Why did Germany build the most useless warship ever? What's going wrong with Germany's navy?

It has no weapons

>What's going wrong with Germany's navy?

the same thing that's been going on for the past 150 years - nothing. the german "navy" has never accomplished anything of any consequence.

You're a genuine faggot.

Shipbuilding is hard and has long lead times. If your a cash strapped navy and ships are needed to fill a critical roles you cant just cancel it and start over because that process can take another 10-20 years. Some shitty ships that you can tinker with and hopefully fix to make them at least usable are better than no ships at all. A 20 year gap in ship building can destroy a navy.

They were powerful in the First World War.

t. butthurt kraut shit

they didn't do shit in WW1 and lost the only battle they sailed into

>They were powerful in the First World War.

Ah, yes. So powerful and mighty that the *entire fleet was destroyed* at the end of that war. Very powerful. Yes.

Being powerful doesn't mean you are going to win against the largest navy in the world.

Don't you remember what happened last time?

You can't add major weapon systems to them, they are heavily overweight as is.

They’re not even sexy, you know it’s sad when Russia builds the sexiest frigates in the world
Let’s hope the USN modifies the F100s or FREMM for the FFGX program

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Exactly. I seriously hope you don't think military geniuses are allowed into German politics

I think the Type 26 would be something to look at, it'd really add a huge amount of interoperability between NATO nations.

Too many politicians wanted it to do everything, and changed its mission multiple times during the build. The shipyard got so fucked off that they fucked up the build and the Kriegsmarine (for first time ever) sent it back. It was politically a very difficult thing to do, and hats off to the dude who sent it back. They are packed full of electronic wizardry, so its probably quite a good EW platform, but in a straight fight its a jack of all master of none.

There was a very good thread the other week about the Baden-Württemberg class.
It's almost wrong to consider them warships and doing so is where people see where it is obviously lacking. It's more a peacekeeping ship to deter insurgents and pirates. Hence the relatively light weaponry.
The large size, and resulting displacement for what is called a frigate, are due to the fact that there's a lot of redundant systems aboard the ship. If something breaks then there is a backup that can be used so the mission can continue. Missions which are intended to be long duration if an area experiences consistent strife.
Did the German Navy need to build them? Not really, they were expensive for Germany and had problems during the sea trials.
However, after reading about the class, I see where Germany as a strong economic power and leader of EU was going with their line of thinking. These are not built for a conventional war.

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You haven't heard about Kalinigrad?
You haven't heard about that Germany is a NATO country?
You haven't heard anything about yet.

>be kraut
>its 1916
>have your one chance to beat the brits at sea
>throw everything you have, even obsolete dreadnoughts and dogshit cruisers into it, lay submarine ambush and minefields
>brits only bring what they have in their home-fleet, their obsolete ships are elsewhere
>have best parity of numbers you are ever going to get, fucking ever
>go into it with superior positioning, opening salvo, gunnery, and damage control
>end up running away after losing several of your newest and best ships because even your best is not enough for the brits
>only reason your fleet survive because the brits are too stupid to find you in a fog bank
>despite literally ramming your own ships several times
>spend rest of war trapped in port being a useless drain on resources

I wouldn't even call the Kaiserliche Marine powerful considering they were a continental power and Wilhelm's autistic love of naval ships is one of the things that helped draw Britain into the war in the first place.

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Sexy ship

Exactly.
The MKS180 can be a convetional warship then, depending on it's installed module.

Think of them more like coast guard ships then naval warships.

Sure, the whole concept behind them might be stupid, but once you understand that they were built for that concept the design sort of makes sense.

German Naval Production peaked around 1937, its been downhill ever since.

Not that the German Navy ever does anything meaningful. A trip across the north sea is considered a major deployment.

We build some similar ships for Border Patrol in Russia. Big and lightly armored, but comfy to the crew as fuck. Designed for prolonged patrol periods. Crews love 'em. And the armament is more than enough for scurrying the pirate scum.

BTW what are the hatches at the sides of this thing?

That's always a positive.

I think some are too harsh on the German Navy right now. Berating them historically for trying (when they would obviously fail against the Royal Navy), and now berating them for not trying to be a large naval power. There's no impending war so Germany does not need to have a large force. As a Navy they have relatively few combat ships (mostly aimed at air defense) and even those seem to have trouble being maintained sometimes.

Arr rook same desu

Honestly they don't even need a navy. What oversea bases does Germany have?

