It's a story people like because everyone sees junior officers as bumptious braying twats who's only real interest is High Jinks in the Officers Mess.

Just to illustrate this, I'm pretty sure this show was made before reddit existed.
youtube.com/watch?v=tRBMCrx9yZQ

I had an E-7 buddy go green to gold. Chose a college 20 mins from base and would party with him all the time. While a freshman ROTC some junior tried to chew his ass for something. The Prof of Mil Science shit that bitch up so fucking fast the whole school joked about it for months.

Im taking fucking notes while reading this thread before i talk to an OSO