Tactical Shotguns

I like how you chose to ignore the ammo type distinction when you made your post. You cheeky boy, you.

>less effective range
Perfectly fine for 50ft.

>less capacity
Enough to matter.

>longer reload time
Depends on the gun, some use detachable magazines.

>more recoil
Not that much.

>18.5” barrel instead of 16” for non-NFA
26.5" OAL 'Firearm' with a pistolgrip and brace, bam.

>overpenetrates compared to intermediate rifle rounds
That will really depend on what you compare to. 00 Buck will go through a lot of interior wall, but so will M193 Ball, if you use something like #4 Buck, it'll penetrate interiors far less, and it'll still kill perfectly fine.

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in general I agree though i suppose there's some level of argument for the barrel length. also, at normal defense ranges (10 yds? 20? don't really know) what's the hit advantage? it's got to be pretty insignificant right?

xm193 penetrates less than any of other common round. #4 Buck still goes through more.

>implying police departments aren’t completely phasing them out for patrol rifles, aside from use for euthanizing animals

Fudd pls go

for patrol cars you're absolutely right. but at least in my area they still hold onto them pretty much exclusively for breaching

You are correct that at the average defense distance the hit probability advantage is fairly small. It's been a while since I read up on it, but I think the average spread is about 4" for a typical defensive shot with a shotgun. Still, 4" vs. 0.22" is an advantage.

>#4 Buck still goes through more.
00 certainly does, but not #4.

Nope.
youtube.com/watch?v=CiHHgjaR0TI

>Why would anyone use pic related instead of an AR-15 or other rifle for defense?
Because they want to blow a fuckhuge hole in something at short range.
>less effective range
So? For the applications that people iuse shotguns for, that's not an issue. How many 100-yard hallways do you have in your house?
>less capacity
Not an issue. Nobody's getting up from getting hit with 12 gauge buckshot, so you don't need to shoot them more than once to incapacitate them.
>longer reload time
Try topping off your AR as you go. Oh, that's right, you can't.
>more recoil
Have you tried not being a pussy?
>18.5” barrel instead of 16” for non-NFA
I'm not operating in literal Vietcong tunnels, so that doesn't make any difference.
>overpenetrates compared to intermediate rifle rounds
Not with a properly-selected defensive round.

>>less effective range
>Perfectly fine for 50ft.
Slugs are effective out to 75 yards(225 feet) according to the NFA. I’ve take multiple deer with slugs between 50 and 75 yards, I’ve heard of people killing deer out to 100 yards.
A shotgun in the right hands is very effective past 50 feet

>Only if you choose your ammo poorly.
Yeah there's #1 buck which has the best balance between lethality and lower collateral than 00 buck, but it's less common
>the shotty does have an advantage in hit probability
Only outdoors of if you have a big ass house. In most defensive situations the pattern will be just a few inches. If you were going to miss with a handgun/rifle you're gonna miss that shot with a shotgun too.
>different materials react differently
What a surprise! Yeah, M193 will punch through AR500 at close range and cause less collateral than 00 buck when shot through walls. Funny how that works.

>overpenetrates compared to intermediate rifle rounds
>Not with a properly-selected defensive round.
bullshit
everything worth using for defense over penetrates because over penetration is incredibly vague and people have stupid expectations of bulletproof materials hey this trash can can stop a bullet just like on tv and general fear mongering. oh it went through a wall that means it over penetrates.
any bullet that cant make it through american drywall and 2x4s isnt capable of killing a person reliably.
if it cant "over penetrate" then its not good enough to kill.

Whenever someone mentions a shotgun for home defense, you get edge lords getting pissy at the idea and then bringing up muh overpenetration! But what if you live in the country where your nearest neighbor is very far away? What then? A 12 gauge with buckshot will stop an intruder. Now obviously an AR-15 is better if you have to deal with multiple intruders, but assuming you have a semi auto magazine fed shotgun, such as a VEPR, and you don't have neighbors to worry about penetration, would that shotgun be better than something like an AR or a PCC? If not, then why not?

