Elite Forces Sustain Heavy Casualties In Badghis

weak bait, retard.

>third-world undisciplined shitter soldiers get clapped
>lol burgers
ME soldiers are dogshit for anything conventional.
As another user said, you can’t take the stupid out of an Arab. It’s genetic from the inbreeding

Afghan SFare aboit as good as any regular western basic bitch grunt.

Probably even worse because at least the western grunts have somewhat capable leaders and tacticians, as to where the Afghan commanders tend to be drugged up retards without any actual knowledge or training in their occupation.
Some might be bleased to having even been trained in officer schools of western countries but even those tend to stay idiots.

There is a video of german federal police's foreign affairs special force trying to train the afghan police and militar together with the Bundeswehr.

It's a hilarious shitshow.
The Afghans believe the Germans are secretly trying to kill them or even cursed them because they experienced soreness for the first time in their live from the training.
As a freaking adult male, that is.

This is the Afghans we are talking about here, I'm going to post vice-shit in this thread and you are responsible for it OP

youtube.com/watch?v=Ja5Q75hf6QI

youtube.com/watch?v=n3Mn6V1IzHw
Being able to live in a mountain cave shithole for 20 years doesn't make you smart, muhammed

Over the last 3 years Afghan government forces are being trashed. Taliban are hardcore Nationalists and anti-semites with the sincere and elaborate believe that to become "Americanized" is a fate worst than death.

There is no way of winning that war.

The tiger teams are actually pretty solid shooters as far as Afghanis go, so I'm not sure what unit these commandos come from. Either way, they've been essentially the only functioning force in all of Afghanistan that can put up a fight against the Taliban and they've been getting hammered for years straight now, I can only imagine what kind of casualties they've sustained and the impact it's had on their morale and overall standards. Pretty rough when most your NCOs are KIA or have to train the new batch so they can't help innafield anymore due to casualties.

>muh monkey model soldiers
kek

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"Our" Western "rambos" wouldn't do much better. The Taliban are not gutless, tribalistic, nihilistic Arabs buddy, they have a profound Nationalist heart.

>"Our" Western "rambos" wouldn't do much better
Except the fact they already have when squaring off against insurgents in combat. Hearts and minds is another factor but that's unwinnable. The Taliban are still superior to the drug addicted childfuckers which compromise the ANA and various groups.

It's mostly the Taliban are motivated, have a man power pool to tap into, and decades upon decades of refined tactics and knowledge of their terrain to be used against ANA policemen from across the country manning a checkpoint by their village.

>American training
reminder that this is what they have to work with

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>third-world undisciplined shitter soldiers get clapped
>lol vatniks

Glad we've debunked the core criticisms of Russian equipment

Double reminder that those who actually went with the program and excelled were intentionally sabotaged by either being kicked out or simply killed off by incompetent commanders

jumping jacks are the most stupid thing ever

how do you fuck this up? this one dude in the middle thinks it's a fucking dance

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Is it really smart to obstinately fight someone who's doing their best to try and help you, take enormous casualties of the order of 1 to 50 k/d ratio, until they eventually give up in disgust and leave you to continue living in houses made of literal excrement and incest?
Is that really the smart thing to do?

Afghan soldiers dick around a lot. They don't see the point of training like that so they deliberately take the piss and laugh about it afterwards.
The reason the ANA is clusterfuck is complicated and multifaceted.

Originally in 2004-2008 the northern warlords were convinced they could win, so they sent to the ANA some of their best guys, the guys who had like 20 years experience fighting russians and talibans.
But then the ANA officials didn't want those guys dominating the military so they tended to give them low ranking positions, if they gave them rank at all. The companies, kandaks and brigades would be led by political appointees who mostly didn't know shit. Once the northern warlords figured this out, they stopped sending their best guys and as the guys who had gone started getting killed, they decided that they needed their remaining veterans to protect their own lands.
It's interesting to read about battles in 2006-2009, when a company commander would basically fuck off for the fighting and a charismatic corporal with 20 years experience would lead an attack that would save both the ANA force and the western advisors from getting rekt.
Corruption has always been an issue, with commanders creaming wages off "shadow soldiers", soldiers that don't actually exist but still draw wages and rations from the government. So looking at it in Kabul you'd see a kandak had 300 men on the rolls, whereas in reality it might only have 200-240. That kind of thing eats at morale.
Another significant issue poisoning morale is ANA soldiers knew right from the start that their lives were considered less valuable than western troops. They're riding around in unarmored ford rangers when all the western troops are in armoured vehicles. They finally got armoured humm vees when every western soldier was in an MRAP.
To be continued...

