Why do people take steroids unless it helps them in their sport profession? Is it the ultimate form of insecurity...

Most of them I meet are anxious and just put on a big man act. If you have valid reasons to take it then no problem but leisurely taking it to get bigger is clearly just a mask of underlying issues

>Why do people do things that I don't want to do?
>Why don't people just stick to the absolute bare necessities?
>Why do people take enjoyment in things that they enjoy like fucking scrubs?
>Why do people have hobbies?

Being a professional bodybuilder also means bad genetics, aspergers and latent homosexuality though.

>t. bad genetics, aspergers and latent homosexuality

What do you really know concerning roids?

Wearing it in heavy layers every day from you're young generally isn't good for your skin

>Once you stop roiding all your roid gainz go away anyway
Depends on the substance, the amount, the cycle length and the amount of mass and strength gained. Tren as an example gives you permanent increased strength when you come off of it. The strength and size you gain from a cycle will also be easier to get back to once you hop off, compared to getting there without any roids

true in 99.999999% of cases

It's almost like there's side effects of drug use. Who would have thought?

Attached: SteroidAbuse.png (4381x3262, 648K)

Because they like a certain style that is only attainable with steroids. It's like asking why goths dress in black, dudebros dress in tanks, and Indians dress in polos and dress shirts at the gym.

You're not countering the argument with your false equivalence.

Not good for your skin =/= dangerous. There's no point in comparing the two.

>It's almost like

You better get back to R3ddit right now before you get hurt

>Newfag projects his Reddit insecurity on to other posters

It's almost like you're a faggot. No wait, you definitely are.

Do you even facetiousness?

No, it's nearly impossible to tell someone pretending to be retarded from an actual retard if they don't make it clear they are kidding.

500mg test

>put less effort in
>waste less time
>look better
>lift more
>higher sex drive
>more energy
>better mood
>no sides

wow really makes you think

My Drill Sergeant always told me if you aren't cheating you aren't trying, and I spend too much time in the field to get all the gym time I need to reach the level I want to be at.

Attached: 1525582890304.png (508x736, 95K)

your drill sargeant was a mediocre fool and that's probably the reason why he is in fact a drill seargeant

>>no sides
Really makes me think. I'm going to laugh when you shut your test production down because you have no idea what you are doing. Any common steroids have permanent side effects.

You only get better mood and energy if you had low test to begin with. It can actually make your mood worse and some people get very emotional on it.

>I'm going to laugh when you shut your test production down because you have no idea what you are doing
Do you understand what PCT is and the difference in hormonal impact depending on the person in question?
>Any common steroids have permanent side effects.
Largely depends on the dosage and the amount of time you spend on the cycle

>he needs to poison himself slowly to make up for shit genetics

>It can actually make your mood worse and some people get very emotional on it.
i thought that was a side effect of increased estrogen? I know injecting test increases estrogen, but aren't there like estrogen blockers you can take?

>but aren't there like estrogen blockers you can take
There are, but you don't want to actually use them. Estrogen is needed for optimal muscle building and joint health, so you don't want to use an AI unless necessary. Some people don't have a need for an AI and receive little side effects.

Yeah, is the same thing, once you gear your skin will get itchy.

Dumb faggot.

Actually u will still be bigger as a natty after u stop steroids because of muscle memory. Assuming ur test returns to normal.

Steroids is a VERY broad category.

These are Androgenic hormones made from cholesterol. Sterol = steroid.

Various steroids have different effects.

Some are very mild in the negatives health wise, and some are very bad for you.

Then there is the dose dependent issue.

Most guys could use 250mg - 500mg of testosterone weekly indefinitely with the only other drug needed as an ancillary being an AI in the correct dose. They might need to donate blood every couple months, but BUT so long as they did enough cardio and ate healthy their cholesterol and blood pressure could stay good too.