>massively superior stopping power
>versatility of loads
>massively lower over penetration risk with properly selected loads
The most risk adverse, and therefore prudent, HD strategy is staying static and camping a fatal funnel with a 12g shotgun loaded with #1 buck. This strategy provides the most minimal chance of an attacker having a chance yo get a round off at you, and in general has been the winningist JD strategy for at least a couple hundred years now. Ill admit that assault weapons are much better choices for fantasy larping about fighting off cartel hit squads though.

>assault weapons

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>In most defensive situations the pattern will be just a few inches. If you were going to miss with a handgun/rifle you're gonna miss that shot with a shotgun too.

There are plenty of cases where a 2" radius shot blast might hit where a normal bullet might miss. And don't forget it's not just a case of hit vs. miss, it's also a case of hitting something vital. Which gives you a better chance of hitting a major artery or CNS: a single .22 projo? Or 30-some odd number of them?

>There are plenty of cases where a 2" radius shot blast might hit
and all of them involve missing the target by under 2 inches
The statistical probability of scoring a hit through a narrow miss is lower than actually fucking hitting the target.
>Which gives you a better chance of hitting a major artery or CNS: a single .22 projo?
are we talking about .22lr or a .224 inch diameter bullet weighting it at above 55gr and travelling at above 2500 fps?

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>i dont understand terminal ballistic, the post

>What do those things have to do with defense?

Sorry, I didn't read your post. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and thought you weren't a stupid person. Now I see that I was in error. I promise to not make this mistake again and always regard you from the outset as a stupid person who should not be replied to under any circumstances. If you could assist me by adopting a tripcode, that would be appreciated.

>saying other people are wrong makes them wrong without me needing to prove it

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fuck, meant for

It's fantastic for killing yourself. If you don't believe me then give it a shot.

They’re also really handy if you have a fire and have to breach a door to make your way into/out of a room

>arbitrary incorrect fps number for tsc to pwc transition
>implying implications about TSC in gel directly equalling PWC in flesh
>entire argument is just a question
Doesnt deserve much more tbqh. If you knew anything about terminal ballistics then youd know that 16 .3" projectiles have a much greater hit probability in respect to compromising a critical organ or the spinal cord than the moderately larger than caliber hole produced by an expanding 5.56 projectile for part of its penetration depth.

>missing the point this hard
I took issue with your description of an intermediate rifle caliber as a ".22 projo"
>"arbitrary incorrect fps number for tsc to pwc transition"
I just spout off a number to accommodate for pistol ARs, it has nothing to do with temporary stretch cavity

>took issue with your...
Im not that guy.
>it was just a random number
Sure. Doesn't change that you're wrong though, theres a large gap in terms of both raw wound volume and hit probability of critical structures between expanding .223/5.56 and a properly loaded shotgun. Particularly at moderate defensive distances.

I can buy a decent tactical shotgun $300 or even $400 cheaper than a PSA or M&P 15. Also a Mossberg Shockwave negates the size issue and people have legally fit them with braces and pistol grip. It still costs less than a bottom barrel AR.

They're pretty fucking neato user

I do this with a 500gr 458 Socom

Because a couple shells of #4 buck will amputate limbs / allow one to see daylight through a torso.

Because you only live once and if you only do practical things you live a sad life.

I leave one in the house for my wife because shes a shit shot.

How do you get "trapped in New York for 3 years?" What do you do for a living?

The real benefit of tactical shotgun loaded with buck isn't that the spread will make you more likely to hit the target rather than miss, its that when you hit the target it's more likely to cause enough damage to stop them in that one hit.
9+/- bullets all hitting within 4 inches of each other simultaneously is going to cause massive damage and shock compared to a single 5.56
Stopping power isn't a meme when it comes to buckshot.

