I fucking hate that Christianity is trying to convince us that we are all sinners the moment we are born...

Looks like someone hasn't read scripture carefully enough. Upon the moment when Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, all future generations were to be born with sin innately, hence why baptism is required.

Nothing to do with jesus faggot, no human being is born with the knowledge of the right thing to do in every situation they will ever be in, nobody lives their entire life doing everything right.

Basically start loving jesus and stop being arrogant.

retard atheist who never read the bible but presumes to judge it with his shit tier opinion.

You worship Jesus because he's the archetypal perfect man that you should strive to be even though its impossible to actually achieve. Praying is an external effort to understand yourself so that you can better take action for yourself.

There is no valid evidence to even prove Jesus existence.
How exactly does praying help understand yourself? There is barely any self reflection required. Any degenerate can pray and have their sins repent.

That isnt a good reason for why he should be classified as a sinner since birth, also there is no need for loving Jesus just because youre imperfect.

>Debating with retarded christfuck in a thread
>Literally retarded
How do I originally end this fuckwit? They haven't got a clue what science is beyond a high school level and are employing the strangest mix of hypocrisy, double standards, and mental gymnastics I've ever seen.

>Archetypal perfect man
>Instead of using calm negotiation, teaching, love, and compassion, goes apeshit with wrath (deadly sin) on a market
Uh huh, sure.

I think most people like to do this for kicks. Probably bait by OP to spark discussion

Look, it's all very simple:

Belief in
>God, ie the Creator of us and this universe
>Prophethood, that God has chosen certain people to be leaders and receive instructions
>revelation, the moral laws and commands decided by God
>a day of judgement, where people will be judged based on how they lived(goes back to revelation in terms of laws etc)

This is what every Prophet believed in and preached. But wait, now come christians and say no actually, Jesus claimed something completely opposite, namely that
>Jesus, man, who is fully God, died, and was human, even though he was eternal and divine, somehow, and even though Jesus preached this, christians spent 400 years in confusion, and pretty much 90% of christians are considered today to be heretics because they had the "wrong" understand of what or who Jesus is in relation to God
>Jesus died for your sins(even though he's eternal). So which sins did he die for? No one knows. Christians can not explain how it is that on one hand Jesus died for your sins, but on the other hand you'll still be judged by them and go to hell if you do any "mortal" sins. So what was the point of the human sacrifice? Nothing.
>No Prophet before Jesus worshipped a triune god or a human body

So christianity as created by saul and the church fathers is evidently false since it's nonsensical and has no basis even in their own scripture, which is contradictory anyway.

Judaism also fails because they claim that prophethood is limited to the children of israel, but that every human is still accountable, even though they received no revelation and jews themselves don't care about teaching goyim.

So in conclusion only Islam can be true since it follows what all the Prophets preached, without rejecting anyone, and without innovating anything knew(man-gods and pantheons etc). It's a religion for the whole world and not just one people.

I think there is historical evidence that he did exist, but regardless it doesn't matter to you or I whether he did or not. As for praying, I suppose a similar comparison would be meditation, its taking time to sit and let whats on your mind wash over you and externalize those thoughts and through that get some peace of mind. Its not about praying and being forgiven and then carrying on as normal. Im sure some retard degens who dont understand their own faith do that but that doesn't make it proper prayer.

The way I understand sin is that sin is being away from God, or not knowing God. A child is not developed, and does not understand the world he lives in yet. Therefore he doesn't know God and has sin.

>No Prophet before Jesus worshipped a triune god or a human body
This is correct and shouldn't have been grouped with the others.

Either way, just looking at it objectively, if you're going to accept abrahamic religions to be true, then Islam is the only one that makes sense. Of course if you reject them all together then that's a different issue. But christianity certainly can not be true, since every argument they would use against Islam, jews already used them against christianity.

Thus I say that even though christians are closer to the truth than atheists, they are more inconsistent in their error.

>god controls exactly how everything will ever happen
>don't believe in him because god decided not to make you believe in him
>die
>go to hell
???

So everything that isnt like God wants it to be is a sin? What a Fucking asshole. Dosent god have the power to just take our free will and make us do the right thing if he wants it so badly?

>be a retard that doesn't understand god
>make an embarassing incorrect self serving judgement to rationalize atheistic nihilism
>die
>go to hell

Personal being is the fall from grace. Being a self is discordant with the reality of everything.

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Its pretty simple. God doesn't have a personality, retards.

>Dosent explain what god actually is
>Dosent provide evidence
>Be a fucking idiot
???

Oh yeah, let's take away free will from my children to force them to love me instead of letting them chose if they love me or not. Tell me more about how your parents force you to love them. Idiot.

Then we should be empty shells? Thats not what my church taught me.