Nandrolone is another fairly safe one. It appears to cause vascular damage at high doses in rats, but this has not been observed in humans. It is highly anabolic and doesn't cause negative behavioral OR cholesterol changes at reasonable doses, say 400mg weekly. Erectile dysfunction can occur in some individuals. Usually it's the wrong ratio of testosterone to it, or if testosterone is used with it more of it converts to estradiol and more AI is needed. Some guys even have success using Nandrolone at high doses solo, with no ancillaries and no or minimal side effects.

When it comes to the really harsh stuff we are talking toxic orals or very heavy androgens. Stuff like Anadrol, Halo, or Trenbolone. If you don't compete then fuck ever touching that shit.

Now, lets say you way a life that you just cannot have naturally. You want to look stronger than most other guys, and like you obviously lift. To do so naturally your life needs to revolve around bodybuilding.

Again to do so naturally your life needs to revolve around bodybuilding.

With say 500mg Test and 400 Deca on blasts, and cruising at 250mg most of the time you can literally do a bro split. You're never sore. You always have high energy. You look very strong, and can even be ripped if your diet is disciplined.

More time to invest into other things and better results and quality of life.

Attached: Photos of “The Pump Is Real 🦍 Mein Gesicht sagt mehr als tausend Worte☝🏼Jedes Training am (589x589, 58K)

You can also dose the AI right so that it controls your estradiol and doesn't bottom it out

In most cases the testosterone does return to normal in time. Ultra rare that it doesn't.

Sometimes in older guys it doesn't, over 35, but many of them might have just had low T due to age anyway, so they are kinda going back to their normal. If they are in that situation and done having kids, well TRT it up then.

>guy posts as if he's the authority on the subject
Just fuck off. Running 500mg test-e as well and and i've had nothing but positive gains. Majority of people who are on have a better outlook on life, too.

Test isn't going to make you an emotional cranky baby. Others may.

Just because you're opposed to them, don't exaggerate the negs because of that.

This. Moderate user of a safer steroid. My guess is you don't look like a freak, but you get much better gains than a natty.

Am I right?

Pretty much. Recover better and feel more energized

Yep yep that's it. Mild use ftw

Yes, I understand what PCT is. No, the person I was replying to obviously doesn't if he wants to state there's no side effects. PCT exists to address side effects, namely suppressed natural production that may, in some people, never work again. Each cycle increases the chance that you will forever be low test when off, even with proper PCT.
For the most part, but AIs then have side effects on top of that, particularly from steroid users who are lowering their estrogen levels from very high amounts.
>Running 500mg test-e as well and and i've had nothing but positive gains.
Babby's first cycle, I guess you're now an expert on steroid use.
>Majority of people who are on have a better outlook on life, too.
No, that isn't true. Testosterone doesn't to much to increase mood in healthy individuals. Proven by studies which you clearly haven't read. It does however have a negative effect in some healthy people.
>Test isn't going to make you an emotional cranky baby
They are highly correlated to increased aggression, unstable mood. If you want to see a bunch of unstable people, just come on over to /fraud/.
>Just because you're opposed to them, don't exaggerate the negs because of that.
The "negs" you pretend don't exist, you fucking idiot? You shouldn't be taking steroids if you can't even name the permanent side effects of them. They forever alter your body, beyond increased muscle mass.
What safer steroid? The fact that it's your first cycle and you're doing something other than test only is very telling.

>Ultra rare that it doesn't.
Completely untrue. Do you not even read steroid forums? Countless people get shut down after one cycle, even with PCT. Most steroid users don't use PCT, so the vast majority of users have harmed their natural production, which is what the studies have suggested.

>In before:
>The people that sell me illegal drugs said there is no side effects!

>if he wants to state there's no side effects.
Which can be entirely true, depending on the person and his cycle
>PCT exists to address side effects, namely suppressed natural production that may, in some people, never work again
This is true. However, it's a coin toss, almost. Some never need PCT and have their test baseline actually increase, while others get completely shut down. With that said, it's an absolute minority that experiences severe side effects when running a low dosage
>Each cycle increases the chance that you will forever be low test when off, even with proper PCT.
Again, this depends on so many different factors. Your tone is very absolute, but juicing is a complex endeavour with different outcomes and potential

So, are you personally against roids, or do you just advise caution?