This, aside from high power rifle rounds or other cartridges designed specifically for that purpose (like .458 socom) a chest full of 00 buck will take down anyone

>implying you know how to properly breach a door

Cost. The only thing the shotgun has over a carbine as far as defense goes is wounding capacity.

>$300 cheaper than a PSA
psa is like $300, 350 tops with tax, where are you getting a tactical shotgun for $50-100 at most

I have an AR-15 and want a shotgun. Any reason I shouldn’t get an O/U if I’ll use the AR for HD

>Why would anyone use pic related instead of an AR-15 or other rifle for defense?

You try handloading skittles and cum rounds for a 5.56.

On the fly ammo selection. The ability to go from less lethal, to buck to slug is the reason to use a scatter gat over an AR.

Whether or not that is important is up to you.

I unironically run slugs through mine for work. And by work I mean fugitive recovery. And heres the photo so you can fuck off. I aint larping.

If I run into gangbangers with full auto weapons in body armor, I may only get a chance to get one shot off. That shot needs maximum lethality. I hunt criminals who don't care about law (duh) so a semi auto AR will aways lose to a full auto AK74.

If they are wearing plate (which they often do) then the impact alone collapses a lung even if it doesn't penetrate. My follow up kills em. Also good idea to run constant drills with handgun.

Also I consistently hit center mass at 75yds, most urban engagements (where all of my hunting happens - the ghetto) are less then that. There is no hope of grouping with even accurate slugs, but you can reliably hit torso over and over.

Bonus, your target make it to a car because you spooked him? Slug will kill any engine block immediately.

So for me, its perfect (7+1 Mossberg 930). If you are part of a SWAT team then duh, carbines or smgs, with pointman having a pump or semi for breaching.

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Small arms fire won’t reliably stop a car’s engine. At all. Also, good luck getting in a gun fight with 7+1

>Small arms fire won’t reliably stop a car’s engine. At all. Also, good luck getting in a gun fight with 7+1

Ive already had both of these happen. Again, the shotgun is not my primary, my sidearm actually is. I'm not "operating" in a warzone. This is a niche job I do. You ever been shot at by gangfaggots? They cant shoot for shit. They literally just mag dump or spray. They are morons. Calm, calculated shots beat wild spray. Unless your just unlucky, or you put yourself in a bad spot.

My job isnt to engage multiple targets. And Im not humping it in afghanistan with this shit. Im ambushing a (usually) lone target or at most I've dealt with three. Anymore and I need a team of my own, and in that case see my above post about running SWAT style ops.

And you don't know shit about engines. Go shoot your front end with a slug. See if that shit still runs. Less your in a Merkava, it aint gassing anymore.

this is the larpingest larp that ever larped a larp

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Shotguns are just like any other tool. Some jobs they are needed for, some they do well but in a different way, and some jobs they cant do at all. Pick the tool thats right for the job you need it for. If you dont know what that is, then stick with a general use tool, like an AR which can do most things pretty well.

>Also, good luck getting in a gun fight with 7+1
Oh, it's another one of you idiots who think a real-world self defense/home defense shooting will be like something out of a TV show, and will go on for ten minutes with a couple dozen rounds fired. The only problem with this is that it bears no resemblance to anything that happens in the real world. The average round count in those kinds of encounters is 2-3; finding credible reports of round counts over 5 is rare, and over 10 is basically unheard of. You're not going to get jumped by Robocop or the police from Jin-Roh. Try living in the real world.

>#4 Buck still goes through more.
00 certainly does, but not #4.

Based and Harrellpilled

>less effective range
doesn't matter for the applications it's put to
>less capacity
remember that each round has a multitude of projectiles
>longer reload time
sure, but shotguns possess the capability to be reloaded one round at a time, unlike a semi auto rifle where there's a dry period
>more recoil
sure, but you're getting significantly more projectiles per shot
>18.5” barrel instead of 16” for non-NFA
completely fair point. this is more of a dumbfuck legality than anything against the design itself, though, and there are some niggardly ways around length limitations
>overpenetrates compared to intermediate rifle rounds
fair point

>reload shotgun for 1 second
>1 round
>reload rifle for 1 second
>30 rounds
>implying the shotgun has an advantage in this

Defense in what context? Because any home invaders are 99% likely to not being wearing armor. And 12ga 00 buck will absolutely fuck someone up within home defense range.

you're missing the point. reloading a rifle is an all-or-nothing endeavor (with the exception of maybe 1 round in the chamber). shotguns, in contrast, can be continuously topped off.