I think you're doing the classic atheistic thing of imaging God is just some big man on a cloud or some dumb shit. God isnt just the creator. His existence implies explicit and objective good and evil, morality as something that is not subjective.

As for the free will. If we had no free will we would basically be unconcious, and this is really the crux of faith, having free will is like having part of God with you. You can look at the world in the way that the other animals can't. This is Adam and Eve eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil at the beginning of the bible. It's a curse and a blessing, but nothing can ever be truly good and divine unless you get to choose it like God does.

Your church is one of the dumb ones though. Also, no.

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>the classic atheistic thing of imaging God is just some big man on a cloud or some dumb shit.
You have christianity to thank for that since they LITERALLY depict God as such. So why are you surprised when atheists from the (previously) christian world imagine him thus? I think it's unfortunate that atheists generalize Abrahamic religions based on church idolatry.

Parents dont demand love from their children, if they are good parents then it will cone to them naturally, but Hod always needs his Christians to reinforce that he is good and you should live him. Sure like having my parents remind me every day.

>Tell me more about how your parents force you to love them. Idiot.

by threatening me with violence

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God doesn't have to control how everything will happen, philosophically he only has to be the creator and everything else just follows naturally. Check out Aquinas' arguments for more on that. Great rational arguments for the existence of God that doesn't rely on faith.

>let's take away free will

Free will doesn't exist. It's incoherent as a concept and isn't even mentioned in the Bible.

You're right, but that image is originated in the middle ages and that kind of thing. Same as the idea of Hell as a place where demons poke you with pitchforks. What you're doing is peering in from the outside of the religion and seeing all that imagery but not knowing any of the substance.

>not knowing any of the substance.
except they literally worship Jesus' human body, and their places of worship are filled to the brim with idols.

I've never been sure of anything and if that's how I'm judged to suffer for eternity then I was playing a rigged game from the start. I don't like the idea of somebody holding a loaded gun to my afterlife and killing it if I don't pick the right religion out of thousands of possible ones.

Fuck faith. I wont believe in god unless I can trust him. God should fully expect humans to reject his existence if he doesnt want to provide VALID, IRREFUTABLE, EVIDENCE WITH ONLY ONE INTERPRETATION AND NOT FLIMSY AND INDIRECT TRASH for it.

see It's not thousands, it's only really two worth considering since they're the ones that have any rational basis and actually tell you that you have to follow it. From the atheist perspective, if the Abrahamic religions are false then it doesn't really matter.

Free will as a phrase isn't. The idea is.
God NEEDS anything?
Ha. You're foolish mate.

Sin is passed on through Adam my dude, not Eve. Basic theology desu

>God NEEDS anything?
Christians tend to be more focused on emotional pleas instead of reason, hence you see them shout things like

>God loves everyone including the sinners!
which sounds good and all, but then when you consider that sinners will be sent to hell for an eternity then you see the contradiction. Same with the idea that jesus died for your sins and so forth.

And like above, someone made the mistake of saying that God needs christians.

Well thats another odd thing. God keeps demanding love from his children (by threatening them all with eternal torture), even though he doesnt need any of it.

Yeah, but the existence of the imagery does not mean that the literal existence of God means he must be a man on a cloud. Its just a poetic way of thinking about him.

He rose from the dead, homie, what more do you want?

I would argue that baptism is not required. It is simply a public display of faith. God said it is a "good thing to have," not a commandment.

>I'm right and everybody else is wrong.

It's all so tiresome.

Is it just me or has there been a rise in religion threads lately? Whatever the case I think it's good. Out with traps in with religion.

Sinners being sent to Hell is a mercy. They cannot stand the presence of God because He is perfect and so Hell is preferable to them. Also even Hell is better than non-existence, as was proven by St. Thomas Aquinas. This is why we say God loves sinners.
Jesus died for our sins, but if we do not repent then we reject this gift and thus incur all debt for sin, and the debt for mortal sin is eternal damnation.

Is there any credible documentation of that event? No.

Yes but you're saying the same thing as an atheist no? I'm just saying you can narrow down the "thousands" of religions. Right of the bat you can cross out any religions that don't even exist anymore. Then just look for the ones that actually tell you that you need to follow it. You certainly won't be dealing with thousands of religions any more.

Is eye-witness testimony considered admissible evidence in the court of law? Yes. Yes it is.

It's very simple. All goyim go to hell.
T. God's chosen

Seriously, what sins did Jesus die for?? There is nothing you can be responsible for when you just came out of your mothers womb.

>God because He is perfect
God stopped being perfect when he took on human weaknesses.

>Jesus died for our sins, but if we do not repent
Repent from what? That's right, our sins, because Jesus' dying never atoned for any of that.

>The idea is.

Where? There are tons of verses that are against the idea that free will exists in so many Biblical scriptures.