An interesting story from 2007 was where a group of western advisors in an OMLT took over, they got handed a nominal roll with like 40 names on it for a whole kandak. Looking around the barracks they found one (1) tryhard NCO, no other officers or NCOs apart from the kandak commander and about 100 guys lying around drinking tea.
Nothing they could do could induce them to take the training they were offering seriously. They just fucked around, got bored pissed off the trainers. Only one trainer noticed that actually all their weapons were in pretty good condition.
After a month of the OMLT basically feeling like they were fucking the cat and not getting anything accomplished, word comes down from Kabul that this kandak must be used an OP in 2 weeks time. Absolutely must go out, no excuses.
Once words circulates around the kandak that there's a real op on, literally dozens of troops and NCOs come out the woodwork, along with weapons, armed rangers technicals etc.
By the time the OP is due to kick off, there's 300 ANA on the parade ground, a dozen technicals and a bunch of NCOs buzzing around organising all this shit comically being chased around by western advisors trying to update their unit rolls. All except the kandak commader, who'd fucked off up to Kabul on "administraive business". And the operation went off reasonably well

The point made is that in 2007 at least, a lot of the ANA wanted to fight and could fight reasonably, they just had no tolerance for western military bullshit. And that's the way the afghans are, if they didn't want to do something, they'd just fuck off and not do it. Which is an alien concept to a western military mind.
But that was in 2007 and after years of watching their best guys get killed in places like Helmand, northern warlords no longer allow their best guys to go to the ANA, because they figure they're going to need them to defend their own ground.

However even back then there were serious issues with troop quality.

Which shows that there was a decent fighting core of the ANA that could have been exploited. The measures we would have had to take would have been politically unacceptable. and I don't mean "kill everyone" kind of way. To get the ANA up to scratch would have required taking a leaf out of the old British model for India. We would have had to put officers and NCOs full time into the ANA, to be company commanders and cadre leaders.
And those guys would have had to stay for like 5-10 years in that role, working with one kandak full time. And some of them would have got murdered. But mostly it would look just like "colonialism" and the press and both sides of the political aisle would have screamed bloody murder. And it would have drained western armies of experienced and good NCOs and officers, because non-good ones just wouldn't have been able to get the afghans to do what they wanted. And when those guys came back, they most likely would be ruined for regular service in the regular army. After 10 years commanding afghans, they simply wouldn't fit in any more. Loads of them would probably go native.
But that's probably the only way to actually take a third world army and make it into a decent fighting force.

There were other issues too. So like, officer training was handled by the french, recruit training was handled by the americans and then on-the-job training was handled whichever coalition partner was providing security in the region they went to. Now you can talk about interoperability, but in reality, every country trains differently, different ethos and with different ideas. So that's three different training styles being awkwardly mashed together in the field. I'm not saying it can't work, but it hurts cohesion.

Humans are so petty, I hate them.

Why did I waste time typing all this out? Jow Forums clearly isn't interested involved in in depth discussion, and only wants to spam Jow Forums tier posts about "muh arab incompetence".
What a shithole Jow Forums has become.

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>currently beating the US

In what fantasy world did the taliban of Afghanistan 'beat' the US? They got absolutely pounded by ISAF and vaporised whenever they tried any aggression

America knows nothing of infantry combat. All they're good at is dropping ordnance.

Sustained direct combat, long range patrols behind enemy lines, etc. there are NO US forces with these skills.

Only Russia and a few others still maintain infantry skills.

Bait.

>Durr my post got no (you)s now I’m sad

Neck yourself brainlet

I enjoyed your posts Jow Forumsomrade. It was a really nice breakdown of the whole situation.

High quality contribution. Thank you.