>Countless people get shut down after one cycle, even with PCT. Most steroid users don't use PCT, so the vast majority of users have harmed their natural production
I'd like to see your numbers on that
>which is what the studies have suggested.
Which ones?

Any substance that helps you build skeletal muscle easier is also gonna help you build cardiac muscle. That's why congestive heart failure and hypertrophic cardiomyopathy are more common in steroid users. There's no such thing as a "moderate, safe dose" because every dose comes with a risk.

It's completely false, again permanent changes. That's literally how they work. From changing muscle type to myonuclear and satellite cell numbers, to decreasing testicle size.
>This is true. However, it's a coin toss, almost.
It's not a coin toss, everyone must go through it. The only way to tell if you would have 'bounced back fine' with out it, which would be stupidly dangerous but that's to be expected from group that largely doesn't even do blood tests.
>Again, this depends on so many different factors. Your tone is very absolute, but juicing is a complex endeavour with different outcomes and potential
The chance does increase. It's not to be disregarded because of the factors that influence it. Unless you can figure out every single factor in the first place, which is nearly impossible because there's not a lot of research in the area.
>So, are you personally against roids, or do you just advise caution?
Recreationally? I'm against them. Most people don't have the, uh, personality to use them safety. I'd say 95%+ of all lifters, including steroid users, will stop lifting within five years. They are risking forever needing to be on TRT for gains that are going to be wasted anyway.

Not to mention they just increase muscle dysmorphia for everyone. That said, it's only a matter of time until near side effect free steroids are invented that increase muscle mass even without lifting. At that point we are going to have to figure out what we think men should look like and if extra muscle mass is worth it.

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0161208

There's a fair amount of studies on side effects. There's zero evidence that proper PCT completely protects you from them, but there's also no good research in the area. They likely just slow the testicles rate of permanently decreasing in size and therefore reducing natural levels.

>It's not a coin toss, everyone must go through it.
The outcome sure is. I didn't use PCT after my first cycle, since I wanted to see if my body could bounce back by itself, which it did. I had some PCT in storage, of course. I went back to my pre-cycle hormone levels, and have received no side effects. Anecdotal, of course, but not to be disregarded. >Recreationally? I'm against them
Can I ask why exactly that is?

>I wanted to see if my body could bounce back by itself, which it did
How do you know this? Multiple blood tests for years before and after? Did you measure your testicle size down to the ml? I'm not being a dick, there's no way you could possible know that. What you mean is that there's no apparent permanent side effects, which is different. It's very hard to accurately measure hormone levels. One test wouldn't be accurate enough. Let's say there was a small change, maybe like 50 ng/dL lower on average than you were before. Would it still be worth it knowing that you will have slightly lower testosterone until you die? Keep in mind the effect on mood and libdo from this theoretical change as you get older.

>Can I ask why exactly that is?
The same reason why I'm against transgenders getting their dick lopped off. It's not helping the dysmorphia that sparks use and it's not treating the issue, and probably makes it worse. If you're willing to risk permanent side effects and inject Chinese chemicals into your body for slightly faster rates of muscle gain or go beyond natural development, I think you have issues.

From what I've seen there's a lot of body builders that can't stop wanting to put on muscle, even if they are already Rich Piana huge. The people that 'just want to get up to where they would be naturally' are pretty uncommon and often they start trying to get as big as possible.

>How do you know this? Multiple blood tests for years before and after?
Blood work done multiple times before and after the cycle.
>Did you measure your testicle size down to the ml?
No, and I don't see why you would. As long as they're working proper
>Let's say there was a small change, maybe like 50 ng/dL lower on average than you were before. Would it still be worth it knowing that you will have slightly lower testosterone until you die?
I don't know, that hasn't happened to me. But if it did, I would cruise for the rest of my life. Hell, I might even do that anyway
>It's not helping the dysmorphia that sparks use and it's not treating the issue, and probably makes it worse
Your presumption is that all who take roids do it because of body image. The extra energy and strength is more than enough allure
>slightly faster rates of muscle gain
Nothing slight about it
>From what I've seen there's a lot of body builders that can't stop wanting to put on muscle, even if they are already Rich Piana huge
And those people are on the extreme end of the spectrum.

