If you are against animal cruelty, you should go vegan

The only instance where you should be killing humans is in self-defense. Though, humans are separated from animals for the distinct consciousness that they possess.

just replace the Holocaust with the Holodomor.

>Vegans think they aren't cruel
>Farmland displaces existing animals
>Pesticides and herbicides
>If you support roads you support roadkill
>Water diverted for agriculture is denied to animals

Look OP. Your views on morality are no good.

Even as a vegan you are causing unnecessary suffering. Crueler to an extent than the industrial meat consumers.

Nature is cruel op. For some things to live others must die.

we're talking about "necessity" not a "reason". When we don't have to kill animals to feed ourselves, it is then "unnecessary" to do so.

Potatoes, beans, rice, pasta, etc are some of the cheapest foods in the world. It only gets expensive when you buy the specialty stuff.

Same person, just continuing my rant. Not to mention, you comparing an animal to a human. because in this world, not everything can be 100% sheltered all of the time, and this is the reason we survived as the dominant species. BECAUSE WE ATE FUCKING ANIMALS. But sure, I will give you the fact that animals are amazing creatures. But like user just said () being vegan is killing animals

>What differentiates humans and animals
They're not human and therefore lesser

also, meat is cheaper than plants where I live, as well as the majority of america. Good old farmland country.

Not everyone can simply quit eating meat and do nothing but eat vegetables and fruits. That would be a living hell for them.

let's bring it back to "needlessly" killing animals. X amount of animals need to die in order for civilization to advance (e.g. roads). Buying steak is unnecessary/needless.

Also, unless you live in riceland then living off just 6 different vegetables is pretty shit

I eat pretty much everything you do, just the vegan version. You don't have to eat just lettuce, there are vegan meats, ice creams, cheeses, etc.

Hitler did nothing objectively wrong, since there is no objectivity in the world.

As I said to I eat pretty much everything you do, just the vegan version. You don't have to eat just lettuce, there are vegan meats, ice creams, cheeses, etc.

There is nothing truly right or wrong in the world. Going vegan doesn't mean shit. Not until all humans are dead could 'animal cruelty' stop. And even then it wouldn't stop. You know why? Because animals are cruel to each other. Try telling an alligator to go vegan. Let me know how that works for you.

I agree, morality is subjective. Not sure what you're getting at.

Meat is cheaper than, for example, beans, rice, and potatoes? Those are some of the cheapest foods in the world.

Ok, I'm just going to solve all of this confusion. (I'm BTW) I said, in an earlier reply, that in the majority of North America, UK and EU also, Vegan alternative foods are EXPENSIVE!! Like 7 dollars for a litre of milk!

That does sound like hell.

Also, Hitler was right, even if you're too much of a brainlet to see that. Don't believe jewish lies.

Yes they are the cheapest foods in the world, but when you get to buying things like lettuce, tomatoes and yes beans and rice too, It is so ungodly at the price you have to pay for a meal as compared to a 3 dollar burger at your local McDicks.

If an animal isn't a human it's okay to needlessly kill it?

Say blacks and whites were a different species, would it be okay for blacks to kill whites?

Say there was an equally or more intelligent alien species, would it be okay to kill them needlessly?

I understand where you are coming from, but Blacks and Whites are actually the same species.

Oh thank fuck OP may be gone

Just replace Hitler/the Holocaust with the Holodomor

Can we not do hypotheticals? You'd be laughed out of any intro to ethics/debate/philosophy course

Hypothetically, if eating a vegan diet was cheaper than eating animal products, would you go vegan?

They pretty much taste identical to the "original version".

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The only vegan I respected was my physics teacher when I was just starting out college. The man knew his stuff. Eating at a lower level of the food chain is thermodynamically more efficient by an order of magnitude. He wasnt too preachy about it, just gave advice to those who wanted to reduce their footprint. Biked everywhere and generally avoided unnecessary waste.