The doors on the side are for launching four rigid-inflatable boats.

Reminds me of a baller ass sport fishing boat

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German here. Can someone tell me what's the point of building another Frigate (MKS180) when we already have like 4 Frigate types?

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>Yeah they are pretty heavy and large ship for such a small amount of weapons
because the German Navy is limited by Treaty Restrictions.
But once shit hits the fan and Nato gives the green light they have a large frame to mount more armaments and the displacement to back it up.

Different role

>MEKO is a registered trademark. The portmanteau stands for "Mehrzweck-Kombination" (English: multi-purpose-combination). It is a concept in modern naval shipbuilding based on modularity of armament, electronics and other equipment, aiming at ease of maintenance and cost reduction. MEKO ships include families of frigates, corvettes and ocean-going patrol boats.

It's the cheap jack-of-all-trades.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with german engineering. Engineering comes up with *what they are asked for*, not "the best money can buy but without any costs - just "engineer" the money-spending part to go away please!".

You really, really need to understand that the customer puts in X amount of money and X amount of requirements, then the engineering department tells the customer if it is even remotely realistic. Not the other way around, you don't get good engineering if you don't pay for it because the further away you go form off-the-shelf parts, the more development you have to do, which is (in turn) pure money spending.

TLDR; it is not shit, it is what the money gets the customer.

t. mechanical engineer for 10+ years

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if some is good more is better

Then why not build some destroyers?

Russian navy = one of the worst in the world.

Their planning starts from the idea that the enemy is going to sink most of them. But such is life in poor Russia.

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You guys are all about digital surveillance and subsequently doing your best at the Baltic Sea.
Exactly as us Finns are doing at Finnish Bay.

who lost more ships at the doggerbank again?

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At least Germany still has shipyards left which are capable of building ships

rip Harland and Wolff and the rest of the British shipbuilding industry!

Add missiles and whatever was "somewhat non-threatening in peacetime" becomes "deadly" in wartime, for Russia.

It's a matter of current politics instead of military, really. Russia doesn't understand what it is doing, the old WW2-to-Cold-war -ideology where Europe was already won is past.

But for being fools, they pay the price. Doesn't matter to anyone in the west, Russia being the aggressor.

Yeah. Completely true.

How did the Battle of Heligoland Bight and the Battle of the Falkland Islands end again?

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People who judge naval assets solely by the amount of weapons they carry are genuinely retarded.

Thank God Russia is back and not letting "Western Liberal Democracy" do as it pleases. The 1991-to-2007 period is the worst period in the history of Mankind, but now the West gets proper response.

Don't you start this shit again. Ukraine used to move from EU to Russia an other way around for preferences. When Maidan almost succeded, Russia offered 15 billion $ without any conditions, just to keep things positive. Ukraine decided to suck EU's dick for 3. And while Crimea (which used to be autonomous state btw) went in jurisdiction vacuum, ukrainians decided to move away the Russian fleet from Sevastopol against all the treaties and from the base prepaid for years to come. Considering Sevastopol was and is pro-Russian city and bearing in mind Turkey had some claims for Crimea from somewhat XIX century, Russia was forced to retaliate. It was lose-lose situation for us, frankly speaking. Sevastopol was and is the only base suitable for Black Sea fleet. But now you can blah blah all your vatnik greentext shit to back up your point of view. And completely ignoring the fact, that EU organised economical expansion to the Ukraine, feeding its nationalist movenents. And from Russian point of view - EU and US are agressors. Truth loes in the middle. There are no good guys here. But I doubt you can keep up with such complicated concept.

>There are no good guys here
Yes, the guys that didn't invade another country

You're on Jow Forums, what did you except? A thorough understanding of modern naval warfare and distributed lethality?

Germany is not a major naval power and doesn't even have a good reason to have a powerful navy. As a result it builds just enough ships to say, "we have a navy" and calls it a day.

No no no.
Those ships are all about surveillance while armed to the teeth. In particular against submarines.
Baltic sea is no joke regarding NATO.

Like Nuland offering cookies in Maidan. Amirite?

Country which officials resigned all the treaties and declared russian people subject to lynch law. Just re-read what I wrote. Our diplomacy failed so we conducted military op, backed up by the most of local population. While I assure you, Western PMCs were in the area, and played thei role at Maidan. And now here we are to blame. Just re-read my previous post and get along with it. The tread is about German frigate, for fucks sake, not your personal grudge against anyone.