Is a 3 month, 250 mg test e cycle a potential risk? Of course. Is it likely to permanently fuck you up? I don't think so. But I'm definitely not an expert, so who can say

>Blood work done multiple times before and after the cycle.
And you averaged them out before and after and there's zero difference between the two numbers? In the study I linked above, 50% of former steroid users said they used PCT, still had problems.
>I don't know, that hasn't happened to me. But if it did, I would cruise for the rest of my life.
I don't know why it's common to say 'just cruise'. You're committing yourself to tens of thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of prep work over your life time. Not to mention if any conflict breaks out and you can't get your drugs, then you're basically a eunuch.
>The extra energy and strength is more than enough allure
You don't really get extra energy if you already have a healthy hormone profile, as far as I can tell. Probably some placebo effect there. Strength increase is only about 5-20%. Not enough to make much difference unless you're a professional athlete.
>Nothing slight about it
It is more slight than most people think, considering that you should want to lift for the next 60 years of your life. Most naturals can put on 20 pounds in their first year, versus about 20 pounds from their first cycle, providing they don't have a lot of existing muscle mass. Almost three months, plus PCT time versus 12 months. Second cycle and second year lifting offer diminishing returns, but the average steroid user only has a 22.7(or something) FFMI, which is about what most naturals can expect to reach after a few years of lifting.

>Is it likely to permanently fuck you up? I don't think so.
It still mostly stops natural production when used. I don't think there's much data on this but 250 mg of test is no joke. They have done studies where they completely shut down men's natural production and something like 175 mg was enough to add some lean mass, even without lifting. You can gain 20 pounds of muscle in 12 weeks if you only increase test levels to 1200 ng/ml. I know someone that has done it.

>50% of former steroid users said they used PCT, still had problems.
I have no problems. I have also only done one single cycle, so I am barely comparable to blast and cruisers.
>You're committing yourself to tens of thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours of prep work over your life time
You are vastly overestimating the price of the roids, as well as the time needed to inject them
>You don't really get extra energy if you already have a healthy hormone profile, as far as I can tell
Might be, but placebo can spread its cheeks for you. Other than that, when you are doing better in all physical exercise, that might as well be translated to extra "energy"
>Strength increase is only about 5-20
What? That depends on the dosage and the substance. Unless you're specifically talking about my cycle
>It is more slight than most people think,
Perhaps. Did you know that an untrained guy who does no lifting, but is injected with a start cycle worth of test, actually gains more muscle and strength than a natural who does lift?
>but the average steroid user only has a 22.7(or something) FFMI
What's an average user?
>which is about what most naturals can expect to reach after a few years of lifting.
But they'll never reach the strength and mass of a roider who lifts the same amount of years
>It still mostly stops natural production when used.
Of course, but that says nothing of the likelihood of that continuing once you hop off.
>I don't think there's much data on this but 250 mg of test is no joke
On that we can agree. Roids should not be taken lightly, no matter the dose

>You are vastly overestimating the price of the roids, as well as the time needed to inject them
No, I'm not. Even with cheap illegal steroids, you have blood work that needs to be done and paid for. Trips to the doctors office. Time spent ordering them, picking them up. If you go with an actually safe legal source, it's even more money. TRT can be $2000 a visit if you don't have insurance. Even if it was just $100 a year, that's around $6,000 by the time you die.
>What? That depends on the dosage and the substance
I'm talking about practically any usable testosterone dose and including almost every other PED. If I remember correctly, the records between drug tested power lifting and non drug tested only vary about 10%. Much of it is actually placebo effect. They have done a study where they gave experienced lifters placebo steroids and all their lifts went up and then back down after being told it was fake. It's impossible to know the true increase but those numbers are reasonable. They've also done non-placebo studies on it but I'm not sure of the numbers off the top of my head. I believe the results were similar.
>Did you know that an untrained guy...
Yes, and it's actual muscle too. The common claim is that it's just water weight. There's no real rush to put on muscle, proving you're not trying to become the size of an xbox. Longevity is key.
>What's an average user?
Whatever the mean of their sample size is, I guess. Can't remember what study it was but you should be able to find it if you wanted. Most people are not competent enough to get that big on steroids.
>But they'll never reach the strength and mass of a roider who lifts the same amount of years
Yes, but they shouldn't need to. Everyone should see where they end up first before deciding to use.