The vegans against eating meat for cruelty reasons forget that nature is the most cruel and fucked up place. Wild cats will chew babies to attract the parents to get more food. At least with factory farms we can provide a paradise of food, water and shelter as well as a potentially (mostly) painless death.

Animals don't comprehend morality, so we can judge them for their actions. Nor can we base our morality off of animals. "Sharks eat meat, therefore humans can too" "Sharks practice infanticide, therefore humans can too"

>The vegans against eating meat for cruelty reasons forget that nature is the most cruel and fucked up place. Wild cats will chew babies to attract the parents to get more food. At least with factory farms we can provide a paradise of food, water and shelter as well as a potentially (mostly) painless death.

Watch Earthlings or any footage of slaughterhouses

hitler did nothing wrong

oregoblin

As I've said a couple of times now, just replace Hitler/the Holocaust with the Holodomor.

I'm not talking about taste, I'm talking about the lack of choice you're given in different things. Restricting yourself like that to me sounds like a living hell.

What do you mean restricting? You eat the same foods, but the vegan versions.

Agree with this.

>Nature is cruel op. For some things to live others must die.

The circle of life. But from a vegan morality perspective, what puts human lives above plants? We basically enslave plants strictly for our consumption. Hypocrites.

it's not wrong to needlessly kill plants, but it is wrong to kill animals (humans included) because plants aren't sentient, whereas humans are. If plants were sentient, then yeah it'd be wrong to needlessly kill them

I'm sure you can prove said consciousness? In terms of quantum physics you're very existence and actions are all entirely predetermined and warped beyond you're greatest imaginations. You're life isn't your own and you aren't alive. In fact something might be eating you right now and you wouldn't even know it.

With that said, and accepted by mainstream science, how do you justify killing animals when you can't even consciously comprehend you're own consciousness?

Your*
-You are

I agree with the self defense thing. If "a lower level of consciousness" is the trait, apply that back onto a human context. Is it okay to needlessly kill retards?

Factory farmed food is all garbage. Whether it's meat or plants. If you support one you support the other.

Big agriculture mass produced< buying local, organic raising/ growing it yourself

Can 6ou prove plants aren't sentient beings?

We don't need to kill animals but it's easier for nutrition and shit

If you're a non-vegan you can eat vegan foods just for fun, but if you're a vegan you have to only restrictly eat vegan foods. Also there isn't that much of a difference in brand opportunities when you're strictly going for vegan only foods.

Well if you don't believe in free will then yes you can say that we aren't conscious but I do believe in free will and you have no way in proving that animals have consciousness either.

Retards have consciousness. Animals do not.

They run from danger. They inherently want to be alive. That's all the consciousness one needs to see in order to feel empathy. A lower form of intelligence does not equate to a loss of right to live. What kind of savage are you.

Instincts =/= Consciousness

>They inherently want to be alive.

So we should allow them to live. Being raised for food allows far more individuals to live than the wild could support.

By eating animals, we grant the gift of life to them.

really love how vegans compare animals to humans

nah, humans are top of the food chain, we are the smartest beings in existence, we can do whatever we want, suggesting that animals are even on the same ground as humans is fucking stupid, please kill yourself if you genuinely believe animals are our equals

>Implying you posses any form of consciousness beyond your instinctual dream-state

Nature, and the animals that surround them are less intelligent. Death caused by being killed by other animals is cruel, gruesome even, but the predator is equally unintelligible. It's horribly wrong and terrible and fucked beyond imagination, but that's what this life has offered for them. Not by our hands, though. We as the supreme species, given alternatives, should not enact said grotesque behaviors when avoidable. For that is what it means to be conscious. Awakened to responsibility of ones actions. Blindly killing for taste means you are unconscious and inconsistent by the rules created by your very own sentience.

I do, in fact. And I live with my consciousness every single waking moment. I'm sorry you have to resort to bending logic, reasoning, and the truth in order to push your agenda but vegan life just isn't for me, m8.