Just tac-load any time during those 30 rounds to top off the rifle

Eh, unless you like the aesthetics or plan on doing competitive clays, a pump will be more convenient. (For starters, you only have 1 barrel to clean.)

>where are you getting a tactical shotgun for $50-100 at most
Four winds, baybee.

Because i live in a cuck state. Fuck you

Might do an O/U like a Beretta 686 solely for the clays. Already have an AR for HD and I don’t hunt so I don’t see what else I’d use it for

As someone who's seen liveleak videos of people being shot with buckshot ontop of growing up playing COD world at war and shit. Buckshot scares me almost on a instinctual level which is why I use it for home defense, I also live alone in the middle of nowhere with security cameras so dont care about overpenetration or being caught off guard (unless I'm sleeping which I keep a loaded 9mm on my nightstand) ARs are nice and plan to get one for comfort but shotguns are cheap and sling alot of lead

>If they are wearing plate (which they often do) then the impact alone collapses a lung even if it doesn't penetrate.
-3/10

on the subject, will I put on a watch list if I purchase breaching munitions online?

Different user but I couldnt imagine getting hit by a slug even with a plate on would feel good, maybe not collapsed lung but that energys gotta be transferred somewhere

00 Buck is the equivalent of mag dumping someone with a .380 with every pull of the trigger.
Shotguns fuck shit up at close range
>overpenetrates compared to intermediate rifle rounds
No
youtube.com/watch?v=CiHHgjaR0TI

>not being able to burn the intruder alive and employ a scorched earth policy by torching everything else in your home to stop a second robbery.

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Sir isaac newton disagrees with you. If the slug being fire doesnt injure the shooter with the force dispersed across the relatively small surface area of s stock then it will not harm the target when dispersed across their entire chest.
Back plate deformation of a non-hardened steel plate that is not to armor spec will hurt because much of the force will still be concentrated on a small area. A proper plate will not have any deformation from a slug.

>plate is hard
>plate is literally specifically rated to stop similar energy projectiles moving at a much greater rate of speed ergo increasing peak forces
>being rated to "stop" a bullet also means being rated to prevent enough transference of energy(measured via back face deformation) as to prevent any serious injury
>plate being hard and having a frontal area of most of your chest means that this energy is spread out over most of your chest instead of one spot
Learn how to into physics or basic logic, guy. Or just go out there and watch the multiple videos on the clearnet of people taking repeated .308 or 12g loads to the chest with at best mild annoyance instead. Ain't any cheating physics. Recoil = energy of ejecta. Impact energy = energy of projectile at distance(AKA less than ejecta as there aren't any gases/unburnt powder/etc and projectiles have lost some energy). Impact force through a plate = energy of projectile at a distance over a surface area dozens of times larger than the stock of a shotgun. Quick maths tell you that if the recoil of a shotgun isn't breaking shoulders into powder than it aint gonna be flooring people wearing hard armor either.

Not that user, but he is right
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flail_chest
Blunt trauma is no joke

You need to go back to physics class

If the shotgun slug had enough energy to fracture multiple ribs on impact with a plate then the shotgun being fired would have enough energy to break your arm and/or pull your shoulder out of socket just from firing. Sir Isaac Newton was a very smart man.

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>blunt trauma can be dangerous
>therefore hes right about a specific activity causing blunt trauma
You're an idiot.

Good counterpoint, faggot. Why dont you point out the flaw in the logic? Oh right, you cant.
>inb4 BUT DA INERSHER OF DA SHAWTGONNE
>conveniently forgets that both the target andnhis armor have a mass far greater than that of the shotgun.