>Even with cheap illegal steroids
Compared to all other drugs in the world, a cycle is nothing but pennies. It's very inexpensive.
>you have blood work that needs to be done and paid for
Which takes all of five minutes, and is already included in the taxes I pay (Danish)
>TRT can be $2000 a visit if you don't have insurance
Remember that not everyone lives in America. Why would you go and pay 2000 bucks for TRT? At that point, you would just stick with the drugs you already have.
>Even if it was just $100 a year, that's around $6,000 by the time you die.
By that metric, any hobby or activity that requires money will not have been worth it by the time you die. I'm telling you, user, it's cheap to roid
>I'm talking about practically any usable testosterone dose
How can you make the claim that strength is only increased by 5-20%, when those percentages will depend entirely on how strong you were when you began your cycle.
>the records between drug tested power lifting and non drug tested only vary about 10%
user, are you making fun of me? You realize that those tests are easily bypassed
>They have done a study where they gave experienced lifters placebo steroids and all their lifts went up and then back down after being told it was fake.
I bet that the lifters on roids reaped much better gains than the placebo group
>Everyone should see where they end up first before deciding to use.
That's the wise way to go about it, yes. Train until you reach the upper ends of your achievable gains, and then consider if roiding is for you

>Compared to all other drugs in the world, a cycle is nothing but pennies. It's very inexpensive.
If you're paying pennies for any drug, you shouldn't be using it. 250mg/ml is about $45 in America, and that's shitty Mexican or Chinese test that probably doesn't have to dose correct. That is, what, over $240 a year to cruise and it doesn't include blood work.
>Which takes all of five minutes, and is already included in the taxes I pay (Danish)
That's even worse. Your purposefully harmed your body and it's on the tax payer to support you. Public health care can only be affordable without everyone getting frequent blood work done. They won't even test your male hormone levels in Canada unless they think something is seriously wrong.
>By that metric, any hobby or activity that...
That's not the same thing. You can lift without drugs as a hobby. Drug use is irrelevant to lifting, but I guess it would be similar to buying a $10,000 carbon fiber bike only to bike with your friends, seeing as most steroid users don't compete.
>How can you make the claim that strength is only increased by 5-20%, when those percentages will depend entirely on how strong you were when you began your cycle.
Easy, it works similarly even if your are a novice lifter, not that you should compare strength in anyone that isn't intermediate to advanced because it's more CNS development at that point. I'm sure there's enough studies on this to appease you. It definitely doesn't double your strength, unless you include muscle mass differences, and even then that's questionable. Strength is 90% genetic. I benched 225 within four months of lifting, 285 within six months. That's more than almost every steroid user. All the drugs in the world can't make a very genetically weak person strong.
>You realize that those tests are easily bypassed
Yes, that's another debate, although it does mean they are off when competing and there's plenty of naturals in the under 100 KG weight classes.