There's other stuff to it too. Troops operating alongside ANA and troops training them need to be taught to dial back their expectations. For example illiteracy is unknown in western armies, but fairly common in the ANA.

>being cunning by nature == intelligence

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This.

In general throughout history middle eastern soldiers have made fantastically bad soldiers.

Look up afghan jumping jacks.

There’s a reason why 80,000 soldiers could hold that entire country.

>commanders creaming wages off "shadow soldiers", soldiers that don't actually exist but still draw wages and rations from the government
That's fairly common in developing countries. Causes more problems when the records don't exist/can't be trusted, and you don't have the personnel to verify them personally.

>have homefield advantage
>have limitless zeal because the only thing you're educated in is your backwater religion
>get aid from rich saudis

>American training of hadjis that don't want to fight their cousins for natural gas pipelines
fix'd

>we support dictatorships and cant figure out why its corrupt and lazy and stupid

reminds me of Indians I have worked with
cannot follow procedure have to try to find some halfarsed short cut
just smile at everything like its a joke

>they beat the USSR
Not militarily.
If anything, international pressure and the collapsing situation at home beat the USSR. They pulled out in '89, fell apart three years later.

Your post is great. The kind of thing Jow Forums ought to be.

do them straight at a decent pace for 3-4 minutes... best warm up ever.

>if they didn't want to do something, they'd just fuck off and not do it. Which is an alien concept to a western military mind.
Why is an alien concept that the native population don't want to do what an occupying power tells them?

It’s not that. They do it in every situation of their lives.

Because they'd be better off if they got with the program. Decades of endless strife does nothing for a country.

endless strife caused by foreign powers
>USA encouraging the Mujahideen to fight the reformist government
>Soviet invasion
>USA aiding Mujahideen, bringing foreign fighters to the country, encouraging the spread of religious extremism

>Argument

>You

Don't get pissy you fag. I enjoyed the information.

You're missing the point. Even the afghan soldiers who wanted to fight, and there were a number of them didn't have tolerance for western spit and polish soldiering. They don't see the need for drills.

Again and again they proved to be very brave, but tactically not great. Like they would sit for 40 minutes in a ditch taking fire while the western soldiers called up air support, and then a minute before the controller talked a plane onto target they would get sick of it, jump up and charge the taliban firing mgs from the hip while the controller frantically waves off the pilot. That's the kind of shit they do.
Secondly there's an argument that outside of a few areas, the taliban are pretty much an occupying army themselves. Especially since so many of them although nominally afghani actually grew up in madrassas in Pakistan.

Interesting. Thank you. Good post.

>reformist government
Even in the Soviet Union, there was widespread discontent among elites with what Amin was doing. It was the reckless actions of his regime that provoked the Islamic fundamentalist backlash in the Afghan hinterland. That happened prior to US involvement.

Anyone ever notice that when it comes to these sorts of things, everyone only whines about America doing it? (because they only regurgitate the meme versions they heard?). No one ever complains about the role of, say, China in the Soviet-Afghan war.

>USA encouraging the Mujahideen to fight the reformist government
That's not what happened. At all. It's a lie.
The reformist government was toppled by communists. The communists under Amin wanted to take Afghanistan out of Russia's orbit and make Afghanistan more independant, they invited US specialists to help them industrialise. Russia threw a shitfit about this and summoned the Aghan leader to Moscow like the colonialist overlord it was. He pissed off the politburo by refusing to kiss their rings and so they invaded and killed him.
Then and only then did the US involve itself with the mujahideen.

Why are Russians always such massive liars?

Nah man, thanks for the posts. It's just a never-ending endeavour of frustration discussing it because none of the potential solutions will ever be carried out. Its what happens when you let a military endeavour be ruled by civilian oversight with little to no understanding and a refusal to learn. Seriously the british india plan would have worked excellently when the conflicted was still relatively young but now there are too many afghans in places that would have to be removed to carry it out. If you remove them it would just feed recruits, experience and knowledge to the taliban.

None of the countries involved are willing to spend the money, commit the amount of troops necessary or relax the ROE enough to be efficient. Plus the issues with attempting to turn a tribal psuedo-nation into a real one. A neo-colonistic approach is really the only solution for the next 30 years.