>Trapped in New York

you're not missing much user. Bozeman is turning into a mini jew york, missoula is basically empty due to the rape allegations and hippies. Hamilton got a new bio lab so thats fucked.

t. Bozemanite

you are a moron, the weight of the shotgun is more than the weight of the projectile, also you have this thing that goes up called stock which if used properly mitigates recoil

The weight of the target is more than the weight of the projectile, faggot. Whats your point? Used properly a steel plate helps to mitigate impact. From a physics perspective it is literally the same thing.

Based and dogpilled

>plan B

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What's better, one 5.56 mm hole in the enemy per second, or nine 8.3 mm holes, spread over a coin/fist-sized area? Self-loading shotguns are an undisputed king of home defense. You can use AR for HD just fine, and it is much more versatile, but against an unarmored target at

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What the hell is this?

looks like inside a second or 2 of entering the door you'd be drenched in some kind of chemically active foam that is also exploding

i like to think the burglar would just be fully encased in hardened foam somewhere suspended feet above the ground unable to move and wondering what poor life choices led him to be encased in harded foam

Well that's pretty obvious, I'm wondering about the specifics of what was filmed in the video.

>None of these are relevant for the average defense situation.
Agreed.
>Depends entirely on ammo selection.
Not whatsoever. Only how MUCH more depends on selection.
>Who cares?
Compact is objectively better for defense, as is lighter. Both these things are inherent to a lower threshold of barrel length, moreover 18" of shotgun barrel is redundant and performs nearly identical to 12-14" due to the dimensions and powder of most shot shell loads.
>Only if you choose your ammo poorly.
>Not to mention that the shotty does have an advantage in hit probability.
Choosing ammo poorly would be choosing ammo that doesnt have the capacity to over penetrate. If you're using birdshot you are flat out wrong, #4 buck should be the bare minimum and that has comparable penetration to common 5.56 rounds. The only real concern in the penetration argument is knowing what's behind your target.
Also, bigger hit probability (even if it's just a few inches) is also a bigger miss probability, so this is a double edged argument.
>I agree with you that a compact AR is probably a better choice, but the reasons you give are pretty lame.
I ain't even that guy but nah those are all fair.
>What do those things have to do with defense?
Every factor has to do with defense, some in large ways some negligible. Reality is a shotgun is perfectly fine for it, but isn't 100% min/max'd and only autists get caught up in the minutiae.

Ok snake pilskin

nice larp

youtube.com/watch?v=HvS_SrrHQ8Q

For all you retards who failed high school physics. There's zero backface deformation after being with 2 slugs. That means what the target enemy would have felt is his chest being pushed in with the same force as the recoil you felt in your shoulder as you fired the shotgun. If there is no deformation of the plate, there is zero effect on target. Zero.

0/10 larp
literally every single thing you said in your post is a lie

Right, right, but that still means it's also perfectly fine within 50ft, so I'm technically not wrong.

Shot is more likely to land hits per trigger pull.

More variable ammo for different targets (solid slugs for wrecking car engines, beanbags for non-lethal)

can be made lighter than AR-15.

A 12g with slugs would do better than an AR for SD against large dangerous animals. It's all about your situation.

>>less effective range
>>less capacity
>>longer reload time
Irrelevant for most situations
>>more recoil
Not really, you can shoot 3 1/2 inch magnum shells and it'll be pretty manageable
.5” barrel instead of 16” for non-NFA
Doesn't make much of a difference
>>overpenetrates compared to intermediate rifle rounds
Good thing i can pick and choose my shotgun loads for any situation from home defense, hunting, target shooting, less than lethal, breaching, etc.
>Why would anyone use pic related instead of an AR-15 or other rifle for defense?
Pump-action shotguns are reliable, consistent in close quarters, and scary as hell to be on the other side of.

This. How are people who claim to be dedicated to guns so ignorant about them?