(here)
You should read this, if you're interested:
strongerbyscience.com/steroids-for-strength-sports/

>$240 a year to cruise and it doesn't include blood work
Do you honestly think that's a lot of money? And as I said, my blood work is "free". People use more on trivial things like cigarettes
>That's even worse. Your purposefully harmed your body and it's on the tax payer to support you
I also pay that tax
>That's more than almost every steroid user.
A bold claim
>All the drugs in the world can't make a very genetically weak person strong.
They certainly can. A guy on high doses of test and tren are going to outlift you, user

I don't put much stock in that since, as I mentioned before, I don't believe in tested lifters

>oyou honestly think that's a lot of money? And as I said, my blood work is "free".
Yes, it's $14,400 USD over an average lifetime if started at age 20. Even more if you're using clinical grade test which you should be.
>People use more on trivial things like cigarettes
Cigarettes are also expensive and have bad side effects.
>I also pay that tax
Yes, you're still likely taking out more money than you put in, if you consider that you also have to age and will probably spend a fair amount of time in the hospital while you are older. You're practically like someone taking disability when they are not disabled.
>A bold claim
No it's not. The majority of steroid users don't bench 225, let alone 285. They could probably bench 225 but have mental blocks in place and don't need to in order to support their muscle growth. That weight is terrible for power lifting but strong among average gym goers. My bench is higher now, in case it wasn't clear.
>They certainly can. A guy on high doses of test and tren are going to outlift you, user
No, they're not. You can't take someone that is genetically able to only bench 150 pounds and throw steroids at them and expect them to hit 285. Weak people are weak. Strong people are strong. Drugs don't do much to change it, outside a 25% increase at most.
Just read the article, he addresses that specifically.

>Yes, it's $14,400 USD over an average lifetime if started at age 20. Even more if you're using clinical grade test which you should be.
Then we have very different outlooks on life. I wonder what sort of useless things you spend money on?
>You're practically like someone taking disability when they are not disabled.
Somewhat, yes
>You can't take someone that is genetically able to only bench 150 pounds and throw steroids at them and expect them to hit 285.
What an extreme case (who the fuck is genetically destined to only lift 70 kg?). Of course there are exceptions, but filling yourself with test and tren, ESPECIALLY tren, will even the playing field. I don't think you're putting enough stock into the effectiveness of tren. That shit raises your strength potential by a guarantee. As in, all other things being equal, you are able to become naturally stronger after your tren cycle than you could before it.
>Just read the article, he addresses that specifically.
I'm sorry, Aonn, I don't really care to right now. Going on 20 hours with no sleep

>I wonder what sort of useless things you spend money on?
I don't. By the way, that money invested with a 7% interest rate would be $222,000 in 60 years time if you include compound interest. You would be too old to really spend it but the point is you shouldn't consider it just $240. It's $240 minus whatever else you could have done with that money.
>What an extreme case (who the fuck is genetically destined to only lift 70 kg?).
Lots of people. Most people are significantly weaker than you think. A 160 pound bench is 72185/106436 out of global listed power lifting results for Men's raw. These are people who believe they are strong enough to compete. 34251 of them would be weaker.
> tren
I don't think the studies have show that strength increase but I don't want to spend the time to look.
>You are able to become naturally stronger after your tren cycle than you could before it.
That goes for most steroids as well. Minestrone included due to the way it changes your cell count and muscle fiber. It just doesn't increase strength an absurd amount. Regardless, get any new lifter, give them whatever steroids you want and come back in 6 months time to see what they bench. I doubt it would be over 225 on average with near perfect training.

Testosterone* Weird auto correct there.

>I don't
I'm not sure I believe. You must have some vice, however small or insignificant. There's definitely something in your life that you could do without, but that thing may be worth more than the money you would accumulate after 60 years
>You would be too old to really spend it but the point is you shouldn't consider it just $240.
I don't. My point is that what you get out of it, 60 years worth of roids, isn't all that bad. A cheap drug, certainly.
>Lots of people
No, user, that's simply not true. There's not a lot of people whose genetic potential is a one plate bench (Unless we're talking women, I suppose). That might be their current strength, but not potential, and potential is what we were talking about
>I don't think the studies have show that strength increase but I don't want to spend the time to look.
Fair enough. But there's no doubt that tren gives a strength increase. And I do mean no doubt
>That goes for most steroids as well.
But not quite in the same manner, because that's a muscle memory thing. Tren permanently gives you EXTRA muscle fibre. So it's not just an increase in the size and strength of the existing ones, like taking a test cycle is. You cannot naturally increase the amount of muscle fibres.
>get any new lifter, give them whatever steroids you want and come back in 6 months time to see what they bench. I doubt it would be over 225 on average with near perfect training.
Do you actually know anyone who roids, user? Six month is a long time far as a cycle is concerned, and a two plate bench is relatively easy to get to, if we're talking just a one rep max. Again, I think you underestimate roids. Say that we get a new lifter. He can bench 50 kgs. He'll just have to get a strength increase of about 8 kgs a month, and he will have hit a lmao2pl8!!. Considering that he's starting at 50, the first 30-35 kgs increase are going to be very fast, especially on roids. It's entirely within the realm of possibility