It's a tribal shithole with no easy out and it's an incredibly important strategic location to maintain a serious western presence in with Iran on the western border and China nearly next door. It would be foolish to give up a foothold there. Plus Afghanistan's natural resources are untapped and estimated to be worth over a trillion dollars according to the pentagon. If the war would have been fought like the Malaya emergency maybe things might have been different but no politician wants to touch the issues around Afghanistan at all, its a political black hole.

they're cultural liars, they literally believe as long as a lie is plausible and doesn't hurt anyone it's OK to tell. Obviously this leads to huge amounts of plain old lying with no regard. They also literally think that appeal to authority is a legitimate debate tactic, and that if you can appeal to authority to most f the people in a room you win automatically, even if you were lying, because clearly the *gist* of what your'e saying must be good, because it can't be proved to be physically impossible.

TL;DR their whole culture rejects correct debate

You could probably still do it now. You'd want to take the youngest soldiers you could find and a few of the actual keen ones, cream off the top 1% of afghan officer cadets for platoon leaders, put in an experienced and good western company commander and get some afghans who are actually keen to make up about half your NCOs, with western volunteers making up the rest.
Your western troops would have to rebadge into the Afghan army for the duration of their service which would be like 5-10 years.You'd have to start small, with like 3-4 battalions and take probably a year to train them. Then you'd have to let them prove themselves on the field next to regular ANA to justify expanding the program. It could be done, if the will was there.
Also the good thing would be afghans do care about age of soldiers, so you could take senior NCOs, offer them a good wage to transfer to the ANA as officers and plug them straight in as company commanders. Language would come with time. Some of them would definitely get murdered, which is shitty, but you know, it is war.
It's definitely still doable, if we had the will and if we actually gave a shit about afghanistan. One potential problem would be that you would be reforming society through the army, which might have a permanent effect on how that society would be in the future, but could it bu much worse than the way it's going now? Also hell, Afghans have always been a militaristic people.

American SOF sucks.

>KABUL, Afghanistan — Two United States soldiers were killed during a military operation in Afghanistan on Wednesday, bringing to nine the number of American military fatalities in the country this year.
>The two, part of a Special Forces team, were killed by small-arms fire in southern Uruzgan province, American defense officials said. The soldiers were engaged in a fierce firefight with Taliban militants, with combatants only yards apart at one point, one of the defense officials said.
nytimes.com/2019/06/26/world/asia/afghanistan-american-soldiers-killed.html

>Iraqi army
>competent
Pick one

Oy senpai, i very much enjoyed the breakdown and much appreciate the effort, i am nowhere near your level of expertice so i cannot add value to the discussion so stay out of it much like other anons that stay absent. Getting to my point if the corruption proboem is as prevalent as you say then indeed it is a goatfucker problem just as in slav countries that are corrupt as shit it is a mongol/russian rape face.jpg kind of problem
t. Slav who distanced himsepf from his people over exactly this kind of bs

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Yeah, American infantry is fucking terrible when it comes to actual gun fights without a billion dollars of equipment loitering above them.

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>Why did I waste time typing all this out? Jow Forums clearly isn't interested involved in in depth discussion, and only wants to spam Jow Forums tier posts about "muh arab incompetence".What a shithole Jow Forums has become.

Its a bit like training Afgans.

I worked with ANA and Afghan Commandos while deployed.

Dumbest sack of rocks ever. The whole lot of them. Hardly could operate a radio or service a weapon to save their lives. Once had to do a photoshoot for some propaganda bs and they didn't even know how to shoulder their rifles proper or stack up on a door, had to pose them all individually. Was a fucking joke. Most of the time they had little to no gear, maybe 1-3 mags max, sometimes no extra ammo at all. Very few had plate carriers, even the Afghan SF teams where poorly equipped, most photos had to be done by lending them american gear. When we ran missions with them, they would kinda just stand around aimlessly like a lost child.

Even our best SOF teams can't train absolute brain dead morons to be competent. The Afghans who make it to SF teams are only a shallow step above a normal ANA soldier and probably eclipsed in value by a US grunt who got a 50 on his ASVAB.

The only thing surprising to me about this, is that they didn't throw away their rifles and run away like normal.