First letter to the Ephesians (several verses). Exodus 9:12. Many more.

The concept of libertarian free will is not even coherent to begin with, and compatibilist "free will" is utter sophistry, or as Kant called it, a "wretched subterfuge". It is so ludicrously NOT what "free will" is supposedly about. Compatibilism is taking something as closed to diametrically opposed to the incoherent libertarian notion free will as something can be to something that is incoherent, slapping "free will" on it, and then playing dumb about it. I can't believe it's the predominant view in Western philosophy, even among atheists.

Not when the eye witness is unknown and the testimony itself transmitted by unknown people until some centuries later when someone decided that the witness was Mark.

Original sin is not enough to damn a person but with the stain of original sin a man cannot enter Heaven. This is why Baptism is necessary. God's perfect Justice cannot allow men with original sin to enter Heaven. Unbaptized infants who die go to Limbo.

I give you a gift, you reject it.

Jesus gives you the gift of salvation. You continue to sin.
Jesus dying on the cross doesn't mean there's no more sin. It means the original sin was eliminated and no longer kept people from going to heaven. If people continued to sin , that's their problem.

Keep in mind all witnesses are dead by now, they havent been confirmed to be at that place at that time and the bible has been altered for hundreds of years, and you could easily make all of it up.

None. Even if you're a christian your sins are not atoned for by jesus death, since you'll still go to hell for sinning.

Actually the eye-witnesses are known. They include the 12 Apostles, many women saints (including Mary the Mother of God) and Paul.

Pretty sure an atheist says that they are fake. I'm just saying that I'm not sure. You're referencing biased religious texts and trying to hedge your bets, I'm just saying that I don't want to choose if it doesn't feel right.

When you are a newborn baby you basically did nothing so far, therefore there is nothing you can be responsible for, therefore you cannot have sins, unless you believe that the sins of Adam were passed onto us, which is completely unfair because we are not responsible for him or Eve.

>Jesus gives you the gift of salvation
No he didn't, God did when He sent revelations, which had taken place long before Jesus. Jesus supposed crucifixion adds exactly ZERO to that.

There is no inherited "original sin". Adam was forgiven by God, since no human sacrifice is needed for that. I'm responsible for my own sins, not Adam's.

Ironically, you're saying that God was a sinner until Jesus died kek. Since he would still have had the original sin.

There are many verses where God presents people with Choices.

Have they been confirmed to be at that place during that time? What did they look like? What did they do before and after the event?

>God stopped being perfect when he took on human weaknesses.
Wrong. Man's form is perfect. Adam was perfect before the fall. This Jesus, who was no son of Adam and had no sin, was perfect.

>Repent from what? That's right, our sins, because Jesus' dying never atoned for any of that.
Jesus' death atones for all sin and most importantly for original sin. It openned the gates of Heaven. You need to repent because if you reject a gift you cannot take part in the gift. If I give you a thousand dollars and you throe it in the trash you cannot say I didn't give you a thousand dollars simply because you no longer possess it. I thought atheists were logical, that is basic logic.

God gave you free will so that you can make that decision user. Religion is ultimately about faith, and while I think there is plenty of evidence and rewards to be reaped for believing, You do have to make a leap of faith.

This is faulty reasoning. A lot of religions are along the same lines and really only differ culturally. The point is you either have faith or you don't. Hell and Heaven are metaphors for the state of your life.

Take God out of the picture and just look at cold hard reality, if you commit a "sin", or several sins, or many sins since you have no belief in God. Will you not be in hell? If you spend your life drinking and partying and overall just waste your life and on your deathbed realise you fucked up big time are you not gonna be experiencing eternal torture? (eternal as far as christians believe in the permenance of the soul). It's just a reflection on cold, hard reality. You either have awareness of God (that being the ultimate divine force of good) and want to be as close to that as possible or you reject it and see what happens to you.

God was a sinner until Jesus died. The road to that assumption must have been bumpy I believe.

We don't have 12 testimonies. We have a limited number of gospels which suffer from the problem I just laid out in they would never be accessible in any court.

What I meant was that when you say all religions are fake then you're pretty much doing the same thing, ie you're correct and everyone else is wrong.

>You're referencing biased religious texts and trying to hedge your bets
No because one religion is unique.

The Bible has not been edited, we have biblical scrolls from 1700 years ago that are exactly the same as now. Do you have any evidence that Peter, the apostles, and Paul were not in Israel at the time of Christ? Because if you have that evidence you should call the Smithsonian you'll be world famous.

What about that part where God sends all non-believers to hell?

Jesus(God) was a sinner for over 30 years ie up until his crucifixion. Damn, Adam's sin was so bad even God suffered from it! Should we be hating the devil or Adam more?

it's a form of control. people always want to try and control others, he who controls the most wields the most power. everyone is always vying to be the one everyone else listens to and looks up to. humans have some fucked up god complex for some reason.