>No, user, that's simply not true. There's not a lot of people whose genetic potential is a one plate bench
It's more than one plate, but you have to discount confirmation bias. Almost everyone in the gym is good at lifting and fairly strong. Everyone that wasn't, including a percentage of people labeled "non responders" meaning they don't gain muscle with strength training and some of them even lose muscle, are out of the game. It's a self selected group of people with higher testosterone levels on average, therefore more confident and strong to even go to the gym in the first place.
>Do you actually know anyone who roids, user?
Yes, most of them are weak. Natural lifters who train hard usually beat steroid users. That was the result of this study:
journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105330
You think the average steroid user looks like a strongman competitor or a professional body builder when in reality, they are largely teenagers without that much muscle mass. Most of them do bro splits and are not that strong. Even the /fraud/ threads here have two or three steroid tripfags that don't even look like they lift despite years of steroid abuse and training.
> two plate bench is relatively easy to get to, if we're talking just a one rep max
There's no good data outside of the power lifting results I mentioned, but I imagine that about 50% of the population won't be able to bench that with a few years of training. Genetically unable.
>It's entirely within the realm of possibility
Steroids strength gains largely come from the muscle itself, not the CNS. You'll gain strength fast at the beginning and taper off because of CNS increases. CNS isn't affected by steroids that much. I also benched 225 when I had 13" arms, just to show you how little muscle some people need to be strong. You have a basic genetic limit. Steroids can only aid you so much and it won't overcome your CNS limitation, even if you have the muscle to lift more.

To:
In case it wasn't clear.

Makeup used to be made or mercury and arsenic and really fucked up the women. Yet they still wore it

>Steroids strength gains largely come from the muscle itself, not the CNS.

this has been an obvious physiological fact for well over 100 years, but idiots today still keeping talking about the "CNS" like it means something.

"CNS adaptation" is a bloated and misleading way of saying "skill"

only muscle performs work. ONLY muscle is able to produce force via MUSCULAR CONTRACTION.

You CANNOT get stronger without getting bigger. The initial rapid gains on a particular movement people mistake for "getting stronger" are in fact usually the person simply becoming more SKILLED at the movement being practiced. Yes, surprise, weight lifting is a SKILL. They even made sports around it!

Well, two separate skills. The technical skill of the lift itself and the neurological skill of getting all the muscle fibres activating at the right time.

Arguably androgenics help with the latter to some extent.

they cant, although yes i am aware that idiots widely believe they can despite no evidence.

neurological efficiency is genetic. Which incidentally, is why a chump athlete taking steroids usually remains a chump athlete, while an elite athlete who uses steroids might get that 2% increase in performance that puts him into the championship level.

you two are having a genuinely productive conversation, well done to you both. Seriously, it's remarkable this hasn't descended into ad hominem, and your conversation has been an interesting read.

I've got a question: what do you think about ultra low dose (or microdose) steroid/other PED use? what is the real dosage threshold for an absolute minimum dose?

for example, say a 25-75mg test-e cycle, or going up 100ng/ml from your levels? 15mg cycle, or going up 30ng/ml? less?

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Different guy but, in most circumstances the difference is going to be fairly negligible (it's also hard to ballpark an exact number as androgen sensitivity is somewhat variable as well).