Even outside of military affairs, extracting anything of value from Afghanistan would require doing the same thing as this with the entirety of the civilian government, (almost ?) down to the village level.

You set up the east Afghan company. Give it monopolies on a few exportable natural resources and on importing consumer goods and then let it train and appoint its on officers and administrators which can be recruited locally or abroad with experience as a serving officer required to apply for an officer position. Literally copy the British East India company.

I read it and enjoyed it user.

>their best guys, the guys who had like 20 years experience
That sucks. So much experience to be wasted by incompetence.

That would be great to do, if it can be expanded enough you could educate the population through it as the Japanese did in the meiji era. The only problem is no one gives a shit about afghanistan. This would be a literal multi decade long commitment and I just can't see any politician sticking their neck out to push it through.

Getting western men to serve in the ncos and officers ranks would be a huge headache. They would need to be paid extremely well and that could cause some serious conflict between them and the afghans and even then im not sure we could get the numbers

I think he meant "asian"

He should've meant himself.

are iraqi sof better?

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100% yes.

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twitter.com/i/status/1152180423398760454

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>Afghanistan
>ME

>Afghanistan
>Arab

I'm starting to question your genetics now...

Thanks bros.

You are too fucking stupid to be allowed to live. Unironically drink bleach.

Because you have no source and are speaking completely out of your ass so why the fuck should anyone give it the time of day?

Undeniably. They ain't exactly perfection, but they are head and shoulders above anything Afghan.

Interesting. I've also heard their literacy and numeracy is dogshit and they're high all the time, even in combat. Any experience of this?

I get that you're just a trolling bitter ignorant faggot who can't himself imagine other people reading and experiencing shit because he's done nothing but sit in his basement arguing on the internet for 20 years, but if you insist I'll post my bibliography.

Butcher And Bolt, David Loyn
Afghanistan: A Cultural and Political History, Tom Barfield
Small Wars, Far Away Places: The Genesis of the Modern World 1945-65, Michael Burleigh
Taliban: The Power of Militant Islam in Afghanistan and Beyond, Ahmed Rashid
The Great Game: On Secret Service in High Asia, Peter Hopkirk
Farewell Kabul: How the West Ignored Pakistan and Lost Afghanistan, Christina Lamb
Afgantsy: The Russians in Afghanistan, 1979-89, Rodrick Braithwaite
The Good War: Why We Couldn’t Win the War or the Peace in Afghanistan, Jack Fairweather
My experiences, this user

And a bunch of other shit only tangentially related to Afghanistan.

Text-heavy posts like that are better appreciated on /his/

>Uruzgan
>SF
rip SEALS

Forgot
KANDAK: Fighting with Afghans, Patrick Hennessy
Normally I wouldn't bother with a second post, but this is really a great and accurate book on what training the ANA was like. A definite must read if you want to know about the ANA

Afghan freedom fighters winning victory after victory against the American puppet regime.

thanks for the books, user

>muh Jow Forums
>muh this isnt what Jow Forums was like

>Getting western men to serve in the ncos and officers ranks would be a huge headache. They would need to be paid extremely well and that could cause some serious conflict between them and the afghans and even then im not sure we could get the numbers
I dunno. Lots of guys join up for the adventure. What bigger adventure could there be than getting to command your own tribal warriors in a foreign land, come back in a few years with some exotic stories. That's be the way I'd shill it to the younger guys.
The hard sell would be to try and convince career NCOs and career officers with families on this who already have years and years of experience on this.

Where did I mention Jow Forums?

>training
Nah, this level of fuckup always comes from shitty intel or in the case of the Afghans the enemy having spies with clearance.

There's only so much you can do when the trainees disregard your advice or commands and you can't really punish them.

How do we end the Taliban once and for all Jow Forums?

How many soldiers, civil servants and administrative personnel are you willing to devote to a decades-long project?

And that's unfortunately the problem, those career NCOs and officers are the key for it. The guys joining for adventure would be fine down the line once a competant NCO and officers corps is established.

The idea of an Afghan East India Company is a great one but learning from the errors of the East India Company would be paramount and making sure it isn't abused by the Multinational companies or banks

Stop overthrowing governments and the area will settle down after a couple of generations without intervention.