I think this response unequivocally provides sufficient evidence that meat gained protein does not make for intelligence.

If raising animals for food gives them the chance to exist (albeit not for very long in some cases) and a kinder death than they would have had in the wild, how is this a bad thing?

I'm a strict vegetarian. I only eat vegans

>hasn't convinced anyone thus far
>proceeds to calling others retarded
you're only setting yourself up to be mad, m8

I'll give you a poor example, one I regret using but It applies. If given the oppertunity by greater beings to either live with a group of people on a compound where you'll all eventually be killed and eaten, or alternatively offered a chance at surviving out in the wilds (with predators). What would you choose? Forgot the conciousness argument neither of us can prove anything either way. We as a species are infantile and don't understand our own bodies, let alone our minds. So, what would you personally choose? Would you accept the concept of having you and your family killed and eaten?

Poor example, sure, but you get the idea.

You can't break stupid. I could get a team of the top minds of this planet and you still would refuse and argue the reality of your consciousness when you yourself have no idea what you even are.. That's your choice ultimately. I'm not trying to convert you. I'm responsible for my actions and you yours. But as a sentient, conscious being, I view killing and death as unnecessary in all situations. I yearn for a day when those concepts are abolished by progress. I'm not holding my breath, though.

No amount of over-processed, genetically altered, laboratory produced meat substitute is going to change the fact that the modern world is full of cruelty and suffering. Just about every aspect of our daily lives has in some way caused the suffering of other animals. There is no escaping it.

>Is it wrong to needlessly kill animals?
No
>Is it wrong to needlessly kill humans?
Yes
>Which differences between humans and animals allow you to make this distinction?
How about the fact that humans are capable of founding entire civilizations, creating unimaginable technology, developing thousands of complex tongues, venturing beyond this planet. Our utility as functioning members of modern society supersedes that of becoming food. What will animals provide for us being alive rather than being dead and feeding us? You could make the case that dogs and cats make great companions, which is fine. But wild animals which provide massive amounts of food have no reason to be kept alive other than ''muh morals!!1''. Which I find ironic, as the very people that support this degeneracy are atheists.

Oh trust me I understand this all too well. as stated in my previous post I am in no way trying to convert anyone. My ideals are my own. My choices are my own. They will make no change beyond knowing to myself that I held true to my beliefs. It's a cruel, horrible world and hope is nothing but a childish dream.

>you're just stupid
>doesn't know the difference between instinct and consciousness
i think you're just projecting m8

>If given the oppertunity by greater beings to either live with a group of people on a compound where you'll all eventually be killed and eaten, or alternatively offered a chance at surviving out in the wilds (with predators). What would you choose?

Let me rewrite that for you.

If you were given the choice between starving and struggling for food, followed by a painful death as you were eaten alive, or a moderately comfortable existence, but knowing that someday a quick death would come, which would you chose?

Cowslip's warren is comfortable, and I suspect many people would pick that option. There is no shame in it.

But I am not against animal cruelty and evidently neither is the majority of the populus. We all know we have animal farming machines that subject them to horrible conditions and yet eat the resultant product and fully support that practice in the process.
Why should I give consideration to the feelies of an animal?

>How about the fact that humans are capable of

>Genocide
>Manufactured Death
>Hate
>Oppression
>Poverty
>Standing on the backs of the many for the few
>Destroying the foundation of all life

To name a few, and again, a lower form of intelligence does not equate to a loss of right to live.

It's highly opinionated, but I personally amongst many others would fight to live life on our own. Life is the one choice you never want decided for you. Although you may die out in the wilds, a short life in comfort only to be killed for your flesh will always leave you with regret in your final moments. "What if I was one of the ones who survived." When we can live without killing, we should never take the choice of life from lesser beings. If we are ever to amount to anything as a species we should first learn the value and frailty of life.