Where it might make a real difference is in someone undertaking the kind of stressful period that will skullfuck your regular hormonal production (like, say, prepping for a bodybuilding contest).

because staying natty is a fucking meme in this day and age, we've all had a war waged on our testosterone since birth and theres only one way to level the playing field

thanks - I'm not really that interested in PDE's that even potentially effect your hormone levels - but I do find it strange that there isn't more of a focus on the minimum effective doses of things, like there is in the nootropics community. Thanks for the response

staying natty is the right choice
some people just lift in their spare time while enjoying life to the fullest without being a pathetic gym rat

im talking about a lot more than lifting weights here

the lowered testosterone is just a male average, ofcourse its going to be lower when half the population is overweight and sitting most of the time

i've been on test for 20 weeks and my gf remarks about how much more stamina i have when we fuck, and how much more positive in mood i am compared to before. tren is the shit you want to look out for, that shit drives people insane when they're on it.

i think the question is why isn't everyone on roids. because just test alone is worth every penny

ITT: a bunch of scared little roid shitters running damage control because they are in denial over the fact that pumping chemicals up their ass will cause them to die in their 40s.

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imagine being this upset about what other people youll never meet do

>600mg test E with PCT
No sides at all. Natural test levels are higher than when I started thanks largely to changing my diet and building a steady exercise and sleep routine when I went on in order to maximize gains.

I lost 70-80lbs of fat in one year and gained 20-30lbs of muscle after two 4 month cycles and one 4 month off period. I'm off now again and have been cutting for a while without my lifts dropping. After 4mos is up, I'll go back on and start doing 3mo cycles until my natural levels do drop and then I'll blast and cruise.

I can't imagine life without test at this point. Your whole life changes.

So... taking roids is a hobby now?

if youre planning to cruise eventually why not just start now?

My natural levels are high enough to not warrant it. I probably have 4-5 years at least before they drop to a level which makes me lose my cycle gains rapidly. I wouldn't hesitate to start if that weren't the case.

t. scared little faggot who knows he won't make it past 41

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>I can't imagine life without test at this point
This is a side effect, its like drugs{well actually roids are drugs so i guess it fits), you become addicted to roids and can't/won't stop, and if you do you will look like a deflated balloon

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so dont stop

Uhhh what about all the phlatates and endocrine disruptors that contribute to breast cancer in makeup?

LMFAO AT "DEPRESSION". I never felt so good in all my entire fucking life until I started taking steroids, but doctor Goldbergenstein would recommend me anti depressants and all other manner of bullshit which never worked at all.

What does a woman spend on make-up in a year? Maybe you live like a hermit OP, but it's not unusual for people to spend many times that on things that make them look good. A moderately successful lawyer is going to have close to $15k in suits just sitting in his closet.

>all the roid monkeys ITT trying to justify their stupid practices

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fucking estrogen

>take someone that is genetically able to only bench 150 pounds

This assumes you can identify "people genetically able to bench 150 lbs" and such people even exist. I highly doubtful the existence of such people and wager anyone benching so little simply hasn't been trained or has an inadequate diet. And if they DO have a decent diet and have been training yet still have a paltry 150 lb lift, they may have very low levels of endogenous testosterone production...which guess what, are going to respond great to roids

I want to start taking some, but have no idea where to start or what to buy

tired of the hungry skeleton look

Guys not being able to perform Rocco Siffredi style at least twice a day without hopping on some type of gear are beyond pathetic. I'm 30, work full time and have children. I still bone my wife every night and often twice a day on weekends. You whimpy millennials are the reason white women are turning to blacks to satisfy their needs.

Yeah, white women are turning to blacks in droves! Oh wait, they are the most loyal of all races. Sheiiiiiiiiiiiiit

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Low dose steroids aren't dangerous either.

People think "oh no the second that test hits your system, you're at risk of dying"

When it's more like "if you allow your body to become so accustomed to the hormone that you cycle off and your test is at 0, then you're at risk of shit"

Even then that takes so long you'd be old enough to qualify for TRT by the time you get there. There have been IFBB Pros who stayed on for over a decade and STILL restored fertility too... turning a switch off isn't necessarily ripping out the socket