>Thank God Russia is back and not letting "Western Liberal Democracy" do as it pleases. The 1991-to-2007 period is the worst period in the history of Mankind, but now the West gets proper response.
Pure propaganda straight out of the kremlin. The West literally saved Russia's ass during the 90s only for Russia to revert back to it's belligerent ways as soon as it wasn't starving anymore.

research.policyarchive.org/914.pdf
tech.mit.edu/V113/N17/russia.17w.html

So because *maybe* there are foreign spec ops in a foreign country (big if - look at Poland vs Ukraine, it's not hard to decide if you live better in the EU or in Russia) you can just invade and take a good chunk of it?
Shut up, vatnik

Not the same you replied to, but it looks like Ukraine went full independence regardless of Russian bribes.

A Full Independence is something to be valued.

The German Navy operated 112 Tornados, with other words 1/3 of all German Tornados were part of the Navy.

Indeed.

>he doesn't know

The west-saving-russia spiel is NYT-tier pap for midwits. Western finance helped the slavs by helping them sell out, prolonging the post-communism rot.

The west shipped tons of free food to Russia, supported Moscow over the separatists that were popping up left and right and gave them financial aid to "prolonge post-communism rot"? Are you literally retarded?

> supported Moscow over the separatists that were popping up left and right
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

So what happens to it when it faces an actual warship like a Slava class or Kirov

This same thing happens in North Korea. The pig face just takes the credit from it.

>less armament than an LCS
>twice the tonnage of an LCS

This is pretty much on point. Apart from that we had to get them, they were planned we thought our main missions would be maritime policing on the horn of African and the Mediteranian, They had a lot of issues due to how they were build and planned, so they were delayed and now we expect to face a different catalogue of threads in the futures where these ships aren't useful for.

How ever due to the way they were build they can still be outfitted with a VLS and additional AShM.

The long delay was caused by having nearly every shipbuilder in Germany get a bite of the cake, so sections were build in different shipyards and as it had to be every sections ended up on another end of the tolerances, so they didn't really fit. And in addition every little thing on them is fully automatic, remote controlled and has multiple redundancies. Which allows for a very small crew, but also took a bunch of time to get working.

122 will be phased out by this year and the end for 123 is starting to become a topic. 124 only consists of 3 ships highly specialized on AAW and soon BMD. The 125 only has ASuW capabilities. A new class of submarine hunters with limited AAW capabilities will be needed. The MKS will provide a platform that can be modified to fit for each deployment which makes it the reasonable choice to get our tonnage up again. We have far to few ships to fulfill all our obligations with NATO, EU and national schemes.

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There were sightings of Blackwater and unnamed Polish contractirs in the conflict. And of course nobidy discloses that. Poland was in EU, while Ukraine us EU Associate which is very, very different. And by the way, it was you who brought all this politics crap here and while I tried to play it constructive, YOU insist on going south. So YOU zip your bloody piehole and don't you vatnik me here.

Indeed. And independence also mean responsibility. Our democracies are young and all the way fucked up. So we learn it hard way.

Yes...blast them with sanctions but you are saving them. Fucking yankees and bootlickers-of-yankees should all fucking die.

>Western Liberal Democracy
>Independent
.t NATO internet shill

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Actually wasn't even me. Neither I'm from Eastern Europe. I just can't stand your slimy vatnik expansionism. Fact: you don't need black ops to convince people that life is better out of Russian controlled shitholes. There is a reason why every one of them hates your guts

All those gays in that picture and there's still less AIDS than in Russia

True.

Start saying hello to Cultural Enrichment (tm)!

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I don't think the Baden-Württemberg can install VLS. Nothing I've seen has said they can. The ability to upgrade seems limited because she's already heavy, so any upgrades like that would come at the cost of removing other systems. At most her anti-ship capability is the Harpoon missiles and the 127mm gun.
The Sachsen calss seems like Germany's primary warship for the present.
There were tests done in the early 2000s with putting the PzH 2000's 155mm gun turret and an improved fire control system onto both classes of ships but it was deemed too expensive.

and dont forget the autism revolt after chilling 2 years in the harbor

To address the other point >The long delay was caused by having nearly every shipbuilder in Germany get a bite of the cake, so sections were build in different shipyards and as it had to be every sections ended up on another end of the tolerances, so they didn't really fit.
That does sound like a mess. Fine to want to give different shipyards and companies a chance to build for defense contracts but it seems like it would have been wiser to have each ship built entirely by one yard (if they could handle it.)
Is there another case, in Germany or outside, of things being done that way? It sounds odd to me. Explaining where the problems began and why the Navy initially rejected it.

t. the country with the highest amount of Muslims in Europe

>the fucking kike

Look, if you want to talk, just make an effort to show you even slightly respect other position. You behave yourself like its Manifest Destiny itself is up your ass, you'll be treated equally. Now off with you. There is a reason lots of people hate burger guts too.