>live within reasonable distance of grocery store
>Plant crops using seeds from last year's harvest-$0
>Raise chickens- $15/month feed
>Free eggs>store bought
>Raise meat chickens- $17/month feed (I like em thiiicc)
>Depend on muh gubmint for literally water and power
>Wouldn't need to if it wasn't a crime in my state
>Self sustenance>Whole foods

Fight me.

>as stated in my previous post I am in no way trying to convert anyone. My ideals are my own. My choices are my own.
I can respect that. And in a way I can see where you're coming from user. It's difficult for me to not get irritated with both sides of this argument. Things only exist the way they do to support this toxic sytem we are all stuck in. I think most here would agree that they are not a fan of said system. We went from hunting and gathering to farming to buying shit from the grocery store that who knows where it came from or what's really in it. With things the way they are, I 5hink we may be at the point of no return.

And I too see your side. We as humans live short, (mostly) miserable lives. Any and all pleasures, as few as there are, can't be let go of without immense sacrifice. Both mentally and physically. It's a strain. I grew up surrounded by hatred from all facets and through that I found compassion beyond anything I had or should of known. I'm not saying you are compassionate, not at all. Personally, I just have a strong affinity with anything that has had to deal with suffrage or oppression. Animals that are used for food instantly became a heartbreak point for me. There was no going back. This choice is as ingrained in my being as my need for oxygen.

I am not saying you aren't compassionate******

Not op and also not a vegan. But I think the proper thing would be maybe at least having some self respect. Even if you don't give a shit about the animals. Low quality meat pumped fulled of antibiotics and raised in disgusting conditions isn't healthy friend. Take care of yourself.

>Tfw I see a diabetic drinking diet soda every day instead of switching to water

yesterday I hit a raccoon with a baseball bat and then shot it in the neck

I didn't have to do it, but I did it anyway because fuck you. I didn't eat it btw

Veganism is a meme. Vegetarianism is the reasonable choice

You make it seem like if we stopped eating animals we would have to cover the earth with farms, but what ignore is that a huge part of what we cultivate nowadays goes to feeding cattle. And I mean a huge part.
If that food were used to feed humans instead of animals in a meaningless cycle for a meaningless demand, we'd be better off.

Nice kangaroo conclusion faggot.
Go back to your safe space.

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>feelies
The thing with these argument is that most of the time that is precisely what is being discussed
It's useless, you can discuss feelings and ethics ad nauseam but science doesn't even have a complete knowledge of our own brain or that of animals. Discussing feelings is waste of time
What should be discusses is the physical, objective way the meat industry affects us.
This user makes a good point in that red meat is more often then not comparable to junk food. Without even considering that it's cancerous by it's own nature.
The other aspect being environmental impact, which we won't be able to ignore forever.

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I don't even care about people
why the fuck should I care about animals?

I don't minmax my lifestyle to perfect every aspect of health and wellbeing and extend my lifespan and reduce my risk of X bad thing by the most I possibly can. Neither do you, I like the taste of bacon :)
There is no argument that can convince me animals ought not to be killed. Enjoy your kale smoothies tho

Don't strawman, nobody ever said you have to do that. Quite simply that is one objective argument people should make instead of muh feelings.
Just like the goal of vegetarinism or veganism isn't to go back to the stone age just so we stop polluting. It is a calculated sacrifice of your own pleasure in order to be more respecting of the environment that we WILL have to worry about preserving, sooner or later. As long as society will keep existing pollution will persist but that doesn't mean cutting some of it is meaningless, especially once technology will allow us to solve that kind of problem
>le :)
Is this Facebook?

This was me #
Most people don't minmax their lifestyle. Your not alone. And trust me, I like bacon too. You're gonna see things how you want probably regardless of what I say. But I just think it's odd how disconnected we have become from our food. But I guess in a world of instant gratification it's easy to just say I want what I want and I want it now regardless of any repercussions to myself or others. Just goes to show the state of the world we live in.

The "no no" option he just calls you a liar, that's not a valid argument at all. Don't waste your time making a meme image if you're not going to fully justify everything in it.