A chess program makes "choices", but that doesn't mean it has "free will". The choices are based on the nature of the program; it does what it was programmed to do. The program cannot act contrary to its nature, and there is nothing in the Bible that suggests a man or woman can do that either.

>This is faulty reasoning.
Why? My point is that you can set out by first looking at those religions that claim exclusive salvation.

Yes. There is no doubt that Paul, Peter, and the apostles were in Syria at that time.

The Gospels contain the eye-witness testimony of the 12 apostles and many more. This is known fact. They definitely are admissible in court we ask people to swear on the Bible when in court...

The absolute retardism im this comment. Jesus is not human you ...freak. he takes on a human body. He has no sin. Are you this thick or just baiting?

Ok, so if I rember we started counting years since the birth of jesus, so thats 1700 years off and no way to prove he was born.

What be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, because any other possibility is just as likely.

>The Gospels contain the eye-witness testimony of the 12 apostles and many more.
If I say that 10000 people witnessed an event then that's still just one witness until you bring those others forth. '

>we ask people to swear on the Bible when in court
I doubt everyone who swears on a bible in court believes every story in the bible.

Please. Show. The evidence. I need to see it.

No, because Jesus was not a son of Adam. Jesus had none of Adam's DNA. He was concieved by thr Holy Spirit which supplied the other half of his chromosomes. His human sidr came from Mary and ultimately from Eve, but Eve did not pass on her sin. Only Adam passed on his sin, through his genetic lineage. Therefore Christ was not a sinner and was not bound by Original sin. Basic theology m8

According to christianity Jesus is fully human and fully God. That's pretty basic christian theology mate.

There's no proof that a man or woman can act against their nature. Their nature in this case being what?

You claimed thr bible was edited. It was not. I just proved it was not.

Go look it up, this is all verifiable fact.

Interviews with primary sources, even if written by a secondary source, are considered primary sources. Basic historological principle.

That's not how it works. Mary would have DNA from both Adam and Eve. What you are saying is essentially that only men have the original sin and not women.

Not that it matters because christian theology makes it clear that Jesus is FULLY MAN anyway.

He is fully human because he is in a human body but if you realised, his body has 0 ties to any other of Adam's descendants. What makes him fully "human" is the body in which he is put, nothing else. If I put you in a car, you are driving the car but are you a car?

But the Bible was edited. Why do you think there are so many different versions? Which version was the very, very first?

And also, post a link to the source. Again, I wanna see for myself.

Don't view 'sin' as you did something wrong.

'Sin' is merely the blanket term within Christianity to describe the actions and thoughts we participate in that cause us suffering. For instance, the 'original sin' was in fact the human desire to 'separate' things. That was what happened once Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge. They became aware of themselves separate God/oneness. We categorize and operate under 'signs.' We place our feelings and actions within this realm, a realm that causes suffering. If we re-unite with God, then we are no longer seeing the world through a distorted lens. Once we see things as they truly are can we then become reconnected with God. In Buddhism, this is the wisdom realizing emptiness.

>his body has 0 ties to any other of Adam's descendants.
He was in the womb of one of Adam's descendants.

Mary did not have the Y chromosome. Women do not pass on original sin, but they do inherit it from their fathers. All men and women have human fathers except Christ who was born of a virgin. Thus he did not possess original sin. Anyway, Mary was the Immaculate Conception and was not bound by Original Sin either.
Dude this is really basic stuff

Their neurochemistry, the structure of their nervous system (including the brain), all their history, the situation they find themselves in at the present, the qualities of their soul (assuming the existence of souls and that such souls have some influence on human behavior), and things of that ilk.

Of course, additionally if God is omniscient he already knows every aspect of every human's nature, and everything they will ever do, with absolute certainty. Accepting God's omniscience in and of itself logically requires jettisoning metaphysical libertarianism.

You don't owe Jesus anything, you only owe Jesus something if you want to go to heaven, faggot.

How are you guys so stupid

There are many translations, but we still have the Septuagint and the Vulgate and they remain "unedited" and even the translations are usually superficially different and not actually different. Literally no historical scholar will claim the Bible was "edited" because there are many translations.

God's omniscience stops you from making your own choices because he already knows what choices you will make.
The absolute mental challenge.

The Virgin Mary was a goddess. This occurred once she became pregnant without having sex. She was no longer related to any other woman. She became a god because of that fact. Women are (in Jung's terms) searching for completeness and Mary sacrificed that to carry the God-child. Go read Carl Jung.

Then God doesn't know what it feels like to be a sinner, which every human had been. Wasn't the entire point of God's incarnation to feel what it is to be human?