They can they have room for two VLS cells, that's why there is a platform in front of the RAM. The only system that would need to be removed for that is the forward fitness room. Harpoon were fitted until RBS-15 was fully approved by the Navy and is to be slowly replaced throughout the fleet.
You are right in that 124 will be our main type until MKS is in service, but wrong with the 155mm it was too heavy, the ships were build for easy refit with the new gun and there were enough guns available due to the reduction of the Army's artillery branch. But fitting the heavier gun and heavier ammunition would have reduced the VLS payload.
the idea was that every shipyard would build the same modules four times which would have been cheaper. I don't think any other nation did this, but in Germany arms contracts are sometimes a bit strange, and this totally isn't connected to bribing of public officials or companies being located in certain electoral districts

Thanks for the corrections, I'm interested in learning more about these ships an the modern German Navy in general.
Installing VLS sounds like something that would only be done in actual war. The Harpoons, and the eventual RBS-15, means the ship does still have some amount of anti-ship capability. It's just not the surface-warfare / AA focused ship some would expect when they see the frigate designation. I almost wonder if that designation was a mistake, but I also can't think of a more fitting one.

>the idea was that every shipyard would build the same modules four times which would have been cheaper.
I understand that, but I could also see the problem of all those pieces not necessarily fitting together perfectly. Which is what happened at first. With problems on the first ship fixed, the others should ideally come together more smoothly.
From my understanding as an American, the US builds everything for one ship at the same yard. Things are fully built in sections and then assembled there so any problems can be addressed quickly.

>this totally isn't connected to bribing of public officials or companies being located in certain electoral districts
That often plays a role as well. I could see the German government wanting to be "nice" and give multiple firms a piece of the pie, I could also see some politicians making sure their district is providing components.

WISH WE COULD TURN BACK TIME.

Did the Soviets actually expected to operate anything in the Baltic?

For the Virginia class, NNS and General Dynamics EB do this. Each yard will build sections (certain sections we always build, certain sections they always build, other sections each yard builds for itself), and then ship the yard specific sections to the other yard. Then we alternate completing and launching subs.

Similar to how it’ll work for the upcoming Columbia, although we don’t have the space to launch those so we’ll just send all our completed sections to EB who will do final assembly and launch.

They had the largest fleet there. 232 warships, including 32 diesel submarines, 328 combat aircraft and 70 helicopters, 16 coastal defense units.

We just use frigate for the big ships and corvette for the small ones, they are names by mission not tonnage.

They moved most of their assets to the Northern Fleet because they didn't expect to break out of the Baltic.

Those are 1990 numbers. And they didn't want to break out of the Baltic, 1991-to-now proves who the real Imperialists were/are...their doctrine was purely defensive.

>1991-to-now proves who the real Imperialists were/are
Yup. It showed that the USSR was nothing but the colonial empire of Russia as evidenced by the flight of former East bloc countries under the NATO mantle at the first opportunity and as evidenced by the invasions of Georgia and Ukraine at the first regaining of military power by Russia.

Why is Russia so imperialist?

>How ever due to the way they were build they can still be outfitted with a VLS and additional AShM.
They can't, they are overweight as is.

What's so bad about them?

>Being powerful doesn't mean you are going to win against the largest navy in the world.

then what does it mean to "be powerful"? absolutely nothing? it means that you're going to lose every battle you enter and then your country loses the war? doesn't sound like "being powerful" means anything at all.

or is this just a disability that only german people have? after all, I have also been told that the german army and air force were also "very powerful" and yet every branch of the german armed forces has lost every single war it has ever been involved in. I'm beginning to think it's just a german problem to be "very powerful" and yet incapable of obtaining victory. it seems like other "very powerful" nations never have this problem.

The sanctions only happened 20 years later when Russia had started a war in europe